Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:05 am

The vet decided to try getting the swab without the anesthetics because he said the risk is higher with a RI. His jaw ended up getting fractured and I almost passed out. They are putting him under the anesthetics, they are using a gas one thats supposedly the safest. I feel awful, vet said his jaw should heal on its own. But if I have to syringe feed him, how is this going to work? 😭 How long does it usually take for their jaw to heal???
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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby claudiusx » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:26 am

Wow poor pan.

I'm so sorry you both are having to go through this. The vet shouldn't have forced it. A lot of times they don't even do the swabs anyways, and just go with a nebulizer treatment or antibiotics as a lot of times getting the swab, as you've noticed, isn't very easy.

I wish he would have just agreed to trying the nebulizing treatment first. It likely would have been much easier on pan and yourself.
Let us know how things turn out.

-Brandon
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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:39 am

The got the swab, they found an abscess in his throat. They took a picture of it to show me, I'll see if they can send it to me so I can post it here.

We're waiting for him to wake up right now.
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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby claudiusx » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:54 am

Phew what a relief that you will be getting some answers.

What are they thinking the abscess is from? Did they go over a plan of treatment with you yet?

Poor Pan :(

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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:11 am

Pancake woke up okay. I felt more guilty about his jaw after because when he was fully alert the first thing he did was jump off the table onto me and nuzzled into my neck 😭 Hes such a sweetheart, he deserves the world. He doesnt seem too terribly upset, so far no black beards, he was looking out the window the whole way home and he hopped right up to his basking perch when I put him in his terrarium.

The vet let me look at the microscope slides with him so I could see everything that was going on. The swab from his windpipe was clear, there was some mucous but no bacteria or signs of infection. The abscess, is a totally different story. Lots of bacteria and pus cells. They asked if I fed him superworms or mealworms, apparently thats the most common cause they've experienced for an abscess. I've never fed him either of those, so they are either suspecting that it's from his previous owner or that it formed because of his immune system being down or potentially atedenovirus. They gave him another antibiotic injection to clear his lungs (vet said the reason it was working on and off is because the abscess keeps leaking into his system) along with oral meds to treat the abscess. As of right now, they arent sure if he could potentially have more abscesses farther down, they said if the meds dont make any changes and it turns out he does, he likely wont make it 😞

Regarding the jaw fracture, the vet said they've had reptiles mouths held open numerous times and that hasnt happened before. The vet said he doesnt want to wire it because it could cause more damage. He has always had a little bit of an underbite, and the vet also noted that the other side of jaw is bright white while the side that fractured is yellow. Hes wondering if he had MBD previously, other owner tried to treat him and get overwhelmed and dumped him off at my work before. When he goes for a recheck they asked for me to gather pictures from when I first adopted him so we can try to get an idea on his medical history.

Overall they said soft foods and hornworms/butterworms/silkworms should be okay for him to chew. Im going to put critical care and repashy on the worms so I dont have to try to get him to open his mouth. I'll also have to clean his jaw after every feeding.

The Pan-Fund is definitely coming in handy, I will say that much. I did get the picture of the abscess, I'll post it later tonight along with a picture of him currently.
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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby claudiusx » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:28 am

Thanks for the update! Silks and butterworms and hornworms aren't the end of the world, Pan will have it good for a bit :)

Dipping them in the CC is good too if it works. That's what I did with one of my girls too. I just made the CC not so runny so it would stick a bit better.

The weak jaw definitely could have been from weakened bone structure from MBD.
I've never heard of ADV causing abscesses.

Blackenedsabbath wrote:The Pan-Fund is definitely coming in handy, I will say that much.

So glad you had one. It's always nice to have money put away for things like this.

-Brandon
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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:13 am

All he's wanted to eat for the past few weeks has been silks, butters and hornworms, so I'm sure he will be more than happy about it lol. The vet suggested using critical care for his breakfast, and then using repashy for his supper just to keep variety in his diet.

