Please advise - won’t eat Veggies OR bugs

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BrightStar

Hatchling Member
My dragon, Rygel, is three years old and has always been a bit of a picky eater. Up until about nine months ago, I wasn’t too concerned about him as we seemed to have come to a sort of understanding. Hw would eat his veggies, but only if I don’t watch, and he would eat his bugs, but only if I hand fed them to him.

Around December of last year, he went off his food completely. I didn’t worry at first - I thought he was just going through another one of his awkward phases, but after about ten days of no interest in anything I fed him, I began to worry. Then the weirdest thing happened - even though he hadn’t eaten in about ten days, he did a pretty large , normal looking poop. This odd routine of barely eating but still pooping has continued since then.

So, here we are now at the end of July, and I seriously don’t know what to do with him. He’s not losing weight, and he seems bright and alert, but he won’t touch his veggies or his worms. I’ve tried every trick suggested here, and offered him pretty much every feeder I can find (except crickets and mealworms) and they just end up dying or pupating because he won’t touch a single one of them. Yet, he continues to poop once or twice a month (and sometimes two or three times a week). I suspect he’s living off of wild bugs that are getting into his cage. I’m really not happy about that, but I can’t figure out how to stop them. He has a mesh lid on the cage but they still get in.

He is in a 6’ x 4’ x 4’ enclosure with a very wide heat range from 85 on cool side, to 107 on hot side. He can also move to pretty much any temperature within that range. I checked his UV light with a solarmeter, and his levels are about 08.3 - 11.9. His lights are on an automatic timer, set to come in at 9am and off at 11pm. Rygel typically never bothers to get himself up out of his bed/blanket unless I actually get him up, which tends to be around 11am.

Any suggestions? I don’t like that he seems to be living off of wild caught bugs. I know some can be poisonous to beardies. We don’t spray for bugs as we have other animals that could be harmed, and I worry Rygel could eat a bug that’s been sprayed and get sick. But , please, anyone —- what can I do ? I’m worried that as well as wild bugs not being safe for him, I’ve no idea whether he’s getting the nutrition he needs.
 

Claudiusx

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8-11 is really too high. He might not be wanting to bask as much as he needs to if he is feeling fried by the uv rays.

Can you post a picture of your setup?
It's great that you have the solarmeter. Are you able to lower your numbers more to a range of 4-6 at the basking zone? And this should leave a gradient down to 0 very easily in such a large tank.

The fact that he is pooping, but going so long between, could be because he simply isn't digesting his food properly, which could be because of the intense UV in his tank. They won't bask if the UVI is too high. Or they will for only short periods of time. It's why they often aren't out basking for long periods of time at noon in the wild, the sun is too intense.

Pooping twice a month isn't really unheard of with older dragons, but it's really kind of walking a fine line of acceptable.

What wild insects would he be eating? If you have a nanny cam you could always set it up on him one day and see if he is infact eating those bugs.

-Brandon
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
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His UVB was actually lower, up until about seven days ago. It was registering at 03.1 but I was worried maybe this was too low, so I raised his basking area to get higher numbers.

He does spend most of his time basking - if he didn’t like the UV levels, wouldn’t he move? He has a good gradient on his basking rock, but maybe I’m missing something about his setup that I need to change?

I have no idea exactly what type of wild bugs he might be eating - I’ve seen small flies and moths from time to time.

88500-355581888.jpg
 

Claudiusx

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Looks like he has a nice big setup! :) 4-6 is what Arcadia recommends. Dr Francis baines recommends around 3.I tend to side with her recommendation, but with such a large tank you have much more leeway. In a large tank like yours, the upper end of 4-6 is ok since you have so many options available for your guy, but I still wouldn't allow anything over 8 IMO.

I didn't realize the UVI change was a recent change.
So lets focus on something else then.

Unfortunately, there are many things that can cause what your describing, so pardon if it feels like you are just answering question after question! lol.

I know you've said you've tried many insects, but I honestly haven't seen a dragon turn down a hornworm. Have you tried them?
What about Dubia roaches, sometimes the speed they have sparks their hunting appetite.

Do you offer him a salad daily? What does it usually consist of?

He isn't trying to sleep through most of the day right?

He looks pretty healthy and well fed in the picture to be honest. It's odd that he isn't loosing weight if he really isn't eating much like you say. That happens when they brumate.

You mentioned that you have to wake him up basically, is it possible he is brumating and would just continue to sleep if it wasn't for your intervention?

