Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:18 am

I have been laying her at a slight downward angle to sleep at night.. hoping if she did aspirate bath water it might drain out. The reason I was giving the daily baths was to help her pass whatever's going on I'm her belly.. (eggs, follicles, impaction) causing the bloating and tenderness on the one side of her belly. The actual egg laying hasn't happened since the day we went to the vet.. but I just assumed to continue giving them because the symptoms didn't change.. I'm still so worried she's got something stuck somewhere causing the partial paralysis in her back leg.. any ideas of things I can do in place of the baths to help as far as that goes?
When I force feed her, I pull her lip open a tad near the back of her jaw.. enough to squirt a drop right inside her lip.. this triggers her to lick her lips and I use that as my chance.. just dropping on tounge when she licks her lips.. then after about 20 secs she goes back to telling me to shove off and I start from the beginning.. hope she's not aspirating any of the food.. that was my main fear when I found out I had to force feed!! Idk how much more carefully I could give it to her though..
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Drache613 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:49 am

Hello,

Poor Evee! She is having a rough time right now! I know syringe or assisted feeding is not
fun for either one of you. There is always a risk involved when feeding them like that, but it
does sound like you are extremely careful though.
Placing her in a decline position & keeping her warmer overnight should help quite a bit in the
case she is developing any type of respiratory issue. Is her beard still normal color too?
At least she hasn't laid anymore eggs though, at the moment. I hope she wont have anymore
problems with them.
The Bactrim or sulfa based medication should be ok for using as a broad spectrum antibiotic,
but sulfa based antibiotics are hard on their system so continue with daily fluids as best you
can so she doesn't get dehydrated.

Keep us posted on her.
Tracie
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:47 am

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Poor Evee! She is having a rough time right now! I know syringe or assisted feeding is not
fun for either one of you. There is always a risk involved when feeding them like that, but it
does sound like you are extremely careful though.
Placing her in a decline position & keeping her warmer overnight should help quite a bit in the
case she is developing any type of respiratory issue. Is her beard still normal color too?
At least she hasn't laid anymore eggs though, at the moment. I hope she wont have anymore
problems with them.
The Bactrim or sulfa based medication should be ok for using as a broad spectrum antibiotic,
but sulfa based antibiotics are hard on their system so continue with daily fluids as best you
can so she doesn't get dehydrated.

Keep us posted on her.
Tracie


This was meant to be a PM but didn't go through...

Hello! I hope you don't mind the PM..I just figured your the one responding to me mostly anyway..I'm writing about my baby Eevee..we have been having a rough time with her transition into womanhood.. and a run in with a bad vet..(in case you weren't sure who I was)
My name is Keesha BTW.. just so I can put a name with the dragon. Lol.
Anyway...

We have an actual update!!
It finally hit the one week mark of being on the antibiotics.. and the only progress we had was me thinking she developed an upper respiratory infection. So it was time for another vet visit. (The one who I talked to second of course) he had me drop her off at 7am, and kept her overnight to figure this mess out. It was weird that I had to drop her and not be there for the actual exam or a face to face conversation.. especially after the experience from last time.. I would have felt better hovering over his shoulder making sure he heard everything I had to say. Idk y he made the appointment the way he did now that I think about it.. hmm.. o well.. sry.. I'm sitting here rambling on before I even get to the actual news I have to share.. I'm just scared!! Don't even wanna think about it.
So her blood tests mostly came back looking pretty normal. Calcium levels were fine.. her kidneys were good..and thats about all he told me as far as blood tests. They gave her another x-ray..(so if nothing else dooms her.. theres always cancer from all the radiation!😵😥 Ugh.. bad joke.. as far as eggs go.. it looked like she might have about 2 more "slugs"
I was gonna ask if that was the name for the type of eggs she has been laying.. yellow and unshelled.. or does it mean follicles that r still stuck on her ovary? If it's a general non-specific term i will have to ask him where they were located.. if they were ready to come out or still follicles.

I am going to give him a call tonight and shake him down for as much info I can think to ask..and this is one favor I was gonna ask u for... If there is anything u can think of that should be asking the vet.. or anything that doesn't sound right diagnosis/treatment wise.. or general care stuff I might want to change while she's in recovery.. please share!! I can use all the help I can get.. ok down to the actual diagnosis..
Firstly.. he's pretty sure the leftover slugs or the previous ones that made it out (which were all pretty deformed) gave her some sort of yolk peritonitis..that gives us our first diagnosis.. then there's this...

