Dragon - possibly dying - Please help - vet yesterday but..

Hello,
Dragon quit eating around two weeks ago.
He would do this sometimes as he was so fat he could hardly move.

Last Saturday I had oral surgery, and my daughter came to me around Wendsday (while I was still recovering) and said that the dragon did not look so good.
and she said I needed to look at him as soon as possible.

I had been having some complications from the dental stuff, when I did get to take a look at him on the following Friday - he was doing very poorly.
I did not worry about the not eating the first week, and had I not had unexpected surgery on the following Saturday - I probably would have caught the situation earlier - but now it was two weeks without food.
I was not sure what to do.
I have been unable (and still was on Saturday) to find a vet that will even see a reptile.
I was desperate - so I showed up at the local barnfieild vet office - was waiting when they opened, only to be told that they no longer had a vet at that clinic, and even if they did - they would not treat a lizard.
The tech called all three of our local vet emergency rooms - same problem - we do not see exotics.
I finally almost gave up - was at the local post office (have a store and had to mail a package quickly before the post closed) and just blurted out did anyone know a vet that was open on Saturday and would see a lizard?
Everyone said there was - one - vet close by that was open on Sat. until 12:00 but they did not know if he would see the dragon.
I just went there - he first said no - and tried to refer me to the ONLY vet that he knew of in the entire DFW metroplex (with the exception of one other in Fort Worth)
The vet office called the other vet for me, but they said they could not see me only one vet on staff and they were overbooked.

I finally begged the first vet into seeing him - if only to put him to sleep. I did not want to see him suffer.

He consulted with the other vet, and they as a proactive care - treated him for a upper respritory.
He also gave him some subQ fulids with calcium.
I had given him up for dead - not moving - just lying there.

We made it through Saturday night, the fluids seemed to make him feel better for a short time - and now it is Sunday am - and after he seemed to do a bit better yesterday, he is back to his state of just lying there - breathing but otherwise looking dead.

Here is the tank setup:
My tank is 36" long 15" tall 15" wide
There is a ceramic heater on the top next to a basking lamp (took everything apart to clean it just now) but I think it is around 6" or so above the basking rock.
There is a heat pad that sticks to the bottom of the tank, and it is directly in the middle.
The lamps I use are
150 w sun glo exo terra - this one is on a switch, and I turn it on when he seems cool - but it warms him rapidly and he seeks shelter.

repti glo 10. uvb - this one stays on all day. 20W Exo - Terra desert lamp.

I have one of the blacklight type reptile lamps, but rarely use it. It is just there in case there is a very cold night.


I use the reptile sand as a substrate.

The temps are just at 110 on the hot side (atop the basking rock) and around 70 - 80 on the shade side where his water is. The hot side is just at 100 degrees with a middle area that is just at 90 or so. I tried to create four different temp areas with shelter in each area except the cool side. The terra cotta pot has the rock on top but has the open area with shade in the middle
If he gets in the water and soaks, the temp drops to the 70 area where he splashes the water onto the sand. Otherwise it is just at 80.

I have a terra cotta plant pot that I broke in half and smoothed the edges, on top of this is a rock and there are limbs that are made for him to climb up to the basking rock. He uses this almost daily, and loves to sleep there at night, just below the ceramic lamp. (my house stays pretty cool - just at 68 degrees)

To picture this - take a pot, cut it in half - prop it against the glass at a angle (cut the bottom at the right angle so that there is a opening so that the lizard can go completely around and yet under it as well for shade.
Put the rock on top of the pot - this is the basking spot. On top of half of the heating pad from the bottom, I put another rock so that when he is under the pot- he is still not sitting directly on the mat - he is on a warm but not hot rock. He has loved this set up for all of his years - it gives him lots of room, but so many different temps.

I have been feeding him mostly organic dandelion from whole foods - he loves this food.
He eats a little bit of mealworms - but not as much as he did when he was little.
I mist him pretty often - especially if he looks dry - like he wants to shed.
But just about daily or every couple of days at the longest.

As for dusting - I have not been doing this - but picked some calcium spray and also some vitamin spray today, and sprayed his superworms with it.

The lights come on just about 10:00 am and then go off around 10:00 pm - 9:00 if for some reason I am going to bed early. (that is not very often)

I currently have him sitting on my lap on a heating pad (with a towel folded in half under him)
I force fed him just around 6 superworms that I had cut into pieces.
He is having a hard time swallowing - and does not like it at all when I try to make him drink.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
I think I finally found a vet that I can take him to tomorrow if I can get him through today and tonight.
He looks terribly dehydrated.

Is force feeding him the right thing to do?
And if so - which is more imortant - the greens or the superworms?
I sprayed them down with a calcium suppliment and the vitamin spray.

