Beardie too young to brumate, HELP!

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Hello,

My dragon believe to be a male dragon has not been eating very well and has been sleeping a lot during the day. I believe he is too young to be brumating, but all the symptoms he shows makes me believe he is.

I'm not sure on his age but I got him October 26th and he was about 20 cm ( 7,8 inches ) head to tail. Now he is only 22 cm ( 8.6 inches ). Like I said he barely eats, specially veggies and fruits. Most he has eaten in one day was maybe 10 small crickets in a day. What I sometimes do when he eats a cricket or meal worm is just adding some greens in his mouth while he is still chewing. No problems with his stool as far as I can tell.

I just ordered a colony of dubia roaches so going to stop feeding him crickets since they always escape on me some how. Meal worms I already have a small breeding colony off and will probably continue to give these to him as treats.

I did read some other threads on here that his lighting might have something to do with this. So I will more then likely order a new light and possible a new heat source very soon.

His basking area is right around 40 C ( 104 F ) cool side of his tank on the opposite side is 27C ( 80 F ) these temps where taking with a infra red gun. Also have some small analog temp gauges in his tank.
At night tank stays between the 18-20 C ( 64-68 F )
Humidity is always just above 30%, no water source in his tank.

Maybe should mention he has only shed once since I have had him but he hasn't grown a whole lot so maybe that is why.

Here is his tank, it is about 95 gallons. 120x60x(55 at the widest part and 45 at the narrowest part)
Tank was made using foam and lots of plaster with a water based clear coat on top of it. He is always on the left side of his tank. But sleeps all over the place. That little grey stair case thing he likes to get under and tries to dig.
( I turned his UV off so I would not get as much glare.


This is where he normally sleeps even during the day.



These are the lights I got, if I need something better let me know I can order it ASAP. Only thing is since this actually an aquarium it is kind of hard to mount a T5 or T8 so I went the easier route with a bulbs. But I can figure something out if needed.

 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
RaindropsTickle":1v71l6gz said:
Hello,

My dragon believe to be a male dragon has not been eating very well and has been sleeping a lot during the day. I believe he is too young to be brumating, but all the symptoms he shows makes me believe he is.

I'm not sure on his age but I got him October 26th and he was about 20 cm ( 7,8 inches ) head to tail. Now he is only 22 cm ( 8.6 inches ). Like I said he barely eats, specially veggies and fruits. Most he has eaten in one day was maybe 10 small crickets in a day. What I sometimes do when he eats a cricket or meal worm is just adding some greens in his mouth while he is still chewing. No problems with his stool as far as I can tell.

<< too young if the dragon is younger than 12 months old.

I just ordered a colony of dubia roaches so going to stop feeding him crickets since they always escape on me some how. Meal worms I already have a small breeding colony off and will probably continue to give these to him as treats.

I did read some other threads on here that his lighting might have something to do with this. So I will more then likely order a new light and possible a new heat source very soon.

<<< insufficient UVA will result in lack of appetite and lethargy , and longer term in neurological damage.
<<< insufficient UVB will result in an ability to metabolise dietary calcium and insufficient VitD3 , a failure to thrive and grow properly , and longer term MBD.

Yes the lighting is contributing as the amount of UVB and UVA is totally inadequate and not meeting the hatchling's needs.


His basking area is right around 40 C ( 104 F ) cool side of his tank on the opposite side is 27C ( 80 F ) these temps where taking with a infra red gun. Also have some small analog temp gauges in his tank.
if the temperatures are accurate , the basking spot is OK ( I'd say a tad too hot at the basking spot ).
At night tank stays between the 18-20 C ( 64-68 F )
Humidity is always just above 30%, no water source in his tank.

Maybe should mention he has only shed once since I have had him but he hasn't grown a whole lot so maybe that is why.

Here is his tank, it is about 95 gallons. 120x60x(55 at the widest part and 45 at the narrowest part)
Tank was made using foam and lots of plaster with a water based clear coat on top of it. He is always on the left side of his tank. But sleeps all over the place. That little grey stair case thing he likes to get under and tries to dig.
( I turned his UV off so I would not get as much glare.


