Concerned About MBD

My beardie, Cairo, is a little over a year and a half old. I've attached pictures of when I first got her in January 2018, and today - shes beautiful in both of them I've also attached a pic of my set up. I tried to be thorough...





I read a lot of about beardies all the time, and just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I would appreciate any feedback that may help our situation.

Cairo has been very lethargic and not eating. She was sleeping so much, I thought it may be brumation, but it lasted for months. I grew concerned that she wasn't getting enough UVB from sleeping so much, and took her to an exotic vet a few months ago.

The vet said she could be starting to develop MBD, but said her body and tail looked good (no lumps), and said my priority should be force feeding her calcium. He gave me a couple plastic syringes (small and large) and recommended getting a pack of Oxbow overnighted off Amazon, which I did. Oxbow has been her main source of nurishment, since she doesn't have the energy or drive to eat on her own.

The vet also recommended trying different insects (worms), in case she got sick of the same diet. I tried getting some worms (I forget which, the big gross fat green ones) and some raspberries to mix into her greens. She watched the worms with a little interest, but never tried anything.

If I take her out to give her a bath, she perks up (tail and head on alert mode), seems to enjoy the bath, and always poops. If I set her on my porch, she'll stay perked up in the same spot for awhile, but never explores or runs around.


Symptoms:

1.) She's been very lethargic. She will sleep in the corner for days if I don't get her up. When she is up, she's not very mobile.

2.) No appetite. She hasn't willing eaten something on her own in months.

3.) She doesn't poop on her own, without me helping warm her belly, through either a bath or being on the patio.

3.) When she walks, she drags herself a little.

4.) It's rare, but sometime she whips her head around for a few seconds at a time and stops. This also seems to happen more often after squirting either the calcium or the oxbow in her mouth. Different than a headbob, which she has never done. I've also never seen her show any blackness.


Her Diet:

1.) I switch off between Kale, Mustard Greens, and Turnip Greens (daily).
2.) Calcium-dusted Crickets (a few times a week).

She never eats either of these anymore though. She sometimes will try to lick a cricket, but she doesn't have the speed or accuracy that she used to, and always misses.


Other Notes of Interest:

1.) I recently added the ReptiSun UVB bulb in the screenshot. She previously just had the Solar Glo, which should have everything she needs. This is my main suspect, because it seems like she is lacking UVB to get enough energy to hunt or eat, to get the calcium off the crickets. I replaced the Solar Glo every 6 months (I tracked the dates of purchase on the box), so maybe this product has issues? I've always bought the same brand, same bulb.

Now that I have the ReptiSun UVB light, is there such thing as too much UVB? Should I replace the Solar Glo with just a heat lamp?

2.) I read recently that beardies could get too much vitamin D12, which could be harmful. I'm having a tough time weighing what the vet set about force feeding calcium, and having too much D12 (which is in my calcium). How often should I squirt a calcium/water mix into her mouth? It seems like a lot of liquid to do regularly for a dessert animal. I'm afraid of overloading her trying to help.

Any help is appreciated.

Hello,

She is a really pretty girl! She has a sweet face.
I love the SolarGlo MVB light. However, it isn't a real strong bulb, but has a beautiful bright
white light for basking.
I think the addition of the Reptisun 10 tube was a good decision, to complement the MVB. It
will take her some time to build up her strength again, if she was developing metabolic bone
disease. Are you using liquid calcium also, or just powder?
Since you have a good sized tank, I would continue using both bulbs. It wont be too much
UVB since there looks like a few areas in there that have lower UVB exposure for her. At the
moment, you can give D3 a few times per week right now, she probably needs a boost. How
are you giving the calcium, you can give too much. Did he not dose it for you?

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie

Drache613":20gbh2cv said:

Hello,
Are you using liquid calcium also, or just powder?
At the moment, you can give D3 a few times per week right now, she probably needs a boost. How
are you giving the calcium, you can give too much. Did he not dose it for you?

Tracie

Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words and reply.