How much is ok to force feed - can I over do this while he is sick?
Please help - I am desperate.
I do not want to see anything suffer.
He does not even open his eyes today - Just lies there.

Thanks,
Rhonda (RT)

I wish I had some advice for you. I'm glad you got the vet to see him at least. I went through this with a baby but sadly my ending was not happy.

wow...
I sure was hoping for something... anything..
I am still holding the little guy - he opens his eyes and takes a few steps sometimes, but then just collapses again..
Sad..
This is the one thing I did not want - to see him suffering.

Has anyone seen these guys do this before - just sleep with no energy - and still make if for a few days?
I can feel the bones in his back, and the guy is so dehydrated.
I gave him a warm bath today, guess I will do this a few more times.

Going to take him out in the sun for a bit later on,
Seriously... no ideas at all???

Thanks,
RT

Keeping him hydrated is good. Let him soak in warm water 15-20 minutes holding his head above the water. Keep a very close eye on him.
Babyfood chicken has been mentioned to be a good food for a sick beardie. Feed in a needleless syringe. Natural sunlight is great for them 20 -30 minutes or longer, but not necessarily dorect sunlight, uvb will reach them in the shade also. Don't let him get too hot.
I'd stop the mealworms.
How's his poo looking?
Keep in touch.

I am always afraid that I will cook the poor guy when I make a warm bath, what is the correct temprature?
Is it ok if it feels warm to me, but not body temp?
Thanks,
Rhonda

How old is he? When was the last time he had a bowel movement? Could he be impacted? Does he have "strange" lumps in his abdomen?
What was it that made the vet diagnose him with upper respiratory infection? Had your beardie been having difficulty in breathing?

For starters, remove the ReptiGlo 10.0 and replace it with either a ReptiSun 10.0 or ReptiGlo 8.0. The latest studies of the ReptiGlo 10.0 had not been good (http://www.uvguide.co.uk/).
Second, depending on where you feed him, the reptile sand could be accidentally ingested, therefore causing impaction.

As for a food source, you should offer a variety of greens, not just dandelion (http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html).

Sorry you're having such a difficult time in finding a herp vet. Hope this link will help in your search: http://www.herpvetconnection.com/.

Hope he'll bounce back for you soon.

The vet does not see lizards, so he called the only vet in the area that does.
The vet said to treat the little guy for a respritory - just in case.
No reason there - no coughing, and no runny nose.
Just did it as a precation.

He is not impacted. He had a bm a few days back, just after the last time he ate.
I guess I should carify, he was already sick but did eat a small amount of greens one time, but did not eat very much.
He had a bm shortly after that and was regular but small.

I can see that he is very dehydrated.
I am doing as told and soaking him now.
I have him in a bath of 100 degrees.
it is cooling off now as we speak, should I keep rewarming it?

Also - the vet gave the subQ fluids with added calcium.

will be right back, dog wants in, lizard is soaking - daughter is helping with this.

No trouble with breathing, and no lumps.

I was force feeding him and did notice that he seemed to have a good bit of trouble swallowing.
His tongue is white on the tip, and looks what I would call anemic - if there is such a thing in lizards.

I had just replaced the light around 3 weeks ago - I used to use the zoo med ones, but they burned out so often - if they were switched off suddenly during a storm and such that I finally changed.

Carni is 5 years old and we adopted him because he was the runt of the litter, and it was a filthy little pet store where people were protesting outside all the time.
We knew we might loose him while he was a baby and sick, but it is pretty unexpected 5 years down the road - I think we expected him to live like 10 years.

The light is not a good one but I think that is the least of your worries. If you can exchange it for a reptiSUN 10 or even a 5 if they have it, that would be Great. The soaks should be baby bath warm. I don't know the exact temp. but I just would try to keep it warm. Pooing is good, what does it look like?

Oh and the end of the tongue is supposed to be white.

Yeah, on the tongue -that is what I thought, but just making sure that I am not missing anything
He still chomps down on me pretty good when I try to force feed him, he is a strong little guy.

WOW ... it sure does sound like the light thing.
He does not open his eyes.
And he was doing fine until I changed the light.
I do follow the distance rules, but if these lights are a problem - the timing would make absolute sense.

I am very afraid for the little guy.

Thank you everyone - I had no idea.
Please know - any infomation or suggestions is greatly appreciated.
I try to feed him kale, but he wont touch it - same with spinich.

He is very very very picky and spoiled.
He will go hungry before he will touch any of these.
I do sometimes add things like fruit to his mix, but he usually eats around these too.
He is a very bad boy when he is feeling good.