This is where he normally sleeps even during the day.



These are the lights I got, if I need something better let me know I can order it ASAP. Only thing is since this actually an aquarium it is kind of hard to mount a T5 or T8 so I went the easier route with a bulbs. But I can figure something out if needed.

>>> very poor quality brand for starters. I suggest you toss it into the trash can and invest in an Exo Terra 26W UVB200 .
26W UVB200 globes are a very good source of UVA & UVB in smaller tanks and tubs
PROVIDED
1) the 26W UVB200 is mounted under the mesh lid
2) the 26W UVB200 is mounted in a good quality reflector dome or nano/micro style (horizontal) reflector hood
3) the distance from the above globe + reflector (dome or hood) is NOT MORE THAN 8 inches.
4) the 26W UVB200 is run at least 14 hour per day
5) the 26W UVB200 is no more than 6 months old.



mvb globes like shown are fine , but you need to set up the basking spot so the UVB is about 190 microW / sq cm at the basking spot.

the UV source ( UVA & UVB ) needs to be close to the basking spot to provide.
Your tank is 50cm tall, so as show, it's way too far away .

exo-terra-solar-glo-80w-mvb.png


to get sufficient UVA & UVB from the MVB the basking spot needs to be about 8" from the bottom surface of the MVB.
Unfortunately MVBs produce a very narrow focused beam of UVA & UVB
arcadia-80-W-chart.png


so you need to supplement the UV gradient by installing at the very least a t5ho 12% UVB tube in a good reflector hood to cover the distance from the MVB as show below :
arcadia-bearded-dragon-lighting-guide.png

and
optimal-stylised-plan-view-layout-of-lights.png
 

RaindropsTickle

Member
Original Poster
kingofnobbys":2y58ays7 said:
the UV source ( UVA & UVB ) needs to be close to the basking spot to provide.
Your tank is 50cm tall, so as show, it's way too far away .

The basking bulb should have UVB rays according to the package atleast. But I have read now some places that most of these bulb including that compact fluorescent bulb not really work. I just ordered a 36 inch reptisun 10 T5 bulb and there brand light fixture, since that is what everybody is recommending.

Edit***

Sorry just now your explanation showed up, ok so on the right path got the right light. Now I will probably take that basking light out too, what would you recommend. the one that is in there does keep the temps perfect in the whole tank. But it is not an adjustable socket
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
RaindropsTickle":39qyl1gu said:
kingofnobbys":39qyl1gu said:
the UV source ( UVA & UVB ) needs to be close to the basking spot to provide.
Your tank is 50cm tall, so as show, it's way too far away .

The basking bulb should have UVB rays according to the package atleast. But I have read now some places that most of these bulb including that compact fluorescent bulb not really work. I just ordered a 36 inch reptisun 10 T5 bulb and there brand light fixture, since that is what everybody is recommending.

But could this really be the issue? Even though it might not be the right wave length of UVA & UVB the basking light and the compact fluorescent on the other end should still emit this.

Yes . the 10% T5ho tube from Zoo Med is OK provided it's mounted no more than 25cm from the basking spot in a good reflector hood . I strongly recommend you order an Arcadia t5ho 12%UVB or their 14%UVB tube in your case ( tank 60cm tall ).

See this for distances :
tie-the-old-arcadia-guide-to-the-new-arcadia-guide.png


The MVB needs to be directly overhead , your MVB appears to be on a dangle angle , this will be spreading the UV flux out over a much wider area at the basking spot , perhaps reducing the UV flux by more a half.
The flux is directly proportion to the area of the illumination and a maximum if the globe is mounted pointing straight down. (very easy calculation to check the diminution in flux at any given distance for the illuminated area.)

I'd rearrange the position of the MVB and add a t5ho 12% ( 14% is going to be better in your tank ) .
When the MVB is 12 months old replace it with a domestic halogen flood globe.

