front leg weak, now back leg weak?

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front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:26 pm

Experienced owner, currently own 3 beardies, all females, in separate vivs.
Have a 7 month old leatherback female beardie from a good breeder, got 3 months ago.
11/25 - front left leg started acting weak, she would kind of drag it along.
No accident that I know of.
12/14 - Had prolapse x3 within 24 hrs, I pushed back in, gave sugar soaks, switched to 100% liquid diet of ReptiBoost with a little liquid calcium added.
Front leg improved a bit over month, but now dragging again.
TODAY, LEFT REAR LEG STARTED acting weak, and she's dragging it for the most part.
I have seen her move both of these limbs, so not actually paralyzed, but seems to be pain?
No evidence of accident, no dropping, no outward injury.
Refused superworm x3 today.
Pooing daily - "normal"

???? Could prolapse and limb problem be related?
???? Could stress of me rearranging viv cause this?
???? What could be causing it? What should I try?

HUSBANDRY:
PRIOR to problems: Feed superworms, collard greens, yellow squash...NOT a very big or aggressive eater at all! Eats 2-3 superworms/day (always dusted)
Reptical w/D3
Drinks water out of bowl, and I drip it on her nose every day until she stops
Smooth Rock substrate
Rock cave/hide
No hammock
2 mopani wood climbing logs
2 resin palm trees 10" tall (no pieces missing, so not ingested)
Zilla Desert 50 T8 UVB 24" tube (new 5/1/18...to be replaced soon)
Added 70w merc vapor lamp last week
40 gal Exo Terra breeder tank
Zoomed deluxe hood with UVB tube and 3 more bulbs
1-Exo Terra Halogen 50w
2-Merc Vapor 70w
3-Exo Terra basking bulb 75w
All lights are above metal screen top
Lights are on 14 hrs/day
Basking temp spot around 94-96
Cool side about 86
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby destiny1998 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:22 pm

Hi. You said all lights are on top of the screen. The uvb light needs to be underneath the screen. Those t8 bulbs are weak and the screen blocks most of the rays. If you are going to keep the lights on top of the screen then you'll want to get a t5 reptisun 10.0. Those are stronger and can be on top of the screen.
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby Drache613 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:11 pm

Hello,

The Zilla T50 desert series is an ok bulb but not the strongest. However, which MVB did you
just purchase that is 70 watts, a Megaray?
What type of thermometer are you using to measure the temperatures?
It sounds like he/she is suffering from calcium issues, causing muscular weakness right now.
I would give the liquid calcium 4-5 days per week right now & consider upgrading to a stronger
T5 tube bulb to help out.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:31 am

Thank you so much!
Yes, Megaray 70w MVB
Using Digital thermometers, and an instant read gun
I usually use an ExoTerra Repti-glo 10.0 fluorescent tube on all my vivs, is that a good bulb?
I do have one ZooMed fl tube in one viv.
I could cut the screen out where the Megaray is, think that would be OK?
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby CooperDragon » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:50 pm

How far above the basking rock is the 70w MegaRay? Those should sit relatively close. I have my 100w MegaRay bulbs around 12'' above the ground. A 70w should be a bit closer and maybe 8-10'' or so if it's siting on top of mesh which will intercept some of the UVB. They have a fairly narrow beam so I prefer them as portable basking lights and use a T5 in the main tank since it produces a nice wide even spread of UVB over the basking area.
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:29 pm

The Megaray 75w is 11" from basking area. I cut the screen out in front of it, so there's a 5"x5" opening.
I ordered a Exo Terra Solar Glo 125w MVB today, which will be tad closer.
Also installed a new Exo Terra ReptiGlo 10.0 fluorescent tube UVB.
I'll move the Megaray 75 to my other dragon's viv where basking is 9 1/2" away, and cut that screen as well. And...Ordered a new ZooMed 10.0 24" UVB fluorescent tube for that viv and viv #3.

??? Have any thoughts on cause of prolapse? Pelvic bones/area could be weaker from reduced calcium?
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby CooperDragon » Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:25 pm

Could be dehydration, insufficient UVB or heat to digest properly, weakened muscles or bones as you mentioned. I can't say for sure but those are often the culprit.
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby AHBD » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:27 pm

Sorry to hear this. :( My guess is a combination of weak uvb and not much calcium powder. She would get far more calcium powder if her diet was mainly crickets or dubia because she would be eating 30-40 of those a day in 2 feeding sessions. Right now 2-3 superworms a day is not a proper diet at all and the calcium intake would be very low. Superworms are also a bit harder to digest and that would cause her to be more prone to prolapsing again. Cut those out right away. Offer her water with calcium powder mixed in, get some critical care supplement from the vet + add liquid calcium as well

Good that you ordered some proper uvb bulbs and hopefully with diet change she'll do better.
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby Drache613 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:52 pm

Hello,

How is your little one doing?
I agree, his condition is most likely complications from weak UVB, etc. Hopefully a new &
stronger light & supplementation will help him out!
Please keep us posted on him, we are all pulling for him.