Eevee is a leatherback hypo..pretty lil redhead rainbow tiger.. apparently that has a a bigger meaning to all this than just her looks.. he said dragons that are her morph r predisposed to immune deficiency disorder?!! Have you ever heard of that before? ..well eventhough her calcium looked good.. she somehow developed arthritis...at age 2?! That was another question. I was thinking her leg paralysis/weakness etc. Was gonna be mbd. The Dr said nope! Arthritis! .. isn't arthritis just a form of mbd? Like doesn't mbd just mean a group of diseases that affect bone health? How in the world would she get arthritis??! He said it's in the hip of her bad leg..but the rest of her joints look pretty angry as well.

We have one more...I saved the worst for last...to exatrerbate the issue and put the cherry on top of this nightmare..because her immune system is comprised, the infection made its way into her weak arthritic knee.. causing...

OSTEOMYELITIS SEPTICEMIA!!!!

I'm officially defeated.. and hope is almost gone. Another favor I need from u is an honest how survivable is this?? I know she's in pain.. this just confirmed I was probably underestimating how bad the pain actually was. The sad part is I don't have money left to euthanize her if it gets to, or is already at that point.. the bill wasn't exactly cheap.. anyway.. he sent her home with two antibiotics one is an injectable that's called enroflox and I'm supposed to give once a day and the other is an oral antibiotic metronidazole.. every 3 days. She had the metro once already.. but last time it was just one dose.. there's 3 this time. I am supposed to call the doctor tonight to go over everything.. so if you happen to read this today at some point anything you think I should mention or ask him to start with would be amazing. I'm going to go ahead and finished with this.. think I did a little bit of an overload on information.. hopefully I didn't overwhelm you because I am sure overwhelmed.thanks again for being there during this! U have no idea how much I appreciate you for all your help!!


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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby AHBD » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:12 am

Hi there, I know Tracie will have some good input but I am sorry to hear about Evee's diagnosis. I wanted to comment on the vet saying that leatherbacks [ I'll call the L.B's ] or hypo's are more prone to health problems. This is not true at all, those 2 morphs have been around for at least 30 years an are as hardy as any in captivity. I raised L.B dragons for over 20 years and still own 2 boys, clutchmates that are 8 years old. So her morph is not a factor. Just keep up with the calcium, try to get her natural sunlight and keep her well hydrated and as stress free as possible. Do you have any new pics of her ?
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:53 pm

AHBD wrote:Hi there, I know Tracie will have some good input but I am sorry to hear about Evee's diagnosis. I wanted to comment on the vet saying that leatherbacks [ I'll call the L.B's ] or hypo's are more prone to health problems. This is not true at all, those 2 morphs have been around for at least 30 years an are as hardy as any in captivity. I raised L.B dragons for over 20 years and still own 2 boys, clutchmates that are 8 years old. So her morph is not a factor. Just keep up with the calcium, try to get her natural sunlight and keep her well hydrated and as stress free as possible. Do you have any new pics of her ?



I still haven't figured out how to do everything on this forum.. actually tried to forward to both of u.. I have no clue what I was doing wrong. Just thought it might have been seen quicker/easier. I don't really understand where he got that idea from.. I had never heard of anything like that... I'm not an expert either.. so I really couldn't tell u anything for sure. I mean her morph just affects her scales and skin pigment right? I don't know how him saying that affects her diagnosis regardless... Bc if she had an egg go bad and turn into yolk peritonitis.. and it spread bc it didn't get treated soon enough.. wouldn't that be bad for any beardie? She didn't really need an immune system disorder to get an infection from bad eggs.. idk. She does look a lil perked up today.. had her outside all afternoon during a family get together.. she even bit a blade of grass!! That's better than anything that has happened in a month!! I got some liquid calcium.. and they gave her fluids/calcium. Injections.


And of course she would've been in recovery alot faster if the first vet knew what she was doing! I don't see how vets r allowed to say they treat exotics if they can't even figure out to take a damn blood test or check for infection or maybe give some antibiotics to a patient coming In with a thorough explanation of symptoms of something common and dangerous to a species.. if they wanna treat any certain species
Extensive time should be spent learning about them. She surely didn't make it any easier for her to survive this.. I'm just so heartbroken
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby AHBD » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:19 pm

When you consult with the vet tonight ask him how the septicemia was diagnosed. If her bloodwork was supposedly all good I would think it would have elevated something to indicate infection. But see what he says, be respectful of course. As for how + why exotic vets can practice but be unknowing about certain species, it is quite common. While some of them are sincere + helpful others may think that since they are an animal Dr. that they can see whatever they want in small animal practice but actually know very little about reptiles. Exotic vets may know more about rabbits, ferrets + birds.

And again, the thing with any morphs being weak + prone to health problems came about back when the trans. [ transluscent ] dragons were being bred, many were weak + sickly for the first 5 or more years , and the next big morph to have serious health problems were the witblits and similar morphs [ whitish/grey color with no pattern ] I still remember the long discussion on a beardie website where the originator of the witblits [ I believe he was from South Africa ] was defending his new morph and all the controversy over it.