Rhonda

Hi Rhonda,

The bath water should be luke warm, just like you'd give a baby a bath in, you can keep rewarming the water. Just make sure that you stay w/ him at all times.I would do this a couple times a day for at least 20 minutes. I think you could give him at least 3-5cc of baby food a couple times a day as long as he is digesting it, pooping. We don't want that to sit on his stomach and rot. Stage 2 chicken and get a vegetable to mix with it. You could mix a little bit of pedialyte w/ it to think it out. Feed him this w/ a needle less syringe. First see if he'll lick it off the tip of his nose, if not, gently slide the tip of the syringe in between his lips, hopefully he'll open a little bit and then inject the food onto his tounge, not down his throat. I had a sick one for a long time and did this everyday.

I would do away w/ the ReptiGLO 10.....you can get a ReptiSUN 10 for $20.00 at http://www.petmountain.com
So up untill now he has never had calcium or vitamins? He needs calcium 5x a week, 1 feeding per day and a multivitamin 2x a week, 1 feeding per day. It may be a possibility that he has developed Metalbolic Bone Disease aka MBD.

I really hope your little guy pulls through for you and your daughter.

I also wanted to mention that you have found the BEST sight on the web when it comes to beardies and this community of people is wonderful and they will do their BEST to help you get your baby well. Just please follow their advise.

Leann

Hello Leann,
I am going to run out to the store in just a few minutes and get the suggested foods.
I am so thrilled to have found this site.

I rescue strange things, and I always take on the sickly ones.
I have three rescue dogs currently, and all were on their death beds when I took them on.
My German Sheperd is just around 12 years old, and you would think she is maybe 3 years old.
Newest project is the Golden Retriever - long story - but around $1000. and two years later she is very heathy and a loving family pet.

I am surprised at how quickly this little guy went down.
He was doing fine - then all at once - he was not moving and so bad off - I did not think he would ever have survived last night.

Ok - running up to the store.
Not sure if the pharmacy will sell me a syringe, but I am hopeful.


Thanks,
Rhonda

Hi Rhonda, sorry you and your beardie are going through all this. Even though he had a small poop a few days ago, he could still be impacted from ingesting sand, the mealworms or even the supers, especially since he's not eating his greens. Did you purchase the sand at the petstore, if so, it is probably either calci-sand or vita-sand which encourages them to lick it and can cause major impactions. The next time you give him a bath, massage gently on his right side from armpit to vent (where he poos) and if you feel any hardened area, massage gently in a circular motion trying to move it closer to the vent. Test the water temp by the inside of your wrist, should feel warm but not hot.

I would hold off on forcefully feeding anymore supers or mealworms for now. I suggest you pick up some babyfood applesauce, squash, chicken babyfood and some Pedialyte. Also, something called Repti-Aid. http://reviews.petco.com/3554/10804/reviews.htm I wouldn't feed any chicken babyfood at this time because it may tax his system causing kidney or liver failure. But as he recoops you can mix a little of the chicken with the squash days down the road.
Mix up some Repti-Aid, applesauce and squash babyfood thinned with a small amt of Pedialyte. Rather than forcefeeding, use a plastic medicine dropper and put drops on his nose for him to hopefully lick off. If he won't take it, then you will have to use a needleless syringe and put a small amt in the side of his mouth (not directly in the front or he may choke/aspirate). Hopefully once he gets a taste, he will willingly lick some off his nose. I would also keep up with the frequent bathing and massaging of the right side. You could also dilute a little babyfood applesauce, heat it up so quite warm but not hot and put drops of that on his nose & that will help with a possible impaction.

I suspect he is overheating in his tank as a 150 watt basking bulb AND a ceramic heat emitter is an awful lot for a 36" long tank. Are you using a stick-on type thermometer like either a strip or round gauge type? Those can be as much as 20 degrees off. The only 2 ways to get an accurate reading are with either a temperature gun or a digital thermometer with a long wire & probe on the end. They can be found at Walmart for as cheap as $8.00. High temps cause rapid dehydration and overheating, so it's extremely important to know what the temps actually are. I suggest you turn off the 150 watt basking bulb and replace with a 100 watt household lighbulb instead. You also shouldn't need to use the CHE or the heat pad (they are dangerous, can burn their bellies as they sense heat from overhead.)

The Repti-Glo bulb you're using, is it a compact, coil or strip fluorescent bulb? That's very important that we find out.

So, the vet didn't give any antibiotics at all then not even in the injection, hopefully not, just IV fluids with calcium?

Please give us an update so we can try to help further.

Edit: sorry Leann, guess we posted about the same time, I was typing as you were submitting. :silent:

Yesterday was the first time I bought the superworms.
usally I just offer some mealworms every now and then since I thought they eat mainly veggies when they are grown.
I figured possibly he was missing the protien in these since he had gotten sick.

The vet gave him the shot of antibiotics for the upper respritory, then two very small shots of fluid with calcium.
That is it.

I will look for a new thermometor while I am at walmart in a few minutes.

Thanks,
Rhonda