Bearded Dragon with MBD

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RedRiver7

Member
I have 2 Bearded Dragons a Female named Venus and a Male named Maverick
Maverick is perfectly happy and healthy and has been since he was a baby

Venus however has been having some issues.
She was purchased as an adult in 2016 from a reptile show and at the time she seemed perfectly healthy. The breeder told me she was 2 years old (though I am not sure if this is true or not).
After bringing her home I noticed she really wasn't a big eater and it took a lot of work to get her to eat greens and other veg.
For 3 years she was fine and had no health or behavioral issues to my knowledge.
The Cage set up was and still is:
L48in x H18in x W16in
Two hides
A large shallow food dish
Smaller no escape feeder dishes
And a 100watt Flunkers basking bulb + 24in T8 Reptisun tube light
The substrate is coconut mat (made of the fibers from the husk)
The thermostat in the cage has her basking area at 101 Degrees farenheit
Last night it got down to 72 Degrees in her tank

This summer I worked at a summer camp and their care was left to my Parents and younger sister
After returning home on Friday 8/14/2020, my parents informed me that Venus hadn't been eating/drinking and seemed to be just staying in her hide.
At first I thought that she was brumating but when I went to take a closer look it definitely wasn't that.

I had left home on June the 11th and apparently she hadn't been eating much since late June or early July. She has DEFINITELY lost weight and when I set her up to bask I noticed a spasming in the muscles in her hind legs. I watched her bask for a while and noticed these spasms happened occasionally and that her head would also sometimes shake (as if she had the chills).
I began research right away and pretty much immediately all signs pointed towards MBD
If she had really been in her hide that entire time she would not have been under the UVB light and definitely wasn't eating so she wasn't getting the calcium vitamins or general nourishment she needed to stay healthy.

I also found out that the tube light being above a screen was cutting down her UVB intake dramatically which probably wasn't helping her the entire time I have owned her.
Starting yesterday I have been giving her a 15 minute warm bath every day
Taking her out in the back yard and letting her sit in the sun (no more than 30 minutes)
and trying to get her to eat/ poop (since she hadn't "gone in a while" according to my sister)
Her jaw is still strong and she can still move around but her walking is clumsy and she generally seems lethargic.
I was able to get her to take a couple of super worms that had been dusted in this calcium:
https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...ld=1&keywords=repti+cal&qid=1597617326&sr=8-4
I was also able to assist feed her some collard greens and some carrot
(I opened her mouth a little a put the carrot/greens in and she chewed it and ate it on her own)

Since I am really concerned about her lack of willingness to eat and general lethargy I purchased these and I will begin feeding her the herbivore mix as soon as they arrive (hopefully before tonight) And probably begin adding some of the carnivore mix once she seems to improve
https://www.amazon.com/Oxbow-Critic...&qid=1597617721&sprefix=oxbow+,aps,231&sr=8-2
https://www.amazon.com/Oxbow-Carniv...&qid=1597617796&sprefix=oxbow+,aps,231&sr=8-6

Since her UVB set up was all wrong I purchased a MVB for the time being so that I can use a clamp lamp and take the screen off (until I can get a tube fixture to mount in her cage)
This is the bulb I purchased
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y9FJWPR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also found this site and puchased some Calcium Glubionate
https://store.beautifuldragons.com/Calcium_Glubionate/p6073015_19482678.aspx

Her current weight is : 385 grams
I am unsure what her weight was previously but it was probably at or above 400 grams (estimate)

I unfortunately do not have an exotics vet that I trust in my area after several people reported them as using unsanitary practices (using the same mat/Popsicle stick for two animals etc) and I do not want to risk making her anymore sick

Here are some pictures of her today
https://imgur.com/gallery/uY1D5Kf
https://imgur.com/gallery/auYfuZB
She blinked for the second one, and while typing this the Ox Bow arrived. The MVB is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I will try to get a film of the shaking. She also had a very large poo after I put her back in the cage from taking these photos.

Her feeding schedule was:
Greens: M W F Sat
Supers: T T Sun
Dusted with the linked Calcium: 4 Days
Dusted with Multi Vitamin: 3 Days
Do you think I am overreacting or am I not doing enough? Is there anymore I can do or advise anyone has for getting her to eat solids again on her own?
Also if anyone knows someone who will ship Calcium Glubionate fast I would really appreciate a link.
The stuff I ordered won't ship until Tuesday and I do not want her condition to deteriorate any further.
In early 2019 she had had an incident of shaking that was somewhat similar but after I changed out my UVB bulb she seemed okay. If I had to guess the incorrect UVB set up I have been using has left her short for a while and this just exacerbated the issue. :(
Thank you all in advance ~ Red
 