When I first adopted him his feet would always shake, and two of his front toes were bent at a really weird angle (one of the toes straightened itself out, the other never fully recovered and this vet actually had to remove part of the claw as it started to curl around and dig into his foot). His previous owner had left his tank and lighting with him when he was dumped off at my work, there was no UVB light, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened with his jaw.

I asked how the abscess would be caused by ADV (also being confused), he said something along the lines of how it impacts their immune system just makes them more susceptible to it. So I'm not entirely clear if he's just concerned he could have ADV along with the abscess, rather than there being a cause-effect relationship between them. Regardless, he was saying the meds should help clear it up.

Here is a picture of him now (I'm going to crop the picture of his abscess before posting so you can actually see where it is as opposed to the full operating room where he was sedated).
[Click image to enlarge]

The side facing the camera is the side where he has the jaw fracture. The little bit of blood on his face is from when it was displaced :(
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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby claudiusx » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:24 am

Poor pan! At least his jaw doesn't look really out of place. I hope it will heal up fine for him and stay in the general position it's in now.

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Re: Respiratory Infection- Help!

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:49 am

When it happened the vet said it is natural for them to dislocate their jaw if something that they think is too big for them is put in their mouth, but when he checked to make sure it wasn't cracked is when he found the fracture. It isn't at the back thankfully, he said it's fractured around the middle/closer towards the front. He has been licking his lips on and off because of it, when his mouth is open you can see the front sticking up more. It does look a little swollen compared to the other side.

I gave him a hornworm just to make sure he will be okay to eat; he chewed it on his right side (fracture is on the left) and didn't have any issues.

Also, something I just thought of: I have manuka honey left over from when he had some eye complications, would feeding him a little bit of manuka honey help make sure the jaw doesn't get infected?
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Re: Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:59 pm

This morning there was dried blood on the tile near where his mouth was during the night, and there was a yellow goo all over the side of his face. I cleaned it up and put a manuka and distilled water mixture over his lips. The goo hasn't reappeared so far.

He ate 2 small hornworms this morning, along with a butterworm. I got the idea to put repashy or critical care, and his meds, in a raspberry so I don't have to make his mouth open, but he wouldn't take the whole thing. I ripped two small pieces off a few minutes ago and he ate that, but he won't take anymore food. Not even a butterworm. I don't know what to do, if his jaw hadn't fractured this would have been easier. He needs more food in his system, but there's no way I'm syringe feeding him. Any suggestions?? And what do I about his jaw? It's supposed to heal on it's own but if the meds end up making him lose his appetite or if he won't take anything with the critical care?? :(
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Re: Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

Postby claudiusx » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:12 pm

He just went through a pretty stressful experience so its understandable that his appetite isnt too good.
But at least he ate some! As long as he keeps that up that's great.

If the manuka isnt too thick it might be worthwhile trying to apply it without the use of water. One of the ways honey helps fight infection is the fact that it's super saturated and pulls water from the bacteria cells. So when you premix with water you are also potentially diluting that potential.

Do you think the yellow was pus?

Poor Pan. We are all rooting for you two.

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Re: Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:33 pm

The security camera I have on his terrarium for the week showed he disappeared off of his cave for a couple seconds and then came back. The butterworm i put in his bowl is nowhere to be found lol. He may have decided to eat it afterall.

The manuka I have is pretty thick, it's almost like a caramel consistency. I wonder if he licks some or if I put it on a worm if that will help? It would still be in his mouth right?

I think it may have been pus. It was extremely hard to get off of his face, I went through 15 q tips and a lot of warm water. When he was sleeping with his head down a few weeks ago there would be a sticky drool coming out of his mouth that I felt while putting him in his cave for the night. But the room was dim so I didnt notice the colour. If it was pus, is it a good thing or a bad thing that it came out of his mouth? :/ It would be better than in his system??

