Some unfortunate updates...

So, I haven't been posting as much as I was here lately, and it's mostly because Oscar has been keeping me very preoccupied. I work night shift, so on days that I'm scheduled to go in at night, I sleep during the day. My usual routine is to feed Oscar before I go to bed (around 7-8am), and then again before I leave for work (around 4pm). His lights are on until 8pm after that. At any rate, a few weeks ago I woke up in the afternoon as I usually do to find Oscar hunkered down in the corner with a black beard, and a swollen jaw. I figured the worst, of course, and thought he somehow broke his jaw, and I promptly set up an appointment with a nearby vet that took in reptiles (btw, kudos to whoever it is that shares that list of reptile vets in the US, because that's what I used and this guy was fantastic). Unfortunately, reptile vets seem to be in high demand around here, and it took a couple of weeks for a day to be available to get Oscar in. With that in mind, I got some carnivore care and soft tipped syringes and began feeding Oscar a mix of carnivore care and his usual calcium supplement. It's worth mentioning that this was not just prompted by the potential injury, but he was clearly in pain, and had gone from eating about 30 dubias in one setting to around 5-8 on a good day.

Those few weeks eventually passed, he kept his weight up thanks to the syringe feedings, and then I was finally able to get him into his appointment just yesterday. X-rays didn't show any jaw fractures, which was the best news of this visit. The vet seemed to think that the worst case scenario was that Oscar tore the cartilage that holds the tip of the bottom jaw together, somehow, but he could not definitively confirm that and had to give an open diagnosis. Furthermore, he also stated that Oscars bone density was excellent, he had no reason to believe MBD to be the cause of the injury, and everything he said about a proper setup was almost verbatim the information I've received on this website. All in all, he doesn't believe there to be any care related issues.

The bad news of the trip, however, is a little more difficult to take care of. The vet believes that Oscar has some congenital issues related to neurological and renal status. He seemed to have less of an issue as far as renal status is concerned, but x-rays did show a decent sized mineral deposit around the right kidney. He didn't seem particularly concerned with this at the moment, but did suggest that I watch for any signs of potential gout. The neurological issues, however, are where things get a little more complicated. Just to give a little bit of background that I wouldn't usually share, I am a registered nurse. I know what to look for in humans when it comes to neurological concerns, and I don't know why I never thought to look for those things with a bearded dragon.

The vet was concerned with Oscar's posturing however. When he pointed it out it seemed so obvious to me, but I guess I never thought to look for a point of reference regarding normal neurological behavior in bearded dragons (this is my first reptile ever, after all). When he pointed it out I immediately thought "decorticate posturing" which is something we look for in people when assessing neurological changes. It's basically where an individual sort of "bunches up" towards the center of their body, inadvertently. The vet didn't use that exact word, but he described it that way, and I began to notice it myself when it brought it up. He also mentioned that there definitely seems to be some issues with Oscar's hind legs. He tends to stretch them out forward towards his head when he's at rest, and he has some issues with ambulation. Again, I've never had a point of reference in this regard, and I had been operating under the assumption that Oscar was just kind of clumsy. As he's gotten bigger, however, I've definitely noticed that clumsiness to be more prolific.

At any rate, the ultimate conclusion I was given by the vet was to continue to provide supportive care, administer anti-inflammatory medication for the jaw (which is already looking better, fyi), and return to offering normal diet which providing the carnivore care as a supplement if needed. In the long term, the vet ultimately told me that if Oscar declines or fails to exhibit improvement in appetite that he would suggest the possibility of euthanasia. I was pretty taken aback by the suggestion at first. By all right, Oscar is bright, alert, and still likes to snuggle up at night as always. I thought the suggestion was a little presumptuous, but now that I've had some time to mull it over, I can better understand why he brought it up. If it's a congenital problem, it is very unlikely to actually improve. While I could continue to provide syringe feedings for the rest of Oscar's life, what kind of life would that really be? Where is the enrichment in that? At any rate, I'll be waiting to see if the jaw heals up completely, and hope that Oscar's appetite returns as the pain subsides. I'll also be monitoring a lot more closely for any neurological changes.