KarrieRee

BD.org Sicko
Beardie name(s)
Hiccup he is 6 and Blaze is 4
I cannot help you w / the calcium stuff you are wanting to purchase nor that UVB you are wanting to get ---- I have never heard of that brand so I am going to get someone else on here w/ more experienced w/ this stuff -- I would recommend you get a T 5 bulb instead of the T 8 -- if she is developing MBD you can improve the health before it gets any worse -- my guess she has quit eating because of the UVB ---
One of the people I am going to get to help you is our vet tech and she is on late at night
Karrie
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi Red, Venus is a beautiful leatherback, nice color and her weight looks good . :) You are doing all the right things now, calcium and sunlight should correct the problem so keep that up. You can probably get the calcium glubionate here :
www.bugdelite.com

Just be careful with the multi vitamin dusting, twice a week at most and use very sparingly.
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
AHBD":23r3k85b said:
Hi Red, Venus is a beautiful leatherback, nice color and her weight looks good . :) You are doing all the right things now, calcium and sunlight should correct the problem so keep that up. You can probably get the calcium glubionate here :
http://www.bugdelite.com

Just be careful with the multi vitamin dusting, twice a week at most and use very sparingly.

Thank you so much,
Her genetics are Leather Back, Trans, and she is supposedly het hypo.
I went ahead and ordered some calcium glubionate from the site you linked.
I got her to take maybe 2 teaspoons worth of the Herbivore mix (not including water) though she fought me all the way with it. I gave her a teaspoon of the Carnivore mix just to let her try it and she seemed to like that much more.

After I fed her she pooped again though it was quite small, it seemed very normal in color/smell/consistency.
After being fed though she was very lethargic and sat basking with her eyes closed and really only moved to poo. I went ahead and put her under her hide so that she could fully rest and turned her basking lamp down a bit before it shut off completely.
Her beard was not dark and all and her colors were bright, but she wasn't moving around as much today and how uncoordinated her movement is has me really concerned.
I will cut down the multi vitamins to twice a week from now on though.
As for her weight, I know you said it looks good but I can really see her ribs when she spreads them out (especially from her underbelly) and I can see the bones at the base of her tail which also has me very concerned.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

She is definitely very pretty! Her body condition looks pretty good though, overall. Her tail thickness
should get more sturdy as she gets older.
You are putting in a T5 tube, into her tank? The Reptisun 10 T8 is fine though, as long as it is within
a 6-8 inch distance from her.
Definitely taking her outdoors daily will help get her D3 levels up to par pretty quickly.
I'm glad you have her back with you now, she should start to improve with proper lighting & better
supplementation.
The bug-de-lite website is mine, so PM me your name so I can flag your order & ship it priority for you.
I will ship out monday for you.

Tracie
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
Drache613":17uq1txe said:
Hello,

She is definitely very pretty! Her body condition looks pretty good though, overall. Her tail thickness
should get more sturdy as she gets older.
You are putting in a T5 tube, into her tank? The Reptisun 10 T8 is fine though, as long as it is within
a 6-8 inch distance from her.
Definitely taking her outdoors daily will help get her D3 levels up to par pretty quickly.
I'm glad you have her back with you now, she should start to improve with proper lighting & better
supplementation.
The bug-de-lite website is mine, so PM me your name so I can flag your order & ship it priority for you.
I will ship out monday for you.

Tracie

Thank you so much and you should have received a DM from me.
My concern with her tail was that she is (if the breeder was honest)
Already at minimum a 2 year old dragon when I purchased her, which would make her 6 this year.
I have my suspicions that she might have been older than he led on though as she didnt grow after I got her period.
I understand all dragons are different but when I compare her overall propotions to Maverick (who I raised from 3 months) I see some serious differences.
They are not housed in the same cage and the only difference between their set ups is that I built a cave and ledge system for Maverick out of excavator which puts him much closer to his basking and UVB but not so close that it harms him.
As for the lighting.
My old T8 set up was not inside the tank and was 12 inches away from her basking spot on the "cool" side. I never knew how much a screen would block UVB. My plan is to get a tube inside the tank so that I know she has proper lighting. If you have any recommendations for fixtures or lights I should use please let me know. As I was having trouble finding something I could mount in the tank.
My tanks are both pretty large at 48 inches long so I would end up putting the tube on the hot side much closer to the basking spot than it was previously.
As a temporary solution I have the MVB arriving tomorrow which I have a clamp lamp set up for on the basking side of the tank with the screen now off.
Thanks so much again ~ Red
 