I also have a theory that his mouth bled overnight because he was resting his jaw on the tile, so I put a towel (i figured it would be easier to clean than fleece) under his head for tonight and hopefully that will soften it a bit for him.
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Re: Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

Postby Drache613 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:08 pm

Hello,

Oh dear, your poor dragon! That is horrible what you both have had to go through. Good grief,
I hope his jaw heals up quickly. He is young so he should heal up well. I am glad to hear that
he can eat to some extent. Soft foods will definitely help him out.
I'm sure his entire mouth & jaw area is sore. The manuka honey would help out tremendously
so you can use that, plus, he would probably like the flavor.
He may have gotten an abscess from feeding, or just from poor care in general. It is very hard
to know. Adeno doesn't necessarily lead to that type of problem but a mouth injury certainly can.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
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Re: Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

Postby JumpinJellyfish » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:45 pm

You two have been through the wringer! I hope Pan heals quickly and isn't too uncomfortable in the meantime. Remember to pay attention to your own self-care, too. <3
Never knew I could get so happy about poop, or so comfortable with bugs. :-D
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Re: Not an RI, Abscess & Jaw Fracture.

Postby Blackenedsabbath » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:17 pm

Putting the towel under his head while he sleeps is working, his jaw hasn't bled overnight. There was less of the goo yesterday morning as well as this morning.

He seems happiest in the bath. He also let me clean up his face a bit more.
[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]


Also, here is a picture of the fracture: That yellow thing sticking up from the bottom near his tongue is the bone. (He is also going through a shed around his jaw and eyes, which really doesn't help him at all)
[Click image to enlarge]


This is the picture the vet took of the abscess:
[Click image to enlarge]



Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Oh dear, your poor dragon! That is horrible what you both have had to go through. Good grief,
I hope his jaw heals up quickly. He is young so he should heal up well. I am glad to hear that
he can eat to some extent. Soft foods will definitely help him out.
I'm sure his entire mouth & jaw area is sore. The manuka honey would help out tremendously
so you can use that, plus, he would probably like the flavor.
He may have gotten an abscess from feeding, or just from poor care in general. It is very hard
to know. Adeno doesn't necessarily lead to that type of problem but a mouth injury certainly can.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie


Thank you so much for your reply! My mom is suggesting that I try to find his previous owner. My boss knew her somehow, I forget the exact details but I am going to ask if he remembers her name or number. At least we can try to get some idea of what his diet or care was exactly like before.

I will see if I can get him to eat some manuka. So far feeding is incredibly difficult. He will not take any worms with the critical care on them, I tried stuffing raspberries with repashy or critical care and he wouldn't take it, repashy on its own he will not take, and sometimes when he goes to pick up the worms it hits the fractured part of his jaw and he drops it :( I am really lost on what to do. All I have done for the last two hours is try to get him to eat. This morning he had 5 silkworms and 1ml of critical care; which is obviously nowhere near what he should be getting. I lucked out when he happened to lick the syringe for the antibiotics on his own yesterday!!

The vet is suggesting surgery but he's saying he is no shape with the abscess to go through a surgery for the jaw. I feel terrible, I wish we just went with the anesthetic first.

The antiobiotic injection he had is Excede, and the antiobiotic the vet prescribed for the abscess is metronidazole.

JumpinJellyfish wrote:You two have been through the wringer! I hope Pan heals quickly and isn't too uncomfortable in the meantime. Remember to pay attention to your own self-care, too. <3

Thank you! I'm hoping we will be able to get through this with a positive ending. The vet said to see if the abscess clears up, then we can proceed with a surgery for his jaw but Pancake needs to eat more than a few worms somehow :(


Edit:

Okay, he has eaten 2 silkworms, 4 butterworms, half of a raspberry, and I'm not sure how much critical care I've managed to sneak onto his tongue while he's licking. I started with 10mL in the syringe, I'm down to 3mL but he kept shaking a fair amount off of his face.
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