I thought, at the very least, his progress was worth sharing here for the sake of contributing some information to this forum. I also wanted to mention (again) that I got Oscar from Petco. I really didn't know better at the time, but I can only ascribe those congenital problems to the breeding practices of the reptile sources that they utilize to stock their stores. In hindsight, I wish I had known to seek out a reputable breeder. I do care for this little guy, though, and I hope that I see some sort of improvement. I have no intention of giving up on him.

Hi there, I'm sorry to read this about Oscar, it's so sad + makes you feel helpless when a pet is in this type of situation. Can you post pics of Oscar [ full body ] a few of his jaw and then of his entire enclosure, also listing the lights you use ?

Did the vet consider possibility of an abcess, cyst or cancerous mass ? With cancer I'm sure that the WBC would be off but some dragon's develop painful cysts in their jaws.

What type of supplements do you use and how often ? B-12 deficiency can cause neurological problems, and if he's getting too much calcium it can cause kidney issues.

But if he's beginning to look a bit better there's no reason to put him to sleep. If the pain + the eating issues go away then I'm sure he can live a decent life whther he has a few mobility issues or not. It does not affect an animal psychologically as it does a human , they are still content if they can scoot around + stay comfortable.

But please answer the Q's that I posed, part of his problem may be genetic but part may be dietary [ too much or too little of vitamins + calcium ] and thus be treatable. Best wishes to you + Oscar !

I use rep-cal multivitamins every other day, and rep cal calcium with d3 once every day. I'm thinking about going to just plain calcium without the d3 though since it seems to be a kind of controversial anyway.


I use a reptisun 10.0 t5 uvb bulb with a reflector. He has a 50 watt reptisun basking bulb as well. Temps are fine.

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the swollen jaw. It has improved significantly and isn't really the primary issue anymore. It just promoted the vet visit. Posturing though:

He curls his toes like that pretty much all the time, and he also bunches his arms under himself like that. He also extends his back legs forward towards his head when he lies down to rest. He was doing it pretty much the whole time I had him at the vet, but I don't have any pictures of it other than that one. Being that lab work and x-rays were normal aside from the mineral deposit, the vet is currently operating under the assumption that the problem is congenital.

I agree with you though. I'm not seriously considering having him euthanized at this point, especially not for mobility issues. My bigger concern is his appetite. If I wasn't syringe feeding him, he would be horribly malnourished, because he only eats about 5 roaches a day if left to feed himself. As I said, I could syringe feed him for his entire life (and I would absolutely do that for him), but I question if that would be fair to him. I am looking at his disposition more than anything though. He is currently happy and alert as long as he is fed. I'm giving him time with the pain medication to rule out his jaw being the problem.

Hello,

Bless him, he does look pretty happy though, so definitely putting him down isn't an option
right now. They can definitely surprise us with how well they can recover.
Did the vet feel his neurological issues were strictly genetic or from kidney issues? Do you have
a copy of the blood tests by chance? The 25 Hydroxy levels need to be looked at on an ionized
calcium test too. The bones can look good for awhile before leaching is noticed.
I would cut the D3 way back to just once per week & use plain calcium the rest of the times.
Too much D3 can cause hypervitaminosis problems also as it can become toxic. I agree with
AHBD, calcification & mineralization is a problem with oversupplementation. Those sypmptoms
look quite a bit like early metabolic bone disease problems. As stated, B12 or thiamin deficiency
are also possibilities.
You have a great UVB light & as long as he is getting good calcium, then he should be good there.
A lot of times, genetics play a huge role in their health absolutely. Inbreeding causes so many
issues & many of them have calcium absorption issues which leads to the neurological problems
even with good lighting & calcium supplementation. The tube bulb is mounted directly over
head correct & not on the back wall? It appeared that way from your pictures.
Did he mention testing for adeno virus at all?
I'm glad to hear his jaw is healing up. I hope it's not hurting him too badly.
Hopefully he wont develop gout, but just be sure he is well hydrated & on a moderate protein
intake with plenty of healthy greens, too.