KarrieRee

BD.org Sicko
Beardie name(s)
Hiccup he is 6 and Blaze is 4
I recommend getting this fixture https://www.pangeareptile.com/store/zoo-med-reptisun-t5-ho-terrarium-hood.html this place has it so if you wanted you could order the same fixture from here as well - pangea sends out right away and ships Fed Ex --- the fixture comes w/ a 5.0 bulb its equivalent to the T 8 your using --- but its up to you where you want to order from --- both of those bulbs are good but in her case I would go w/ the Arcadia
Karrie
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
KarrieRee":25v4ruaf said:
I recommend getting this fixture https://www.pangeareptile.com/store/zoo-med-reptisun-t5-ho-terrarium-hood.html this place has it so if you wanted you could order the same fixture from here as well - pangea sends out right away and ships Fed Ex --- the fixture comes w/ a 5.0 bulb its equivalent to the T 8 your using --- but its up to you where you want to order from --- both of those bulbs are good but in her case I would go w/ the Arcadia
Karrie
Thank you so much for the recommendation. Can I have this hood above the screen? Or will I need to keep my screens off?
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
Just as a small update
This morning I found her outside of her hide with some of the food I had given her on her lips.
When I pulled back her hide I found that she had thrown up most if not all of her meal.
I gave her some time to bask then gave her a bath to try an re-hydrate her.
I grabbed some tiles and moved her basking spot closer to the heat lamp itself in case temperature was a factor.
I took her out again today and she jumped out of my lap onto the ground.
But when she went to try and run her walking was VERY dis coordinated and she nearly tripped over herself and fell over twice.
After that I brought her back in and let her rest a little before giving her a small amount of the Critical care but much more watered down this time.
I was happy to see her try to move around, but the way she is moving seems completely unhealthy and a couple of times I saw her let her entire left front foot fold backwards :(
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Sorry she had a rough day today!
Can you check the critical care label to see what is in it? I am concerned about the ingredients in a lot
of the commercialized feeds now.
Has her beard been black at all? Bless her. It sounds like she wants to move around but is definitely
having a hard time doing so. Be sure that her basking spot inside of her tank isn't too high to where she
has to climb a lot to bask. That is to help decrease the incidences of her falling & getting hurt.
Your calcium was sent out monday so hopefully you will get that quickly!

Tracie
 

KarrieRee

BD.org Sicko
Beardie name(s)
Hiccup he is 6 and Blaze is 4
If the screen is off 12-15 inches from basking decor w/ decor directly underneath - screen needs to be wide holed to place on top w/ distance of 8-10 inches w/ a T 5 ---
If the screen is on and is a fine mesh like a screen door it would need to be inside the tank approx 12-15 inches from basking decor w/ it directly underneath
Karrie
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
These are the ingredients in the Critical Care Hebivore
Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Soybean Meal, Wheat Germ, Xanthan Gum, Calcium Chloride, Cane Molasses, Salt, Potassium Chloride, L-Ascorbyl-2-Monophosphate (Vitamin C), Soybean Oil, Magnesium Sulfate, Papaya, Pineapple, Limestone, Natural Flavor, Oat Groats, Wheat Middlings, Yeast Culture (dehydrated), Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate,Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Selenium Yeast, Vitamin A Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamin Mononitrate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Iodate.

These are the ingredients from the Carnivore
Dried Whole Egg, Poultry Meal, Fish Oil, Tricalcium Phosphate, Silicone Dioxide, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Biotin, Taurine, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Sodium Benzoate, L-carnitine, L-Ascorbyl-2- Monophosphate (Vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Pyroxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement

Yesterday I fed her 2.5 grams of it (not with water) 2 grams Herb .5 Carnivore
She took it well and did not throw up at all, she has also been pooping .
As for the tracking number I don't seem to have that yet so if you wouldn't mind sending it I would greatly appreciate it.
I found another vet that takes exotic reptiles and the soonest appointment I could get was Friday. The reviews are somewhat mixed but the other vet I contacted recommended them so hopefully all goes well.
She seems to be much more active now that the MVB is up and going but her movement is still quite off and she is still turning down solid food.
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
To answer your question about her beard though, it is only dark when I am syringe feeding her and even then it's not by much. It was not dark at all when I found her in the morning.

Generally her stress seems pretty low, she just seems to be disinterested in food and be having some serious trouble moving like she wants to.

I will do my best to adjust her basking area so that it is easier for her to climb up onto it and off of it
She was moving around a lot more today and moved herself to the cool side of her cage in the late afternoon and seemed to want to sleep there.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is your girl doing today?
The herbivore care has soybean products in it so I would give sparingly. Most of the soybeans in the US
production are genetically modified which can cause health & digestive issues.
The carnivore care has better ingredients but should be given in small amounts just so she doesn't get too
much synthetic vitamin A & D.
I am glad that she hasn't thrown up again though, that is great!
Let us know how she is doing.

Did you receive the tracking number?

Tracie
 

RedRiver7

Member
Original Poster
I'll be sure to watch out for the Soy and hopefully she won't have to eat out of a syringe for much longer.
I did receive my tracking number so thank you so much for that.
She's been much more active and moving around her cage more, today was over cast though so I wasn't able to take her outside and get her any sun.

She still has 0 interest in solid food (even insects) so that's worrying but I know at least that she is getting hydration and some nutrients from her food mixture. I haven't had her regurgitate anymore food however so that's a big plus. She also was moving around today when I took her out to syringe feed her rather than just sitting there (which she had been doing previously). She is still pooping daily so she is digesting things properly at very least. I will weight her again tomorrow when she wakes up to see how she is doing in that regard.
 
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