The vet said "10 milliliters", but honestly I can't remember if that was referring to the Oxbow or the Calcium, since we were talking about both at the same time and I had nothing take notes with. He also didn't mention how many times a day, or how many days a week. Only the large syringe (meant for the Oxbow) has measurement markings on it, so I want to say the 10ml was for the Oxbow. The Oxbow also contains some calcium, so that's another variable in trying to figure out how much calcium to give her.

Since she hasn't eaten in a long time, she has been consuming the liquid calcium only. I've basically been mixing the Calcium powder (with Vitamin D3) with a little water in a shot glass, then squirting it in her mouth (not sure the measurement, but about a mouthful), a few times a week. I was originally doing it everyday, then though that may be too much liquid for her to take on a regular basis and started spacing it out a little more. I'm using just enough water to create the mix, without diluting it too much. Once a week I also add a little multivitamin to the mixture.

Understood the SolarGlo can stay along with the new UVB. She still goes into the shady area and sleeps a lot, with just her tail and/or head poking out from the shadows. Is that enough exposure to the new UVB light to make any difference, or should I be forcing her to have her whole body exposed as much as possible? I usually will give her the mouth squirt, then will place her on one of the platforms below the UVB. She'll stay there for 5-10 minutes, then will make her way back down to her napping spot.

Hello,

How is she doing today?
Do you possibly mean .1ml of liquid calcium? I ask because 10mls would be way way too
much. LOL
I completely understand, that is a hard call. If you are giving the liquid calcium in with the
powdered food, then I don't think you need to add any extra powdered calcium into that
food or in with water. I would just give the powdered food & then the liquid calcium a few
times per week. You don't want to give too much calcium. Is this critical care or carnivore
or omnivore care? Adding the multivitamin weekly is fine.

How far is the UVB tube from her when she is sitting & relaxing? For effectiveness on the
T8 Reptisun 10 tube, I would try to get it within a 6-8 inch distance though so she will get
a stronger UVB dose.

Let us know how Cairo is doing.
Tracie

The Critical Care is for herbivores (the package shoes lizards, rodents, turtles).

Hmm, I'm pretty sure the vet said "10 milliliters" but that was for the Oxbow, not the calcium. The first measurement on the larger syringe is 10, so that looks like it makes sense.

From what you said, it sounds like I'm on the right track now as far as the feeding and calcium intake. If she is getting everything she needs now, how long would it take before I start seeing changes in her energy? She is still in the same sleeping spot. Really the only factor that has changed lately was the addition of the ReptiSun light. I'm not 100% sure the problem was the SolarGlo, I was just guessing based on her body language.

Per my tank diagram, she snoozes about 17" below the ReptiSun UVB all day, without only half of her body exposed to the light, while the other half is in the shadowy area. I will try to get her elevated a few inches closer and have her fully exposed to the UVB as much as possible. Whenever I move her to one of the higher platforms, she doesn't stay very long and will crawl back down into the shadows.

The Reptisun what bulb are you using ? the T8 or the T 5--- distance plays a factor in the UVB
Karrie

T8

The T 8 should be 6-8 inches from basking - at that distance you have it at she is not getting enough UVB I would lower it or raise it to get it to the distance of 6-8 inches from basking---- and no cover on the bulb ----------- you want it exposed for max effect of rays
Karrie

You're getting great advice from everyone but one thing I would like to suggest is potentially moving your reptisun over onto the hot side alongside your MVB. It's more natural to have the highest levels of uv at the hot end with the basking zone. Even when you are worried about not giving enough, you should still focus on having a gradient in your tank just like you do with heat. This way the cool end has low levels of uv and heat, and your dragon can choose where she wants.

They are fabulous at knowing when they need uv, and when to escape it. I've seen it many times where dragons hide a lot simply because they have no place to escape the rays besides their hides.

Additionally, if temps are off they can display lethargic behavior like that too. Since it wasn't mentioned, can you go over your temps with us and what you are using to measure them?

-Brandon

I placed her up on the platforms when I turned on the lights this morning, so she's been sitting 6-8 inches away from the UVB for the last hour or so (there is no cover, the light is hanging directly in the tank). Hopefully she stays up there for awhile.

claudiusx":384qfgwz said:

You're getting great advice from everyone but one thing I would like to suggest is potentially moving your reptisun over onto the hot side alongside your MVB.

