Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia - RIP

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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby LizardoBombardo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:15 pm

So sorry to hear about your sick little dragon. I just wanted to ask if you've tried Oxbow critical care for feeding. I had success feeding that to my dragon when she was sick. You can get the vegetarian diet, I got vegetarian and carnivore and mixed the two. There are insectivore powdered diets out there, but I believe they need to be prescribed by a vet. You can also add your calcium powder and/or vitamin powder to the critical care or the veggie slurry you mentioned. I unfortunately don't know how to help with the pneumonia, but getting good nutrition might give him the strength he needs to fight this off. All the best to you and your little guy.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby Drache613 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:10 pm

Hello,

How are things going this evening? I am so sorry that he is having such a hard time right now.
Does he seem to be doing better after discontinuing the tramadol in the mornings?
I do think you are doing absolutely everything you can for him right now! Just continue to do the
nebulizing treatments right now. Hopefully without the use of the tramadol, he will start to feel a
lot better. I feel horrible for him.
Yes, you can use F10, saline water or distilled water, mixed with a medication for nebulizing.
How long has he been on the Ceftz now?
Everything sounds good with the setup right now. Please keep us posted on him.

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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:25 pm

So sorry to hear about your sick little dragon. I just wanted to ask if you've tried Oxbow critical care for feeding. I had success feeding that to my dragon when she was sick. You can get the vegetarian diet, I got vegetarian and carnivore and mixed the two. There are insectivore powdered diets out there, but I believe they need to be prescribed by a vet. You can also add your calcium powder and/or vitamin powder to the critical care or the veggie slurry you mentioned. I unfortunately don't know how to help with the pneumonia, but getting good nutrition might give him the strength he needs to fight this off. All the best to you and your little guy.


Hello and thanks for your concern. I have tried Oxbow Critical Care, and have used it a lot. I decided to not use it this time though. I bought a Magic Bullet specifically for my dragons. I have another dragon at home, that needs to be supplemented her veggies in slurry format, otherwise she would eat barely any. So for him, I make a new slurry weekly. Whatever veg I use for salad, and my dubias and or supers in the Bullet. This week he is getting, endive, green cabbage, celery tops, carrot, acorn squash with 6 dubia and a pinch of bee pollen blended to perfection. I sprinkle the vitamins (calcium/multi) in when required at feeding. I just though that fresh weekly since I had the resources would be better than packaged, prepared foods. Not that there is anything wrong with critical care at all, and I am not entirely opposed to using it, and will likely use again in the future.

How are things going this evening? I am so sorry that he is having such a hard time right now.
Does he seem to be doing better after discontinuing the tramadol in the mornings?
I do think you are doing absolutely everything you can for him right now! Just continue to do the
nebulizing treatments right now. Hopefully without the use of the tramadol, he will start to feel a
lot better. I feel horrible for him.
Yes, you can use F10, saline water or distilled water, mixed with a medication for nebulizing.
How long has he been on the Ceftz now?


Ok, so I wanted to wait a couple of days before posting to ensure what I was seeing was correct. I may have had a little break through :blob5:

I discontinued the Tramadol in the morning, and assumed that that was making him lethargic. It really was. The day I took him off he literally leaped into my hands. He has been leaping from my hands to his viv daily now. But he does not move around his viv much preferring to bask, sometimes very vertical. I use the Tramadol in the evening, mostly to help with sleep. I will use this until I notice that the black beard is gone for good.

He has been on Ceftazadime IM injections since the beginning of December, my other dragon was on Ceft. for a long, long time (2.5 months). I do not want to treat him more than he needs, but even before that horrible vet trip he still had signs of RI, and so I do believe he should definitely be on the Ceft for a while longer. He was also given Metronidazole, on January 2nd, after his horrible vet visit, so he is still on this as well, but he was only given 7 doses of this.