But the leatherback + hypo's have been strong for as long as I can remember. How is Evee doing today ? Is she eating + drinking anything, at least the supplemental food ?
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:29 pm

AHBD wrote:When you consult with the vet tonight ask him how the septicemia was diagnosed. If her bloodwork was supposedly all good I would think it would have elevated something to indicate infection. But see what he says, be respectful of course. As for how + why exotic vets can practice but be unknowing about certain species, it is quite common. While some of them are sincere + helpful others may think that since they are an animal Dr. that they can see whatever they want in small animal practice but actually know very little about reptiles. Exotic vets may know more about rabbits, ferrets + birds.

And again, the thing with any morphs being weak + prone to health problems came about back when the trans. [ transluscent ] dragons were being bred, many were weak + sickly for the first 5 or more years , and the next big morph to have serious health problems were the witblits and similar morphs [ whitish/grey color with no pattern ] I still remember the long discussion on a beardie website where the originator of the witblits [ I believe he was from South Africa ] was defending his new morph and all the controversy over it.

But the leatherback + hypo's have been strong for as long as I can remember. How is Evee doing today ? Is she eating + drinking anything, at least the supplemental food ?


Yea now that I'm thinking about it.. I bet the immune deficiency causing the septicemia is probably a cover for his college not doing her job correctly.. what he meant to say was septicemia caused by negligent doctor at a vet office I happen to be the owner of.. but no connection there..guess I shoulda took her to a different herp all together. Truthfully the only reason I stayed at the same hospital but different Dr diff. Location was when I called him to complain he called her in antibiotics and said he would see me at a reduced price.. im sure u can guess that bill wasn't short 1cent!!
That's what I was wondering..if blood work looked good.. how does he know what it is? U don't think he would just take an educated guess.. like well she had slugs still stuck from a month ago.. previous ones she layed were deformed.. so most likely a yolk infection..and bc reg antibiotics didn't make much of a difference..the infection has to b agressive.. and so I can explain the leg paralysis and pain.. it's gotta be arthritis.. put it together osteomyelitis septicemia!! I mean I coulda and already did figure it wasat least a cousin to that diagnosis.. wonder if he will give me copies of the blood test and x-ray..
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:41 pm

Rayn3bow09 wrote:
AHBD wrote:When you consult with the vet tonight ask him how the septicemia was diagnosed. If her bloodwork was supposedly all good I would think it would have elevated something to indicate infection. But see what he says, be respectful of course. As for how + why exotic vets can practice but be unknowing about certain species, it is quite common. While some of them are sincere + helpful others may think that since they are an animal Dr. that they can see whatever they want in small animal practice but actually know very little about reptiles. Exotic vets may know more about rabbits, ferrets + birds.

And again, the thing with any morphs being weak + prone to health problems came about back when the trans. [ transluscent ] dragons were being bred, many were weak + sickly for the first 5 or more years , and the next big morph to have serious health problems were the witblits and similar morphs [ whitish/grey color with no pattern ] I still remember the long discussion on a beardie website where the originator of the witblits [ I believe he was from South Africa ] was defending his new morph and all the controversy over it.

But the leatherback + hypo's have been strong for as long as I can remember. How is Evee doing today ? Is she eating + drinking anything, at least the supplemental food ?


Yea now that I'm thinking about it.. I bet the immune deficiency causing the septicemia is probably a cover for his college not doing her job correctly.. what he meant to say was septicemia caused by negligent doctor at a vet office I happen to be the owner of.. but no connection there..guess I shoulda took her to a different herp all together. Truthfully the only reason I stayed at the same hospital but different Dr diff. Location was when I called him to complain he called her in antibiotics and said he would see me at a reduced price.. im sure u can guess that bill wasn't short 1cent!!
That's what I was wondering..if blood work looked good.. how does he know what it is? U don't think he would just take an educated guess.. like well she had slugs still stuck from a month ago.. previous ones she layed were deformed.. so most likely a yolk infection..and bc reg antibiotics didn't make much of a difference..the infection has to b agressive.. and so I can explain the leg paralysis and pain.. it's gotta be arthritis.. put it together osteomyelitis septicemia!! I mean I coulda and already did figure it wasat least a cousin to that diagnosis.. wonder if he will give me copies of the blood test and x-ray..

