Beginnings of Metabolic Bone Disease??

Status
Not open for further replies.

hawk102

Member
Hi, I've had my beardie for a couple of months now, and I'm pretty sure something's seriously wrong with him. He is extremely lethargic, sleeping/basking ALL day. His temperatures are fine (102-108 degrees F on basking spot, 85ish on the cool side), so I don't think that's it. He seems to either not want to move or has trouble moving, which is what's really scary. He used to scamper around and leap onto stuff, but he rarely moves now. I think he's having trouble moving his back legs...?

He doesn't eat as much as he used to (I feed him baby Turkistan roaches dusted with Dragon Dust and a myriad of veggies--kale, carrots, zucchini, lettuce, some cilantro) and doesn't seem to be growing much at all! He will not hunt for roaches (or any feeder bugs, for that matter) on his own--I have to dust them, put them in a ceramic bowl and tilt the bowl towards him, where he'll snatch one or two up. I've tried moistened BD pellets, but he's only eated a few when I've offered them to him from my finger...

I figured he was probably dehydrated (since he never moves from his basking spot), but he didn't seem too interested in drinking water when I dropped some on his snout. Today I placed him in shallow, warm water, which he seemed to enjoy, but he was still very lethargic (though his beard turned black for the first time). He did drink a good amount of that "bath" water at first.

He's currently 6 inches long and housed in a 20 gallon long tank with a 10% RepsiSun UVB bulb only 7-10 inches away from him (depending on where he is on his basking spot). I use either paper towels or computer paper (to keep the roaches from burrowing under) as his substrate since he's still a juvenile. His lights (heat & UVB) are on an automatic timer. I began with 12 hours of light a day, but I thought since he was lethargic he might need more basking time, so I bumped it up to 14 hours of light a day. I thought I was doing everything right, but obviously something's wrong...

He's not twitching and there are no bumps at his joints, but signs seem to point to MBD! Is there anything I'm missing/doing wrong? Any thoughts? Sorry for the novel of a post...

An infinite amount of thanks,
Chelsea
 

MissT

BD.org Addict
Hey there!

Sorry to hear that your little guy is under the weather.
Just couple things I noticed straight off- the dragon dust isnt really a great supplement - you need a calcium, phosphorous free with d3 (rep-cal) and a vitamin suppliment (repcal herptivite). Also, the selection of veggies you mentioned arent really the best to give - kale and carrots bind calcium whilst lettuce is primarily just water - collard, mustard and turnip greens are much better staples - check out http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/ for a great list of staple veggies!

Quick question, is he having regular bowel movements?

T
 

hawk102

Member
Original Poster
Herptivite is what I was going to try next if it was a suggestion as I've heard lots of good things about it. I'll pick up some of it and some rep-cal tonight.

I cannot find mustard, turnip or collard greens anywhere! I'll keep searching, but I've had no luck so far. I feed very little lettuce (because of the low nutritional value and high water content--never iceburg), but he turns up his nose at a lot of what I present him.

Yes, he is having regular bowel movements, just like normal...

Perhaps it's simply the supplements that need fixing... I'll get on that and cross my fingers!!
 

hawk102

Member
Original Poster
Thank you very much for the input, by the way! It is very much appreciated!

Thanks,
Chelsea
 

MissT

BD.org Addict
No problem!

Yes I would definitely get some new supplements to start with make sure its the repcal WITH D3 and phosphorous free. Hopefully someone much more knowledgeable will come along soon to give you some more suggestions. O and I should have mentioned - his repti-sun 10 should be 6-8 inches from him - maybe put it at a slight angle so its never so far as 10inches away.

In terms of the veggies - often things in the supermarket which have greens in the name are what you are looking for - over here, I buy 'fresh greens' which are the UK equivelent of collard greens! I have to admit - I spice my salads up a little with raddichio - the colour seems to attract them to their salad and they usually get a big mouthful of greens along with it which I figure counteracts the low nutritional value!

Hope he starts feeling better soon!

T
 

protiemama

Gray-bearded Member
Actually, if you hadn't said he was 6" long I would have said he may be trying to brumate. At only 6" he really should be too young though. :dontknow:
To tempt him to eat, try phoenix worms, they are high in calcium. If you can find cilantro, try some in his salad, my Bogie LOVES his. You can try giving him babyfood with a dropper. They will usually lick the dropper. Try squash, greenbeans or chicken. They may jump start his appitite. Good luck.

Sandy H
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hi and welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear that your baby is worrying you. I know you said that you're using a Repti-Sun 10.0 but could you tell us if the bulb looks like this 1st picture http://www.bedding.com/shop/standard/uva-uvb-bulbs/60105/reptisun-10.0-uvb-desert-bulb-26-watts.jpg Also, what type of thermometer are you using to check the temps? If any type of stick-on, those can be as much as 20 degrees off.

What wattage basking bulb are you using in the 20 long & is it a colored or white bulb?

Changing the vitamins would be a good idea. How often do you bathe him? When you do, is the vent area (where he poos) right down in the water for 15 min or so?
 

hawk102

Member
Original Poster
The UVB bulb is the coiled one. I have a digital thermometer with a probe, so it should be accurate. My basking bulb is a 75 watt white bulb.

This was the first time I've bathed him. Previously he enjoyed running/crawling through and soaking in his water dish, so I didn't think bathing at the time was necessary (unless he was having problems shedding, which he wasn't). He was in his bath for probably only 10 minutes or so, maybe a little longer.
 