I have as of January 7 increased the F10 sessions to three times a day, 20 minutes per session. He gets a little bothered by being in his chamber (I can actually tell now, more on that later), but I know it is helping him, at the very least it should be loosening that very, thick, mucus so deep in his lungs. I do find that he is lighter in beard color after these treatments. So despite the high humidity it causes for those sessions I am going to continue, and I will cut down the 3 times a day treatments, when I notice a non-vertical stance, and somewhat normal respiration.

Now for the good news, on Monday morning I saw the first sign of a somewhat happy dragon. In the morning his beard was so light, just slightly grey to the outer edges. It did turn black later, but after his F10 treatment, again was lighter, and then again went darker. Fingers crossed, on Tuesday morning, he was light again :blob8: , got a little darker in the day, but he was not the jet black that he had been for the last week. Thank goodness. On Tuesday, he was mostly light bearded, some grey, but so much better that before. Today, he was completely normal! A normal dragon this morning...holy miracle! So this is how I know he is little angry at his chamber, as this morning, when I removed him from his treatment, he was light grey...light grey!!! Which toned down when he was in his viv. He does go through spurts now of dark and light. Which is so much better than jet black extending to his chest (at least this is what I tell myself). So we are not out of any woods yet, we are definitely still in a forest, but I am so happy, hopeful, and a little calmer now that I see some normalcy of color. I honestly did not think this was going to happen, and really expected a dying dragon. I hate to say this, but last week I bough him a box just in case. However, I do know that his situation is still critical, and I know that he still needs loads of care. I know that this could still end up bad. But I am going to fight right along with him for as long as he lets me. I will keep you posted.

One question: Does anyone know how these guys get rid of the mucus if they cannot cough? I swab whatever I can from his mouth twice a day, but he will not sit inclined downward, he will not sleep on a downward incline either, so he is not able to drain any mucus from his mouth that way.
Last edited by bayoupig5 on Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby AHBD » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:32 pm

That's so great to hear this ! :blob5: I thought he'd be better once off the Tramadol. :) As far as the mucous, hopefully as the meds. clear up the infection, that will be taken care of as well.


But again, so far so good, much improved + things seem to be looking up !
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:25 pm

Update - Things are good. Black beard no more, and it has been like this for about 1.5 weeks. I have taken him off of Tramadol all together, about 1.5 weeks ago. Metro is finished, but still of Ceft. He is sleeping well, and eating salad and bugs all on his own, no more slurry for this guy. Color is great, and weight is back up to normal.

He still has some mucus, and now after all this time I have actually seen a bubble or two. I think the mucus is loosening up, as I have never seen bubbles before. This stuff is sticky and stringy though. After his F10 treatments 3 times per day, I swab his lips and mouth to remove any brought up mucus. He lets me with just a little resistance. He does not mind his little chamber sessions anymore either. Sometimes, for the first time ever, he even breathes normally. The other night, after lights went out, I checked on him and I could not see any respiration :blob8: This has not happened is soooo long, mind you it only lasted for a couple minutes, then he went back to heavy, then to normal. He mostly even breaths with his mouth closed now. There is a little coughing , huffing, still, but he no longer seems distressed, he does at times show stress marks belly wise.

I have tried to look into is mouth/throat to see if I can actually see if anything is caught in there (like the vet suspected), but cannot get a good view, he is a fighter, and I do not want to stress him further. I will keep trying.

However, I know that there must have been a mouth injury, as when I have swabbed at times there is a small amount of bright fresh blood on the Q-Tip. I do not think this is from the lung or mucus, as it does not happen all the time or even that often. When I have inspected his mouth, the right side looks redder and more tender than the left, and yesterday I noticed a little discoloration on the right lip. I think it might be an area of shed, but cannot be sure and am keeping my eyes on it.

Plan - keep up the Ceft, continue 3 times per day F10 until the end of this week. Reduce F10 to 2 times a day, keep up with the Ceft. Cross my fingers and hope for the best.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby AHBD » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:08 pm

Nice to hear that he seems to continue to improve. Good for you and good for him. :)
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:17 pm

So and update. Overall, I think little Tinks is doing ok. However, he is now trying to brumate, which is not good. I let him cool side in his cave for a day and then return him to the warm end, but his appetite is definitely lower. Still eating, but not much over the last two weeks. Supplementing with homemade dubia/veg slurries.