YES - lack of adequate UVA & UVB are the most likely course.
 

RaindropsTickle

Member
Original Poster
ok thanks for the help.

I ordered a 36 inch reptisun 10 T5 light and fixture. It shipped today from Amazon.de.
2 ways I can hang the light on top of the glass support braces or hang it underneath it.
If I put it on top it puts it 11 inches away from the basking spot. and about 12-14 away from the top of that branch that is laying in the tank. ( could always change that side of the tank a bit ) If I hang the light fromt he support braces the maximum distance I could get from the light to basking spot is 9 inches and about 10-12 inches from the branch.

So I have 3 small questions left.

1. since you said "good reflector" is the zoomed reflector that is made for this light good?

2. Does it harm the dragon if the light is too close? in this case im taking about the 9 inch gap between basking spot and the T5 light. Technically his head would be even closer if he has it lifted off the ground a bit.

3. That heat lamp I have now is 80 watt but has UVA & UVB rays. I want to change that probably to a ceramic heat source. Anybody know the equivalent wattage I need. This bulb heats the tank perfectly where it is located and with this bulb. So want to replicate that as much as possible.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
RaindropsTickle":3lbmkkrx said:
ok thanks for the help.

I ordered a 36 inch reptisun 10 T5 light and fixture. It shipped today from Amazon.de.
2 ways I can hang the light on top of the glass support braces or hang it underneath it.
If I put it on top it puts it 11 inches away from the basking spot. and about 12-14 away from the top of that branch that is laying in the tank. ( could always change that side of the tank a bit ) If I hang the light fromt he support braces the maximum distance I could get from the light to basking spot is 9 inches and about 10-12 inches from the branch.
<<< 11 inches from an UNOBSTRUCTED t5ho 10%UVB tube in good reflector hood is fine.

So I have 3 small questions left.

1. since you said "good reflector" is the zoomed reflector that is made for this light good? <<< it's fine , I don't have one I will be installing Arcadia t5ho 24" slimline luminaires with 24W T5ho 12%UVB tubes in them for each dragon, in my new tanks ( will be 50cm tall (solid 9mm thick plywood lids ) shortly. My basking spots will approx. 30cm from the 12% UVB T5ho tubes.

So long as it's a polished metal reflector that got a parabolic cross-section it'll work well at focusing the UV where you want it to be .

2. Does it harm the dragon if the light is too close? in this case im taking about the 9 inch gap between basking spot and the T5 light. Technically his head would be even closer if he has it lifted off the ground a bit.

>>> bearded dragons have evolved to cope with quite high levels of UVA & UVB ( as high as 500 microW UVB / sq.cm in summer , or UV-index > 11 ) .

Australia-January-av-noon-clear-sky-UVI.png

In natural range in January ( mid summer ).
Some Solarmeter 620 UVB microW meter readings are shown in figure 4 in this link
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm
ref to readings for Alice Springs NT Australia , essentially typical for Pogona Vitticepts natural range.

Try to get the UVB flux to about 180 microW / sq.cm at the basking spot ( I wouldn't be overly concerned if it's a bit higher, the dragon will simply bask for shorter periods to get it's required doseages of UVA and UVB.

So long as the UV spectrum is "nice" , it wont harm your dragon who is capable of adjusting it's skin pigmentation to change it's skin's UV reflectivity and it's skin's emissivity.


3. That heat lamp I have now is 80 watt but has UVA & UVB rays. I want to change that probably to a ceramic heat source. Anybody know the equivalent wattage I need. This bulb heats the tank perfectly where it is located and with this bulb. So want to replicate that as much as possible.
The dragon needs a bright "sun like" heat / light source , the CHE is going to need to be the secondary daytime heat source (for cold winter days) and overnight tank heating , not the PRIMARY hear source.