Click to expand...

Ok, I will make this adjustment today. My concern is since she never goes to the warm side, that there will be less likely of a chance for her to get rays from the new ReptiSun and I wont be able to test that as a potential variable.

claudiusx":384qfgwz said:

Since it wasn't mentioned, can you go over your temps with us and what you are using to measure them?

Click to expand...

The temps are all on the tank diagram I put together in the first post. They were measured with a digital thermometer.

KrizmKazm":1t7qgeae said:

The temps are all on the tank diagram I put together in the first post. They were measured with a digital thermometer.

Click to expand...

Sorry I'm on mobile right now and the text in your pic is really small for me. I didnt see it at first. I had to zoom lol

Ok good that you're using a digital with probe end

Always just best to cross our t's and dot our I's when something is amiss

Has she actually been losing any weight? It would be good to track if you haven't been.

-Brandon

And in regards to your concern, I fall back to my previous comment about the importance of also being able to escape the rays, and the ability they have to sense them and know when they should be exposing themselves.

I've seen dragons act lethargic because they were exposed to too much uv. I dont think that's the cause of the lethargy in this case, but it's still not best practice to not provide an escape IMO.

Your concern can be easily remedied by taking her outside for 15 minutes or so a day of natural sunlight. This will do her much better than what even our best lighting setups can provide. Plus, now when she gets back in her tank, she will be able to escape the rays if she chooses.

Remember, while uv is important, it also can be damaging and aggressive. Dragons are much more intune with lighting than we are.

-Brandon

Brandon, I haven't noticed any weight loss. She looks nice to me. The people at the vet called her a "Beauty Queen"

I placed her on my patio the last couple weekends. She spent about an hour out there each time. She stood in the exact same spot, perked up, but didn't move or explore anywhere. There was also no direct sunlight hitting my patio, so I wasn't sure if that was worth trying. She did start pooping while sitting out there though. I'm in Arizona, so it's certainly toasty out there.

I will move the new UVB to the warm side, but as I mentioned, I'll be a little concerned since she never goes to that side.

I thought I was providing her an escape from the UVB, since the area she lays in is dark and shaded by the platforms above her. So this question relates to both her hide and my patio - if they are standing in a shadow, does that mean they are getting 0% UVB exposure?

Your patio most likely still has some uv exposure, but not newer as much as if you were in the sunlight.

Your ledges and platforms might be blocking out most of the rays but it's hard to say without a solarmeter. But its is more natural to have the uvb alongside the heat on one end since in the wild the hottest spots would have the highest uv exposure too.

Either way I dont think it's a make or break situation one way or another, its just a good practice imo to have your lighting setup that way.

If you move her to the basking area does she stay there or does she move away pretty quickly.

Lethargy is a hard cookie to crack because there are sooo many causes. Sorry for all the questions.

-Brandon

I don't mind the questions, I appreciate the help.

I just rearranged some stuff, gave her a bath and a little Oxbow, and put her under the basking light. It's been about 30-minutes and she's still sitting there, so I'm gonna leave her a lone for a bit.

I put her on one of the magnetic platforms this morning (closer to the UVB) and she stayed there for about 2 hours, then crawled back to her sleeping spot.

I moved the ReptiSun to the warm side. I feel like the tank is way too tall to get any of her lights in the proper range. I'll either have to (a) have the UVB hanging half way down into the tank, which is gonna look rough and isn't going to be easy to setup if I want to keep my access points through the top. or (b) buy some tiles or something I can use to create more of an incline on the warm side. It seems like I need that elevation to be like 5 inches higher than it is now. I have a bunch of decorations I tried re-arranging to make it work, but it was just getting too crowded.

Payday is close, I'll have to brainstorm and figure out how to make this work. I think if I can find some long S-hooks, I can use those to lower and suspend the ReptiSun further into the tank, then I can just move those platforms so it's not possible for her to get too close to the ReptiSun.