Tracie
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:42 am

It's really weird, but this little girl never had any normal appetite....3-4 supers was all she'd eat. I had dubias and crickets, she would watch them, but not really chase them. I even put her in a smaller empty tank with just the dubias...and she didn't go after them at all. Same with crickets. She'll only eat a few tiny bites of squash or greens. Last week I started giving her chicken baby food to augment.
She does seem to be moving the legs a little more today thankfully!
Been giving her the ReptiBoost and liquid calcium 2x day. Keeping basking spot around 96.
She's gained 26 grams in past 9 weeks----> 52 to 78 grams. Correction, she's 6 months, 1 week, not 7 months.
I've always used either ZooMed or Exo Terra UVB fl tubes. But when I rescued a dragon in April, and had to set up a new viv, the Zilla bulbs were quite a bit cheaper on Amazon, and I went for them, even though I'd never used them. Then when I got this leatherback I set up another viv and used the spare Zilla bulb. Wow, never again!
The rescue beardie is an adult, and has a voracious appetite...and I don't see any affect on her...she'll get one of the new UVB tubes that arrive tomorrow.
The Oxbow carnivore arrives tomorrow as well. Has more protein etc than ReptiBoost.
Thanks again for all the input!
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:20 am

Update: Day 13 since starting treatment regime:
Left limb movements were getting much better, but 3 days ago left leg appears to be not moving again, but I did see it move some today.

Removed screen, new UV 10.0 bulb, plus a 135w MVB. Moved 70w MVB to 2nd viv.
Basking spot is 9.5" from MVB.
Basking temp goes up to 100, but usually stays around 95-96.
Lil' Zeus shuttles between basking and shade below, otherwise pretty lethargic, compared to my 2 adult dragons.
Giving Fluker's liquid calcium with Carnivore care & water, about 3ml per day split into 2 does.
Now also using baby food squash instead of water sometimes.
Using syringe to give.
She won't eat supers or greens.
She did actually eat 6 Reptiworms on her own a few days ago, won't do it today.
Will drink water off her nose daily.
Bath every other day.
BM 1-2/day...mostly liquidy but has the white and brown, kind of color of Carnivore care/squash.
78 grams...exact same as 2 weeks ago.
With force feeding I swear she hates me now.... :(

I'm wondering when she'll start seeking food again? I realize the supplements are meeting all her nutritional needs, so is that why she's not hungry? Or is it because she still feels crummy maybe?
She's NEVER had much of a prey instinct.
No sunken eyes, no wrinkles in skin (she's a leatherback, so I can see them)

I was so disheartened when she stopped using the rear leg again..... :(
I'm retired and the viv is right next to me so I'm able to watch her mostly all day.

Anything else I should do or change anything? Thanks!
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby LizardoBombardo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:26 pm

I might have missed it, but did you mention what the temps are like at night? Especially if she's not feeling well, higher temps at night like around 80F could help her recover a bit faster. I've heard of impaction causing a semi-paralysis, but that is usually just the hind limbs, not the forelimbs.

Hopefully the UVB and calcium treatment starts to kick in, I would assume it takes a little while for their system to get back on track, so keep at it and be patient. Has she been losing weight?
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:11 pm

Temps at night have been about 75, so I'll up that to 80. I have a IR bulb.
I too thought about impaction/paralysis, but it's both left limbs, and she's got regular BM.
She has not been losing weight, but she's stayed exactly the same last 2 weeks, at 78 grams. She's now 7 months old.
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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby Drache613 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:19 pm

Hello,

I was hoping to hear she had improved more. Is she in good spirits I hope?
How close is the tube bulb to her now? I am glad to hear you cut a hole in the screen to help
with the UVB exposure.
Definitely for now, try to keep her tank temperatures around 80 overnight to help keep her
immune system boosted.
Can you think of anything that could have caused impaction for her?

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Re: front leg weak, now back leg weak?

Postby BeardieKat » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:45 am

Can't think of anything but supers that may cause impaction, but she's pooing regularly now.
I removed the screen entirely, so all lights are unobstructed.
Fl Tube is 11" away.
IR bulb for night burned out first night!, Ordered 11w ceramic emiter, arrives Friday.
SURFACE temp of stone basking area with MVB goes to 100, with 50w halogen also on, goes up to 110....so I just ordered a slightly lower MVB (100w v. 125w). I cycle the Halogen on and off a few times (2x) during day to reduce temp.
Using her left leg a bit more today, and climbing her palm tree trunk.
Eating a few little squash bits & reptiworms on her own yesterday.
And ate 2 supers just now entirely on her own, as they were crawling around tank! (No coaxing) Yah! Yesterday was FIRST time she's sought food on her own. This is a huge improvement!
I think she is showing better spirits, she's stretching her beard, which I've been told generally indicates a general wellness, a good state.
All in all seems like a really good turn in last 24 hrs. :blob5:

I wonder if her leg can / will ever return to "normal" function?
You all helped me catch this pretty early, but I'm not clear if all symptoms can be totally reversed.
Thoughts?
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