This is the kind of setup you need I think for those colder American and European climates :
viv-circuitry-generalised-schematic.png


Don't mount any UV source ONTOP glass , the glass will effectively block all the UVA & UVB unless it's a special grade of glass that's transparent to UVA and or UVB.
Don't mount any UV source ONTOP a mesh lid unless it's very coarse ( like used in bird cages ) , typically the mesh used in reptile tanks ( even 6mm mesh ) will block a large proportion of the UV ( buy virtue of the thickness of the wire used cf the "hole" spaces , commonly 40% to 60% depending on the gauge of the mesh and it's weave.

Worth printing out a copy of this chart for future reference :
bearded-dragon-loss-of-appetite-flow-chart.png
 

RaindropsTickle

Member
Original Poster
Cool I will keep the basking light then, its only 2 months old and will just replace it every 6 months along with the T5. Thanks for all the help!!
 

RaindropsTickle

Member
Original Poster
Where is that flow chart from, its a little blury by the time I save the image and blow it up

*** not needed anymore found it on google
 

RaindropsTickle

Member
Original Poster
I think I have figured it out! 10-12 inches is ideal with this 10.0 t5 bulb.

So its really easy to attach this fixture to the bottom of these glass support beams you see in the picture below (picture 1). Since it is hanging below I dont have to worry about glass blocking any UVB.
The bottow of the fixture is then 9.8 inches away from his basking spot so right around that 10 inch mark. basking light is between 20-30cm (8-12 inches) from basking spot depending on where you measure it from. (hope these arrows are clear with the dots where I measured from.


Picture below just shows you roughly where im going to put the fixture. Could go more towards the back maybe.



his last picture shows you entire tank from the front view. Again T5 to basking spot 9.8 inches away.
On the right you have the branch that is on the cooler side of the tank. He could soak up some rays here and light will be 11.8 inches away. Again perfectly in that 10-12 inch range.
Everything else that is the ground will be 18.5 inches away from the light. He can get shade under the basking spot and that small stair case. and there is a little half tree trunk think in the back right corner he can hide under.



I think I have it all figured out now what are your thoughts on this?
 

Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Those distances are fine for your t5.

I like to have the t5 no closer than 12 inches at the basking spot. While they can be exposed to uvi levels that high in the wild, they also aren't regularly seen in them. They tend to hide when the sun is that intense (along with most other critters).

Ideally, you want your tube to only run 1/2 to 3/4 of the tank, that way there is a UV gradient (just like a heat gradient) down to lower exposure on the cool end. It's important to provide them proper strength, and it's important to provide them an escape from them. In my 4x2x2's I only use 22 inch t5s. With my setup I can achieve a basking UVI level of around 4. And floor level UVI around 2.5 on the hot end, and a gradient all the way to 0 (no uv exposure) in the last 6 inches of my cool end. This is ideal IMO as just like with temperature, the dragon can choose how much UV exposure it want's to receive.

Just like you wouldn't force your dragon to be exposed to basking level temperatures over his whole tank, you don't want to force your dragon to be exposed to basking level UV levels over his whole tank.

Just read that it will be 18 inches away, at 18 inches away you won't quite be at 0, but that is fair enough. Especially with the hiding areas he has :)

Either way, the lighting upgrade should help. It was quite dark in your tank before and dragons love light! lol.

In regards to your question about changing your basking bulb, remember they like light. I would change it to just a normal household bulb as long as it gets the temperatures you need. No need to use a reptile basking bulb.

Besides that, your temps sound perfect.
What does his daily diet look like?

-Brandon
 

RaindropsTickle

Member
Original Poster
claudiusx":3jbjys2c said:
What does his daily diet look like?

-Brandon

Eating hasnt been great but hopefully solved once the bulb shows up. Yesterday he ate 1 dubia roach, they day before 5. Today I tried twice nothing.

On the light I was thinking of draping some mosquito screen under the t5, it has 1mm sqaure holes. Should reduce the UVB a lot in his basking spot. And like you mentioned at floor level uv light will be a lot lower. He can get shade under his basking spot stair case and under a log in the back right corner.

I will try a house bulb and keep checking the temperatures need to play with that a bit till I find something right.

Hopefully this light will turn him around starting to worry about him. since he is not really growing.
 
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