Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

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Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby CindersTale » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:48 am

I have a female bearded dragon whos head has recently been shaking/twitching. It mainly occurs when i hold her or have her out of her cage but ive seen a few times when it happens in her cage too and im afraid this is the early stages of MBD. These spasms arent constant they are very on/off..

Today i put some calcium supplement in her water (flukers liquid calcium) and offered her salad dusted with calcium powder but she isnt wanting to eat. Basking normally with her mouth open, doesnt seem extremely lethargic but a definitely less active than usual and her appetite is pretty much gone. Shes had eggs before but i dont know if shes eggbound right now, i dont feel any lumps in her stomach.
I also own a male beardie whos 3 years old, same food/heat/cage situation and he isnt showing any signs of this.

A few days ago when i noticed her change i bought a Reptisun 10.0 24watt UVB florescent tube and removed the screen lid so she can get full access to it. I also have a 10.0 13watt reptisun UVB coil bulb on her cage too in hopes more uvb light would help reverse it. Shes only ever had the coil bulb for the past two years but after research i obviously changed it when i noticed her shakes which have only been happening for a few days MAYBE a week at most. I dont know if im doing all that is possible to reverse this which is why im posting here in hopes someone can give me direction in helping her.. Ive been stuggling with finances and this is really hard for me since im not sure i can afford to get blood work done and take her to a vet, but i will if its absolutely necessary.

Some more details:
How old: Just over 2 years
Cage size: 40 gallon breeder
Heat: 95 in basking, 88 on floor, and 81 on the cool side. Measured with digital thermometer
White day zilla day light and purple/black night light. Her basking area lets her get within 6 inches of ubv bulbs/heat.
Food: Kale, Yellow squash, mustard greens, Superworms, Crickets, Green beans.

Edit: Shes also been alot paler recently which could be shedding, but just incase i thought i should mention it.

Thank you so much.
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby AHBD » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:42 pm

Hi there, it could be calcium or vitamin related. Since you just got a new uvb it could help since this just started. You might go with some liquid calcium, one of the mods. here sells it on her site. She sells vitamins as well.


http://bug-de-lite.com/

But it may take a little while to reverse so be patient.
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:05 pm

CindersTale wrote:I have a female bearded dragon whos head has recently been shaking/twitching. It mainly occurs when i hold her or have her out of her cage but ive seen a few times when it happens in her cage too and im afraid this is the early stages of MBD. These spasms arent constant they are very on/off..
I've seen this for a while with one of my dragons (Rex) when I forgot to replace my old 26W UVB200 globe and it was still being used when it was about 8 - 9 months old :
==> the head shivers is a symptom of UVA deficiency and is easily fixed by upgrading the UV source to a better quality Arcadia or Zoo Med or Exo Terra globe or tube of at least 10%UVB rating and at least 24W.

I replaced the old 26W UVB200 with a new one and the symptoms you are describing vanished within a couple of weeks .

Today i put some calcium supplement in her water (flukers liquid calcium) and offered her salad dusted with calcium powder but she isnt wanting to eat. Basking normally with her mouth open, doesnt seem extremely lethargic but a definitely less active than usual and her appetite is pretty much gone. Shes had eggs before but i dont know if shes eggbound right now, i dont feel any lumps in her stomach.
I also own a male beardie whos 3 years old, same food/heat/cage situation and he isnt showing any signs of this.

A few days ago when i noticed her change i bought a Reptisun 10.0 24watt UVB florescent tube and removed the screen lid so she can get full access to it. I also have a 10.0 13watt reptisun UVB coil bulb on her cage too in hopes more uvb light would help reverse it. Shes only ever had the coil bulb for the past two years but after research i obviously changed it when i noticed her shakes which have only been happening for a few days MAYBE a week at most. I dont know if im doing all that is possible to reverse this which is why im posting here in hopes someone can give me direction in helping her.. Ive been stuggling with finances and this is really hard for me since im not sure i can afford to get blood work done and take her to a vet, but i will if its absolutely necessary.