However, although he has improved a lot....no more eye watering, no more forced coughing, no more vertical stances, no more mucus on the side of his mouth during the day, no more dried mucus after sleeping. He still makes popping sounds every once in a while. Usually after eating or getting angry. Not often, but they are still there. Once in a while he gulps, and once in awhile his respirations are heavier. But overall things seem to be better.

He is still on Ceft Inj, I have one left. I am taking him for a check up on Friday to a different vet, as after the last incident, the original vet did not want to see him, and I think I need to get a different opinion anyway.

I am a little concerned though, he was diagnosed at the very end of November, has a terrible set back end of December, and has been on Ceft the whole time. Does it usually take this long to recover? I have managed to look down his throat twice, and could not see anything abnormal or foreign except for some mucus.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby AHBD » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:44 pm

Everything sounds good for now, really. Didn't he have the setback when the vet forced his mouth open ? I'd give him a break, this visit could bring on stress + a flare up all over again. A little popping sound would not be anything serious.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby Drache613 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:24 am

Hello,

I am glad to hear he has shown improvement. Usually it takes awhile to fully recover from a
bad respiratory infection or pneumonia. He was pretty stressed though after that last vet visit
with your vet!
I agree, give him a bit more time & finish up the last Ceftz shot first & give probiotics too for
helping get his system back in balance. They sure know when to brumate don't they, at the
worst times.


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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:17 am

Hello to you both! I am a little worried about a vet visit too, but I miscalculated and the last Ceft Inj is on Thursday. So by Friday he is done, and there is no more.

I am worried about the stress of the vet visit, but at the same time think he should be re-checked, as I will be going away at the end of March for a few days and will leave him in the care of my niece. I feel that I should do this prior, especially if he is no longer on antibiotics. I will be extra vigilant with the vet though and if he seems to be stressed at all I will call it done.

I am also concerned, as his pooping sounds, although minimal were never heard prior to any diagnosis. So I feel if I leave that alone, I could also potentially exacerbate the problem.

I have never had to deal with any respiratory issues before, so I am not sure if he should be on antibiotics until all popping goes away, or if he should be taken off, and hopefully heal on his own. Also from what I have read, a lot of dragons are put on very short antibiotic terms 7-10 days. He has been on Ceft since November 28th, and has also had two terms of Metrodizanole as well.

His trying to brumate is driving me insane too. We have recently had an very extreme cold spell the last three weeks which is likely what brought it on. I am balancing, keeping him stress free and happy. Letting him do what he wants to do, without letting him get too cold, trying to get some basking time is for feeding. Feeding him slurries, as he is not wanting to eat on his own well enough (1-2 worms a week) to hopefully maintain his immune system and nutrition stores...aaarrgghh.

I am winning though so far. I did stress him out on Friday, by giving him a warm bath after quite some time, and he was not having it, hissed at me, then coughed, then stayed black for about 3 hours. So I will not be bathing him again, that is for sure. The cough, heavy breathing did not last long though so that is a plus, and his weight is the same.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby Drache613 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:36 pm

Hello,

That is very frustrating I know, when they keep trying to brumate when they have been ill.
Has his beard been dark at all, after his tantrum?
He has been on the Ceftz for a while so I think he should definitely go off of it for now. He
is probably pretty tired of it & you can't blame him. He definitely didn't want a bath at all &
was mad for that long? They sure can get worked up over things like that & be mad for hours
then take forever to calm back down. Bless him!
Is his weight stable right now? How often do you feed him slurries?
I would definitely keep him a little warmer overnight, while he sleeps just to keep his immune
system boosted up well.
I think right now, you are doing all you can do. It seems like he has improved so he should
be on the right track now. Do let us know how he is doing!

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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:37 am

Tracie, thanks again for your response.

