Upper Respiratory - Baytril Failed

Hello all,

My little Aerogore had an upper respiratory infection the end of last month (April) and I started treating him with Baytril 2.5%, 0.20mL every night before bed (at least 2 hours after food/supplements) for 10 days. After 1 week, he started to show improvement in his breathing and color. After the 10th day, he was good for about a week, but the last three days or so I noticed he is starting to breathe heavy again, and fluff out his beard making that weird gargling sound. The saliva came back. His stress lines came back and his beard went dark. So his upper respiratory infection obviously relapsed.

My issue is, he has only been off of the Baytril for like 14 days, and I know Baytril, like any antibiotics, tend to be pretty stressful on the system. Obviously, I have to treat the RI, but I am hesitant about giving him another round of Baytril so soon.

I basically put him on "bed rest" status, just like I did in April when I noticed he wasn't looking well before I started the Baytril.

I have been giving him a supplement called Reptaid which supposedly gives the immune system a boost.

I raised his temperatures a few degrees, so now we are flirting with 107-110F on the basking site, and about 78-80F on the cool side.

I also raised his heat at night and have him sleeping on a bed with a heating pad underneath so his temperatures stay up throughout the night.

I have been giving him a warm bath daily in hopes of breaking up some of the mucus, since they can't cough. Also, since he really only takes a drink in the bathtub, I want to make sure its offered in the way he likes it every day to keep his fluid intake up. He really won't drink any other way. We tried the eye dropper, or the dripping sink method, but he just sits there and doesn't respond to it, and closes his eyes and waits for it to be over.

Another question is, his humidity gauge reads 10-15%, so I have no idea what is causing him to get sick, let alone, get sick again. The humidity gauge is definitely not broken, because I took it in the bathroom when I took a shower to make sure it registered the change of the hot steamy shower. It definitely works. His temps are good. UVBs are brand new, changed them in April.

His appetite is a little wishy washy because he is sick, so I have been using Repashy Grub Pie, Grubs and Fruit, Bluey Buffet, and a few others to ensure he gets adequate nutrition. Also, its way easier to shove supplements like Reptaid into the slurry food instead of fighting him with an eye dropper. Plus he is kind of used to this feeding method, and willingly licks up the food off the tip of his nose. He seems to like the flavor, and seems to enjoy it. Especially the Grub Pie.

We did try the downward slope sleeping method, but every time I would lean him forward like that, even on a small incline, he would freak out and turn the other way so his head would be at the top of the incline. I don't really want to force the position on him if he is really not into it. Especially since he can't vocalize what he is feeling. So we gave up on that.

He is about a year and a half old. He is in a 48 x 18 x 18 tank. Reptisun 10.0 UVB strip light. Regular basking bulb. Old Temps 100-105F / 73-76F New Temps 107-110F / 79-82F.

Wipe down his tank every week, and throw his reptile carpet in the washer machine on HOT for 2 cycles, one with soap, and one without. Extra rinse cycle at the end of each cycle. I use F10 SC vet disinfectant to clean his tank, and then wipe it down twice with water afterwards, and ensure it is completely dry and no trace of disinfectant is left on any surface. I also take his basking rocks and decor and soak it in HOT water. He usually has a normal bowel movement every 48-72 hours. Pretty regular. His diet mostly consists of Repashy. He started turning his nose up on insects a few months ago, and since then will only eat Repashy. He is a little spoiled. Every couple of weeks, I buy a small batch of dubias from the petstore and see if he would be into them, but the end up dying off because he won't eat them, and waits for me to spoon feed him Repashy like a baby. He gets multi vitamin twice a week, I use two different kinds. I use the RepCal Herbavite, and then I alternate with a liquid multi that I found on beardeddragon.co. He seems to enjoy the flavor. I think its like the Flintstones vitamins for Bearded Dragons. I am not sure which of them is better for him, so we kind of alternate between the two. For Calcium, I alternate between Repashy Calcium Plus, and Rep-Cal's calcium. Every other meal. Again, not sure which one is better for him, so we alternate between the two. He gets plenty of baths. Anytime he poops, he gets a bath. Everytime he sheds, he gets baths daily until its over.

Also to note, since I keep reading that humidity is the main cause for RI's in beadies, I bought a cordless dehumidifier (should be here Thursday) as an extra precaution in case the humidity gauge is wildly inaccurate and I am relying on a POS. Oh, yeah, anyone have a brand/model of a humidity gauge they trust? Please share. I feel like they are all crap at this point. I went through at least 10 of them in the past two months trying to figure out how my baby is getting sick.

Anyway, getting off track here. What I want to know is the following:

1 - Is doing a second Baytril dosing 14 days after his last dose okay to administer?
2 - Is there anything else I can do aside from the Baytril?
3 - Is there anything else I can do to improve his comfort and symptoms while he gets better?
4 - How does he keep getting sick if there is no humidity registering in the tank?
5 - Reliable procedure for monitoring humidity and/or a dehumidifier brand/model they trust in their tanks.