Some more details:
How old: Just over 2 years
Cage size: 40 gallon breeder
Heat: 95 in basking, 88 on floor, and 81 on the cool side. Measured with digital thermometer
White day zilla day light and purple/black night light. Her basking area lets her get within 6 inches of ubv bulbs/heat.
<<<< is the Zilla day light an curly UVB bulb
how old is it ?
, what wattage ?
, what UVB rating ?
or something else ie Neodynium UV globe or just a basking globe ? photo will help.

If it's a Zilla UV compact curly globe it's not good (cheap Chinese knockoff)
, if it's only a 13W compact it's never been strong enough in UVA & UVB
, if it's only a 5% it's too weak PERIOD
, if it's older than 6 months it needs to be replaced ASAP (the phosphors inside these decay and it will be lucky to be emitting even 1/3 the UV it should at 6 months old



The purple night globe unless it is a mushroom shaped ceramic heat emitter like this : https://www.ebay.com.au/i/282224443173?chn=ps
it's fine.
If it's a Night Glo Mini Bulb like this :
http://www.aquariumspareparts.com.au/ex ... _KEALw_wcB
it emits a visible glow at night and will likely be disturbing the dragon's sleep and so needs to be removed.



Food: Kale, Yellow squash, mustard greens, Superworms, Crickets, Green beans.

Edit: Shes also been alot paler recently which could be shedding, but just incase i thought i should mention it.

Thank you so much.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby AHBD » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:09 pm

The O.P has a Reptisun 10.0 tube mounted in the tank. The Zilla is not the uvb, it's the heat/basking bulb .

BTW Cinder, can you post a few pics of the set up , including lights ? Here's how :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:27 pm

AHBD wrote:The O.P has a Reptisun 10.0 tube mounted in the tank. The Zilla is not the uvb, it's the heat/basking bulb .

BTW Cinder, can you post a few pics of the set up , including lights ? Here's how :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them


I spotted that …
A few days ago when i noticed her change i bought a Reptisun 10.0 24watt UVB florescent tube and removed the screen lid so she can get full access to it. I also have a 10.0 13watt reptisun UVB coil bulb on her cage too in hopes more uvb light would help reverse it. Shes only ever had the coil bulb for the past two years but after research i obviously changed it when i noticed her shakes which have only been happening for a few days MAYBE a week at most


the dragon has only had a 13W compact and it was ontop a mesh lid too , so insufficient , the dragon would literally have to ware the 13W compact as a hat to get enough UV from it.
Not told us how old the compact UVB globe is either , very likely didn't get told it needs to be replaced every 6 months so it's likely well past it's useful life.

The new Reptisun 10.0 24watt UVB florescent tube (T5ho ??) is going to help and is a better UV source than a compact UVB globe.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby AHBD » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:32 pm

She has both alongside each other,with the screen removed. The Reptisun long tube as well as the compact to offer more uvb. Easy to miss these details, I do it sometimes too.
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:39 pm

AHBD wrote:She has both alongside each other. The Reptisun long tube as well as the compact to offer more uvb.


These things take weeks or months to develop and become symptomatic (and noticeable). See above.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby AHBD » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:43 pm

Yes I know, I addressed that already in my first comment. We're now talking about her current lights , and calcium/vitamin supplements. I mentioned that now that she has the better uvb it will take a while to see results.
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:57 pm

I suggest observing the dragon over the next few weeks to month , if the symptoms don't disappear or they get worse it will then be something that needs a vet to investigate , may be a symptom of a vitamin or mineral deficiency or even of a vitamin toxicity or something neurological or viral.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby CindersTale » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:18 pm

The compact bulb is two weeks old, ive been changing it every 4-5 months. But its been ontop of the mesh this whole time so its pretty much done nothing i was just extremely ill informed from my breeder who recommended that bulb.. Only recently after browsing on here i learned those are horrible to use and the mesh sucks up nearly all the UVB. The new UBV is indeed a t5 ho, and its ontop of her tank since the mounting hooks have not come in yet. Shes been moving alot and basked under it for a few hours then scooted away alittle (as shown in the photo)

Heres the UVA lights i use,
Night: https://www.amazon.com/Zilla-Reptile-Te ... N6X5CYSQ9W
Day: https://www.amazon.com/Zilla-Reptile-Te ... te+100watt
im looking into ordering a good ceramic heater instead of the night light to avoid disturbing her sleep. I feel horrible i didnt know about this earlier but im trying my best to fix it and become better equipped to give my beardie the best possible care. The bulbs i order are 100watt, not 50 like the link shows.