Mostly no, he is fine when he is in his hide or resting, most of the time he is fine if I make him bask. Once or twice his beard has been blacker, but not for long, and sometimes it is grey, but again not for long. However, it is also hormonal season, and I keep taking him out of his happy spot (brumation). So I am not very concerned. He does seem sleepy, but again, blaming brumation, as he will generally perk up his head high, and walk around a little. This behavior has only been noticed the last week and a half and his eating has slowed as well.

The Ceft. is hard, between my two lizards I have been injecting Ceft. for 5 months! I did notice the last Ceft. inj I gave him caused a little more bleeding than usual, and there is some swelling at the site. This has never happened before, but I suspect that it can.

So with the bath, I put him in, he tried to get out, he settled, and then pooped, of course!. I wanted to give him a good soak, so I replaced the water, put him back in, and he tried to get out, for at least a good minute before sort he stopped, turned black (beard), and sort of spat or hissed, which of course, expelled some residual mucus, which is why I think he was so angry. The little bit of mucus in his lungs must have shifted.

His weight is fantastic, he has been so good at maintaining it through this. He even gained during this whole episode. Right now he seems to be stable around 368 to 375 grams. He ate 1 super this week, at his usual max he can eat about 12 per week, at minimum he eats about 5 per week . He had not wanted to eat any veggies for about two weeks. I make my own slurry for supplement with bee pollen, multi vitamin and calcium, with various greens and veg, sometime a little berry and blend in dubia roaches and supers. I offer fresh veg and bugs first, and if he does not eat will introduce the slurry. I am feeding him slurry about 3-4 times per week. Last week he had about 15 mls in total, this week had so far only been 5.5 mls.

For heat, the main basking areas is about 103-105F and has been since the end of November. I added another small 50 watt spot further down the basking area to bump up the overall warm area temperature, and placed his wooden viv (warm side), in front of the base board heater for the room which is set to about 68F.

I am still doing F10 nebulization. In early January it was up to three times per day, mid January to mid February was twice per day, and the last two weeks I reduced that to once per day. I am not sure if the F10 helped or not, this has been such a long and drawn out process, we are into the 4 month mark with this resp issue!!!. Wow!!! These resp infections are brutal. I just wished I knew how he got it in the first place.

Anyway, I can never hear popping when he is resting on my shoulder, I had him out for an hour pop free, but every once in a while, it will rear it's ugly head, so I know there is some residual mucus.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:39 pm

Well...another first and not good. He threw up his slurry from yesterday this evening and has been black bearded ever since.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby Drache613 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:44 am

Hello,

Oh no, that isn't good at all. Is his beard still black this evening?
It has been a long haul for you both, with his ongoing respiratory issues. I think at this point,
it would be best to let his body rest from the meds & see if his immune system kicks in. Are
you giving bee pollen & vitamins right now to help his system out?
It does sound like he got awfully mad at getting a bath though, they will get mad & stay mad or
worked up sometimes for hours before calming down.
At least his weight has stayed so consistent through all of this, it has been quite an ordeal.

Please let us know how he is doing.
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Re: Worse Symptoms After Vet Visit - Pneumonia

Postby bayoupig5 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:30 am

I am so frustrated, and heart broken. Every time I think I am in the clear....then BAM.
Anyway, he was black well into the night, even sleeping. You know the kind of black when the rest of their body goes pale :shock:
As of this morning, he was moving about, still wanting to rest, and not as black as before. He has been getting bee pollen semi regularly throughout, and vitamins as well.
I am no super hopeful though, it has been a long haul for him for sure. Maybe he is not tying to brumate, and maybe something more severe is going on. Especially when seeing that vomit. Some mucus of some kind seemed to come up with it, and it is reddish. I have attached a picture, but A) this is not normal and B) it looks bloody, so...yikes. My poor guy. It has been a really rough few months for me and my dragons.
Vet visit is today, I almost do not want to go to add to his stress, but feel I have to at this point.
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