-Brandon
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
I’m thrilled to answer any questions you have. I just want what’s best for my guy and anything I can answer that would help figure out what’s going on is a great question.

I’ll certainly recheck his UVB levels and lower them to closer to 3 - it shouldn’t be too difficult. I have his basking rock raised up on some blocks, so I can adjust the height by removing them.

When Rygel started this extreme hunger strike, my first thought was he was going to brumate. But he continued to bask, and then to poop, so I kinda figured it couldn’t be that.

His staple is usually superworms, which up until last December, he loved. When the hunger strike started, I did try hornworms and silkworms, but he wouldn’t eat a single one of them and they died. Both used to be his favorites but he didn’t want them. He’s never been a huge roach fan, though I did just order him some to see whether maybe he’ll prefer them to worms. I even tried butterworms, which he usually loves, but again, not interested. Most recently, I tried Phoenix worms which he devoured when he was pre-adult, and then refused to touch after he got to about 18 months old. He didn’t want them either.

I do offer him a daily salad, which typically consists of collards, turnip greens, arugula, mustard greens , kale, spring greens, bok choy and bell peppers (red, orange or yellow). He’s never been a fan of any kind of fruit. I tried spaghetti squash (cooked) a few months back but he didn’t touch it. He used to be pretty good about eating his veggies and squash when he was younger.

He doesn’t seem to sleep through most of the day, he basks and moves around on his basking rock. He does spend an oddly large amount of time standing up against his back wall - maybe to escape the UV and still be Warm? He’ll climb down from his rock every now and then and hang out underneath it. If I take him outside into the garden he’ll get pretty lively, and he tends to be pretty active when I handle him. I always give him a morning cuddle when I get him up, and then he has a basking spot set up outside of his cage next to my armchair, so I let him hang out there and he’ll often climb on me and come see what I’m doing. He’s always been strange about not getting up in the mornings. He would never get out of bed if I didn’t get him up. A few months back, he went through about two weeks where he did get himself up, but his appetite never improved and after that brief episode, he went back to staying in bed until I get him up.

He seems to be keeping himself well hydrated. I bathe him, or drip water from a eye dropper onto his nose which he licks up. He’ll put his head under his bath water and take a big drink if he’s thirsty.

In desperation, the other day I tried feeding him his Phoenix worms outside. I let him bask in the sunshine, and he started gaping to cool off, and then I offered him the worms. I thought since he gets extra active outside, maybe he’d eat them, but no. I ended up putting one in his mouth whilst he was gaping, but he just sat there with it crawling on his tongue. Eventually it crawled down his throat, and I didn’t see him swallow — he just sat there and it disappeared down his throat. I didn’t think it safe to put another one in his mouth in case it crawled down his throat into his lungs.

It’s odd, I know, which is why I’m convinced he has to be eating wild bugs. I know he looks to be a healthy dragon, but if he is eating wild bugs, that can’t be good for him, right?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Some aren't fans of the veg and greens.

So be smarter than the dragon, give greens and veg you want it to eat to the insects it likes, it'll get them in disguised form inside the gut's of the insects. The dragon is happy, and you will know it's getting the vitamins and minerals from the vegs and greens .

Of cause you can always handfeed some of these veg and greens to the dragon while handfeeding it some of the insects it likes, ie insect , then bit of veg or green stuff while it's chewing ( just takes good timing to get it inbetween the lips at the right moment) , just alternate bug , green , bug, veg, etc
 

Claudiusx

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That doesnt work if the dragon isnt eating bugs either....

In your tank, I'd probably aim for the 4-6 range just because it's so big. It's harder to hit 4-6 in a smaller tank while still allowing for a gradient to 0. So that's why the suggestion of around 3 gets brought up in some cases.

Supers usually cause hunger strikes over anything other than supers! Lol. So he wont even eat his supers now?

His salad sounds absolutely perfect. What a bad beardie letting that go to waste lol!

Honestly it sounds like he has a pretty good life and he sounds and looks healthy. The only thing that's odd is how he is staying so healthy and lively without seemingly eating.

You mentioned the wild bugs, what are the chances that he actually is eating a number of them? 50% 90% 100%?

If hes not loosing weight, and hes not brumating, he pretty much has to be eating something.

What is his weight in grams right now? I'd keep a weekly tracker on it to see what's really happening with his weight.

And..... reallllll long shot here since I just thought of it, are you 100% positive that he is a he?