Heres a link to the supplements im using aswell: https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Reptile- ... RSPBD6E99R
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fluker-s-Liq ... 1UEALw_wcB

And heres her basking setup. Im sorry i couldnt get a good angle and please ignore all the washcloths, she hates walking on the tile + i covered her basking "branch" so it didnt burn her feet.[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:16 pm

CindersTale wrote:The compact bulb is two weeks old, ive been changing it every 4-5 months. But its been ontop of the mesh this whole time so its pretty much done nothing i was just extremely ill informed from my breeder who recommended that bulb.. Only recently after browsing on here i learned those are horrible to use and the mesh sucks up nearly all the UVB. The new UBV is indeed a t5 ho, and its ontop of her tank since the mounting hooks have not come in yet. Shes been moving alot and basked under it for a few hours then scooted away alittle (as shown in the photo)

Heres the UVA lights i use,
Night: https://www.amazon.com/Zilla-Reptile-Te ... N6X5CYSQ9W
<<< is a poor choice of night heat source because it gives off a visible glow that is very likely to disturb the dragon's sleep.
These are more suited to nocturnal geckos and frogs.

I suggest replacing it with a similar wattage CERAMIC HEAT EMITTER if the room and tank get colder than 21 degC overnight , the beauty of CHEs is they can left on 24/7 over winter to supplement the basking globe

Day: https://www.amazon.com/Zilla-Reptile-Te ... te+100watt
im looking into ordering a good ceramic heater instead of the night light to avoid disturbing her sleep. I feel horrible i didnt know about this earlier but im trying my best to fix it and become better equipped to give my beardie the best possible care. The bulbs i order are 100watt, not 50 like the link shows.
<<< good move

Heres a link to the supplements im using aswell: https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Reptile- ... RSPBD6E99R
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fluker-s-Liq ... 1UEALw_wcB

And heres her basking setup. Im sorry i couldnt get a good angle and please ignore all the washcloths, she hates walking on the tile + i covered her basking "branch" so it didnt burn her feet.[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby AHBD » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:50 pm

Once she starts getting good uvb it should help but you also need vitamins . You have 2 types of calcium but no vitamins. Get some of this :

https://www.amazon.com/HERPTIVITE-Multi ... B00076HT3S

She may be lacking in B vitamins aside from a calcium deficiency. I think I linked you to the bug de lite website as well so you could opt for the mulivitamin there which is actually a better one. The Herptivite has calcium + D3, the one on bug delite I think does not.

http://bug-de-lite.com/

Tracie [ username Drache613 ] is one of the mods. here + is the owner of that company.
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby CindersTale » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:00 pm

Thank you! i will order the Herptivite multivitamin asap, I couldn't find any instructions on the page about how often to give it to her though. Any recommendations on that?
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby AHBD » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:27 pm

You just dust one meal very lightly 2-3 X a week at most. There's not a real exact science to it but it's best to err on the side of caution by not using too much of anything. BTW, most pet stores carry it if you want to see about getting it locally. How's your girl doing , is her name Cynder ?
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Re: Beardie with MBD? Head shakes. Please help

Postby CindersTale » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:15 pm

Aha yes her name is Cinder :') Thank you so much for all your help and guiding me through this.
Shes refusing to eat today, i got her to eat a few dusted superworms yesterday but she just isnt having it today.. I offered salad, a grape treat, superworms. Nothing interested her which is worrying since her appetite is usually double the size of Russia. Is it best to just keep offering and hope she decides to eat soon?

She did poop today, but the urate is almost chalky and it was all very compact/a weird shape + Her face has gotten paler, which could just be shedding but i'll attach an image just in case so you can have a look. Thank you so so much for your help again.<3 [Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
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