Keep us posted on Oscar.
Tracie

I don't have a copy of the labwork, unfortunately, he just told me he doesn't think we're dealing with mbd. That was why he decided to go with the open diagnosis on the basis that the neuro issues are congenital (seperate from the possible kidney problems). The uvb is mounted on the ceiling. I even have it on chains so i can raise/lower it as needed.

From my understanding of the meeting he wants me to continue with a normal diet (carnivore care as needed) and see if there any changes in the next two weeks. Does the rep-cal multivitamin provide everything he needs?

I think it's additionally worth mentioning that he has been a clumsy climber since the day I got him. I never thought anything of it until this vet visit though. He kind of throws his back legs up to get on things, and really fumbles around when he climbs. I'm rearranging to reduce the amount of climbing he needs to do to bask, but I did want to throw that out there.

Hello,

Sure, I can understand the reasoning there. Just covering all bases!
It is quite possible the inbreeding has caused some issues. I do think however, that you should
be able to offer a quality of life that he will be happy with. A lot of them live with less capacity
than others & are still happy. If he has a reason to stick around, he definitely will keep his
fighting spirit.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Definitely agree on just making sure he's happy. I really have no intent on having him put to sleep just over some mobility issues. As for current status, I'm still just very worried about his appetite. I'm still having to syringe feed him pretty regularly. He's not interested in bugs at all.

Hello,

How is your boy doing today?
You can gradually cut back on the syringe feeding to see if his natural appetite will come back.
Have you been using bee pollen to help with appetite?
Alot of dragons have mobility trouble & do just fine. I think if he's happy, his quality of life will
be very good because he will be with you.
Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

His appetite hasn't really improved much. I've been just leaving a bowl of roaches in his viv throughout the day, but he's still only eating about 5-8 total for an entire day. I've been doing syringe feedings every other day instead of every day just to keep his energy and calcium up. I have also been giving him a dose of meloxicam every other day in case his jaw is still sore.

He's pretty lethargic though. His energy level seems good for a couple hours a day (he'll even explore if I let him out in my bedroom), but he's been winding down for bed at around 5pm. He used to be active and basking until lights out (8pm) every single day. I've been taking the opportunity to do some bonding at least, because he's definitely not been happy with the regular syringe feedings. He's napping on me right now while I write this:

Hello,

He looks comfortable. I hope his appetite starts to pick up. I'm sure he would rather not have
to endure syringe feedings.
How long has he been on the meloxicam for? Sometimes that can affect mood & appetite, too.
That is a good sign though, that he still likes to explore around in your room.
I hope he feels better soon. Keep trying with him & let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

So..... I know it's been a really long time since I posted and updated on Oscar. Thankfully, I have good news. While his neuro symptoms haven't improved, they also haven't appeared to have gotten any worse. He's suddenly more energetic than he's ever been, and his appetite is stronger than ever too. I actually got him off the syringe feedings a few weeks ago, and he suddenly started sucking down the dubias like he couldn't get enough of them!

…. on the mend then

That's good to hear ! You must feel a bit relieved. I think one thing to keep in mind, since he had some mineral deposits around he kidneys is do not use too much calcium powder. Just a very slight amount 3-4 days a week. It msay even be that his decreased dubia intake actually helped him because the dubias were probably calcium dusted quite a bit, and eating 30 would have been a lot of powder depending on how much you use.


BTW, do you use powder with or w/out D3 and how much per feeding ?

My dragon had a bad fall off his bridge and had some of the same problems getting around, his eyesight is still a bit fuzzy and i have to hand feed him but hes starting to walk like he used too but it takes so much effort that he conks out after 10 steps or so! They are very resiliant critters and with a lil tlc they will bounce back. If anything Draconis is more loving than before. I hope your little guy has made a full recovery by now is on the way to making one! He is very cute BTW!