MissT

BD.org Addict
hawk102":24f0e said:
The UVB bulb is the coiled one.

Ok, I should have asked this but it would be best if you changed this light as coils and compacts are known to cause issues. In fact your better off with noo uv for a couple days than continuing to use that. You will need to get a reptisun 10 long flourescent tube or you could go for the repti-sun 5 or the reptiglo 8 if they are more readily available (these are the only 3 that are recommended!) - do not go for the repti-glo 10 tube as it has also been known to cause issues (which I have experienced). Heres a link to some of the issues with the coiled bulbs - http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm Eye trouble and lethargy are the two main issues caused by these bulbs so, as well as getting the vitamins, I would get the uv source sorted asap.

Hope this helps and he starts feeling better soon!

T
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello Chelsea,

If you are in the US, the Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb, or the Reptisun 5 flourescent tube bulb are the best. There is the Reptiglo 8 flourescent tube bulb but they have phased so many of them out, many have reported ordering them but getting the Reptiglo 10 in a Reptiglo 8 box! So, stick with the Reptisun lights. Of course, do not get any of the coils or compacts.
If you are in the UK, you can readily find the Arcadia D3 12% flourescent tube bulb which is a great light, as well.
What type of basking light are you using, a bright white basking light you mentioned so is it a household light then?
The digital probe should be fine for measuring the temperatures, no problem.
You can look for endive or escarole for greens also if you can't find the mustards or collards available.
Here is a feeding chart to help you with more feeding choices:
http://www.beautifuldragons.com Click on the nutritional link. :D

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
 

hawk102

Member
Original Poster
My basking light is a 75 watt reptile basking bulb, not just an ordinary household light. It's in a Fluker's ceramic fixture.

He's still hanging in there, but something really is wrong with his back leg(s). He cannot jump anymore, nor can he support his weight by standing on his back legs. His arms seem to be fine. He'll let me move his arms around, extend and flex them, along with his right back leg, but if I try to move his rear left leg, he always tries to get away... Makes me think it could've been injured. He used to LOVE to leap off of things, and if his leg got caught, he may have dislocated it without my knowledge. In all honesty, that leg looks a little bit different from his right back leg at the joints...

Could a dislocated and then malformed leg cause him to stop growing? I'm not sure if it would be the same with reptiles, but I know human growth can be jacked up from dislocations or breaks that affect growth plates. Does anyone know if that's possible with beardies? That would explain the lethargy, inability to move correctly, lack of appetite (due to pain), and possibly the halt in growth...

I'm just trying a mixture of everything to get him better!

Thanks for the advice,
Chelsea
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
It is possible that he did something to his back leg and the only way to find out is to have a vet check him & get an xray.

If he does have the beginning of MBD that could cause some of the symptoms you're mentioning, the lethargy, lack of appetite, pain, loss of appetite, not able to support his weight with his back legs. Have you noticed any muscle twitching in the back legs or even slight head movements/jerking? Did you turn off the coil bulb as suggested and were you able to order a better bulb? The coil is useless as far as ultraviolet rays goes & it is also dangerous, some beardies have died from it and others have suffered from its use.

That's good that you're using a white basking bulb & a digital with probe to get accurate readings. Is there any chance he could be impacted?
 

hawk102

Member
Original Poster
There has been no twitching of anything at all... I turned off the coil and am in the process of getting a new UVB strip light. I'll just take him outside for a while each day to supplement the lack of UVB until it gets here. I don't think it's possible that he could be impacted--I do not have him on sand or any substrate he could accidentally ingest, I feed appropriately-sized roaches, and he's still having regular bowel movements.

He seemed more alert and aware today, which makes me hopeful. I'll see how the new lights and supplements work for him, and if he's still not doing well, to the vet we'll go!

Does anyone happen to know how fast MBD can progress? I've only had him for just under two months... that seems really fast...

Thanks to everybody for your help!! You've been awesome!

--Chelsea
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello Chelsea,

Usually it takes MBD awhile to progress, but how old is he? Babies can start to show hypocalcemia simply due to the fact they are growing so quickly & they use up the available calcium stores so fast that it puts them in the negative pretty fast if they cannot absorb calcium. He couldn't absorb calcium very well due to the poor UVB light. Normally it takes several months, but it depends on the dragon.
If he is already progressing then he was not too far into it, so that is good. It will still take some time for him to fully recover though.
Great he is doing so much better now & has not had any seizures.
Good you are getting a flourescent tube bulb & have turned off the coil light now. :D

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie
 

hawk102

Member
Original Poster
I don't know how old he is--I got him from a pet store--but I've had him for only two months now.

He stopped eating for a couple of days, but he eagerly snatched up a baby roach last night, so I was thrilled!

Thanks,
Chelsea
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

I miss you so much, Amaris 💔
What is a quick way to warm up a cold beardie? His heating element went out overnight and now he's very cold.
Pearl Girl wrote on moorelori1966's profile.
i feel so sad reading your about me 😢
Clapton is acclimating okay I think. He's quick as lightning so I'm not sure how much I should bring him out of his house yet. He's not at all interested in his salad though. I wonder if I should change what I'm giving him. Least he's eating his crickets.

Things to do:
Buy calcium powder
Material to raise surface for basking spot
Scenery decals for back of tank

Forum statistics

Threads
155,903
Messages
1,255,709
Members
75,967
Latest member
Newbeardiemom09
Top Bottom