-Brandon
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
He won’t even eat supers. He’ll kinda tilt his head and stink eye them - most of the time he doesn’t even do that.

I really can’t say for certain how likely it is that he is eating wild bugs. It’s simply the only explanation that I can think of that would explain how he can be healthy and active, and pooping, yet not eating. Sometimes, I do hear him shuffling around on his rock, which I suspect is him moving to snatch up a bug. I’ve tried checking him whenever he moves but never actually seen him eat one. But I do see a fair few flying around his cage, and there are quite a few very crispy dead bug bodies on top of his UVB light, so I think it’s very possible.

His weight today is 481 grams. I’ll weigh him again in a week and see if it actually changed.

His breeder told me she was 98% sure Rigel is a he. How can I tell for sure?
 

Claudiusx

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481g is a good weight. Lets see where he is in a week

To determine the sex, post a picture up like this:
bearded-dragon-male-sexing-determine-the-sex-of-a-bearded-dragon1.jpg


It's important to replicate that camera angle, and that arch in the base of the tail.
The males will have two distinct "lumps" like pictured.

-Brandon
 

Claudiusx

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Yeah I would say he is a male. Lighting isn't the best but I think you can see the lump on the one side of the tail. That wouldn't be present in a female.

Well, it was a long shot :mrgreen:

-Brandon
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
After going through everything here and not finding any obvious reason for Rygel’s lack of appetite, I decided to schedule him for an appointment at the vet. We are fortunate to have a veterinary teaching hospital, with dedicated exotics experts, less than five minutes drive away. I took him this morning, and they said he isn’t holding himself up properly and seems easily exhausted. They’re suspecting MBD and kept him there to do x-rays and blood tests. I’m worried sick. Did I make my little guy ill? I’m watching the clock waiting for them to call with his results.

I weighed him on Sunday and he had gained 20g. He was 481 g a week ago, now 501g.
 

Claudiusx

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I would highly doubt MBD if hes been under a setup like you described for awhile.
But, the bloodwork will be good to see. If you can, ask for a copy and post it up here for us to look at too.

-Brandon
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Good news is that it’s not MBD, impaction or respiratory infection. X-rays came back normal. They also confirmed Rygel is a boy. Blood work results are only partially complete - still pending those, but so far the results they did get back are all in normal ranges. They’re thinking at the minute some sort of virus or infection. They gave him a long lasting shot of antibiotics and said to come back in ten days for another shot.

After going over his whole setup, their only advice they gave me was to offer him a shallow dish of drinking water in his cage, and bathe him every day for the next five days. They said he’s pretty dehydrated. I’ve given him at least five baths in the past two weeks, and offered him water from an eye dropper every other day . If he’s dehydrated, whatever I’m doing seems to never be enough.

I even took in a stool sample, but they complained it wasn’t fresh enough. Rygel did it at 1:30pm the day before whilst I had him outside sitting in the sun with me. I refrigerated it immediately. His appointment was at 11:30 so the sample would have been less than 24 hours old. How much fresher do they want it?

So, now I’m even more worried and Rygel is absolutely freaked out. His beard has been totally black since we brought him home. I tried leaving him on his basking rock, but he’s restless and just black beards and gapes at nothing. Usually I can sooth him, but today he is inconsolable.
 

Claudiusx

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Darn I really wish they wouldn't have given him an antibiotic shot. Do you know what they gave him and the dose?

It's very likely he's upset from the antibiotics. That is very frustrating as antibiotics can do more harm than good when there is nothing wrong with the dragon. Or at least nothing that antibiotics would solve. They should have at least waited to see what the blood results showed... :|

Baths are only beneficial for hydration if the dragon actually drinks in the bath. If not, they don't help hydration at all.

I really feel that there wasn't really anything wrong with him if I'm honest with you. He seemed to be pretty healthy, looked healthy, and he was gaining weight. You wouldn't expect that to be the case with a virus or an infection.

It's just really regrettable in my opinion that they gave him an antibiotic shot. Hopefully the shot in the dark was worth it, and blood test show it might help. I have a feeling it wasn't necessary though. :(
Too many vets just get stumped and feel like that have to do something at least to either appease the owner, or to look competent. That's a dangerous road IMO.

-Brandon
 
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Clapton is acclimating okay I think. He's quick as lightning so I'm not sure how much I should bring him out of his house yet. He's not at all interested in his salad though. I wonder if I should change what I'm giving him. Least he's eating his crickets.

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