However.. she did seem to perk up alot today.. it was forsure noticable..can't remember if I said this on here or not.. but we spent a few hours outside soaking up the sun at a family function.. to my shock and amazement she bit of and ate a blade of grass!!! First time all month! Hasnt ate anything else willingly, but I don't even have to open. Her mouth just drip on nose.. wait a sec and she will lock it up. She's even got some if her firey attitude back. Maybe best of all..she's starting to use her leg again little by little!! Guessing the Dr got some of that pressure off her spine.. giving her back mobility..idk tho if it was pressure due to eggs combined with anorexia causing the leg... How wouldn't that mean it wasn't magically instant appearing arthritis causing it?? I really just don't know what to think.

Also.. IM KINDA FREAKED OUT BOUT THIS INJECTION I GOTT GIVE.. supposed to pinch up her back wrinkle n do it in that.. but should I shoot it in fast or slow.. or am I just psyching myself out.
? Lol I'm terrified I'm gonna touch her and she's gonna crumble!! Hopefully all goes smoothly. I'll take pics now
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby AHBD » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:45 pm

Here are youtube videos to show how to do injections :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCz8Ly41E-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUHOXAd_xvw

Good to hear that she perked up a little bit though . :)

And yes it would be good to ask for a copy of all her medical records. Tracie can read blood tests + xrays very well.
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby loljelloclowdz » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:04 pm

Only sing (as in only these 2 words) “Spongebob Squarepants” about the same speed as it is in the song when injecting and that should be about the speed you wanna go. (Though it’s good to practice with a dummy syringe just squirting water into the sink or toilet or whatever so you can kinda practice your timing.)

Also I just went to the OB/GYN the other day because I have issues that I’m tired of dealing with, and I said “I get pain in my right knee and ankle when I ovulate,” and apparently it’s mild arthritis caused by whacky hormone levels, so maybe Eevee is just like me and we both just need birth control.

(I don’t think we have any studies on bearded dragon hormones yet, but I feel like a good chunk of stuff that goes wrong with reptiles can be chalked up to hormone issues ranging from thyroid (do reptiles even have a thyroid gland? Lol I’m sorry if this is dumb, I’m pre-med and don’t get to learn the little details about other living things) to reproductive hormones.)


EDIT: lol nvm about the spongebob stuff, reptile doses are smaller than human doses 😂 you’ll probably only be able to say “spon” in the time it takes, Lol.
Marijke - 50% red 50% yellow hypo het trans female w/ blue bars from Kids And Dragons
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:31 am

(I don’t think we have any studies on bearded dragon hormones yet, but I feel like a good chunk of stuff that goes wrong with reptiles can be chalked up to hormone issues ranging from thyroid (do reptiles even have a thyroid gland? Lol I’m sorry if this is dumb, I’m pre-med and don’t get to learn the little details about other living things) to reproductive hormones.)


EDIT: lol nvm about the spongebob stuff, reptile doses are smaller than human doses 😂 you’ll probably only be able to say “spon” in the time it takes, Lol.[/quote]

Lmao!! Well that def lightened the mood and put a smile on my face.. damn shame I cant sing SpongeBob Squarepants tho.. that's interesting about the hormone thing.. I think it's a combination of a few things hitting her all at once.. then not receiving the correct treatment. Really the only thing we got outta these vets that did her any good were antibiotics.. and the damn enemas!! So antibiotics and water up the bum and I'm almost 600 in the hole!!!
I mean geez.. I'll squirt water in her bum any day.. and never pay for butt water again!! I need beardie enema training.. ugh. I'm scared to think about if we make it past this..the next time she produces eggs... I hope she's at least done for the year. I haven't researched average spay prices for them..we r gonna end up living under a bridge when this is over
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:39 am

I decided to Google her antibiotics before giving the first injection it is enroflox (baytril)22.7 mg per ml given once a day subcutaneously 0.1 CC.. what I read about the medicine is is very strong for one is normally only given by injection as a single dose otherwise given orally because it can cause abscesses at the injection site. I'm supposed to be giving her shot a day for a week!!? WTH!!? any other time I would give my pet their medication without questioning the vet but kind of glad I googled this one does anybody know it's okay to give?
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby AHBD » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:55 am

Yes I;m familiar with that write up in Reptiles magazine, I think by Dr. Wissman ?? But many vets still prescribe a series of injections and most people posting here do it that way but I question it myself. I'll p.m. Tracie to have a look here, she has so many threads she's involved with that it's easy to miss some or not get a notification.
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby Rayn3bow09 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:20 pm

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So I tried to get a lot of angles of her body.. poor babe
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Re: Egg binding/Quack vet/I need help!

Postby AHBD » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:20 pm

Yeah, poor little Evee and she's still posing like a pretty girl. How much of the food mixture can you get in her right now ? Will she show interest in any type of insect ? Hornworm, cricket, dubia ? I forgot if she's getting Critical Care formula from the vet. Try adding a bit of raw, unpasteurized honey to any mixture that you give her.
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