Thanks in advance

Hello,

Your tank setup sounds fine to me. Do you have any pictures we could see of the setup,
just to be sure everything is placed correctly?
How far is the Reptisun 10 tube from him, is it mounted on top of or underneath of the
screen top? Is it directly beside his basking light also?
Some dragons just don't like sleeping in that position. I really don't blame them, I don't think
it would be all that comfortable.
Accurite has a humidity gauge that is pretty good quality you could try. I don't think it's the
humidity now. They can be prone to respiratory infections & many times the traditional
medications stop working. I would try using a nebulizer to medicate so that it penetrates
deeper than just oral medication. They have a hard time clearing out debris & a lot of times
the infections come back & are stubborn.
Keep cleaning as you are doing, it will help using the F10 to disinfect. I think though that the
initial infection never fully cleared up & just flared up again.
You can use Baytril, Gentamicin, Ceftz or Tylan/Tylosine with the nebulizer treatments.
Are you using a probiotic after the Baytril treatments to help keep his appeite up?

Tracie

Re: Upper Respiratory - Baytril Failed
Unread postby Drache613 » Wed May 23, 2018 1:37 am

Hello,

Your tank setup sounds fine to me. Do you have any pictures we could see of the setup,
just to be sure everything is placed correctly?
How far is the Reptisun 10 tube from him, is it mounted on top of or underneath of the
screen top? Is it directly beside his basking light also?
Some dragons just don't like sleeping in that position. I really don't blame them, I don't think
it would be all that comfortable.
Accurite has a humidity gauge that is pretty good quality you could try. I don't think it's the
humidity now. They can be prone to respiratory infections & many times the traditional
medications stop working. I would try using a nebulizer to medicate so that it penetrates
deeper than just oral medication. They have a hard time clearing out debris & a lot of times
the infections come back & are stubborn.
Keep cleaning as you are doing, it will help using the F10 to disinfect. I think though that the
initial infection never fully cleared up & just flared up again.
You can use Baytril, Gentamicin, Ceftz or Tylan/Tylosine with the nebulizer treatments.
Are you using a probiotic after the Baytril treatments to help keep his appeite up?

Tracie

Click to expand...

Hey Tracie,

He usually chills on his hammock and never goes on his basking rock, so I moved the basking bulb to the hammock area on one side of the hammock, so he can basically pick and choose if he wants heat or not.

As for the UVB lights, I have one single strip light going across the entire tank (mounted inside the tank below the screen). Then, I have two additional little UVB strip lights on the side of the tank since he really only seems to hang out on either side of the tank and wanted to ensure he was getting adequate UVB light because he was a rescue with terrible MBD when I first got him.

His back legs still won't work (never did), but we do what I like to call are "physical therapy" sessions, where I take the legs and kind of move them in a walking position for him to kind of get the circulation going. My hope is that one day his legs will come back online, but who knows. My vet said that it may be permanent, and related more to nerve damage from malnutrition in combination of the MBD from the "fantastic" care he got at PetSmart. Poor thing. Anyway.

On the other side of the tank I have his "bed cave" where he also frequents. It's basically like a cushy machine washable cat bed with a giant cave over it. Underneath it I have a heating pad on like a 1-2 just to give a surface area of around 85F so he doesn't get too cold when he sleeps there, especially since he is sick, want to try and keep those temps up to boost his immune system.

The rest of the tank has a reptile carpet with a soft micro fleece crate pad in the middle only because he drags his back legs and don't want him to hurt himself when he jumps down from his hammock and walks to his cave.

I have a half log thing, and his veggies/fruit that I offer him every morning. I really don't want the tank "too busy" for him because he has a hard time moving around.

I have been thinking about trying to construct some kind of wheel chair for him out of matchbook cars, but the designs are still a work in progress at this point. Just ideas on paper.

He usually stays about 6-8 inches from the UVB light when he is on his hammock which is now his basking area. He spends a good amount of time on there.

I take his body temperature often with a thermogun, and make sure his belly stays over 100F when he is basking. His digestive system is pretty sound. Trust me. No issues there. LOL.

I had a fecal done last month. All good. I am usually good with that, its only $40 bucks, and its peace of mind. I usually have it on my calendar to do every three months.

His lights were replaced last month. Also on my calendar to replace every six months.

I have his main basking bulb, and then non-heat emitting LEDs for extra light sitting on the top of the screen.

Tank is 48x18x18. I am actually looking for a tank that is the same size that is acrylic in the same dimensions so I can reuse the cabinet it is sitting on. This way I can drill into it to mount his lights and make it look better. I had velcro, but velcro only stays sticky for so long so we had to supplement with gorilla tape when I noticed the bond was getting weak and starting to separate from the tank. I also want a tank that opens in the front so it would make it much easier to clean and/or get him in and out of the tank. Right now, I basically have to climb up on a step ladder to get inside there because I am too short to reach. Short people problems. LOL

As for the neutralizer treatment, do you have instructions as far as what to use, and how much water/medicine ratio? I read about it but was hesitant about doing that unless I knew for absolute certainty I knew what I was doing. I heard people actually doing it with the F10, but that didn't sit right with my intuition. And I certainly wouldn't want to be boxed out with a disinfectant. I just imagine being stuck in a room huffing windex or bleach and how much that would suck. But, some people swear by it. Again I wasn't sure on the ratio of water/solution to use so I never tried it. I wouldn't be against it, as long as I knew for sure I wasn't using too much solution.

And the Reptaid supplement I have been dosing his food with also keeps his appetite up. I haven't had any problems with that thus far. I was actually looking for a probiotic on beardeddragon.co just to play it safe.

Excuse the washcloth, he just had dinner and a bath. The washcloth makes for a perfect bath towel for him.

Hello,

Sure, do you have a nebulizer now?
You can use 1ml of Baytril to 5mls of distilled water or a saline solution. Do a daily treatment
for 10-15 minutes or until the solution runs out.
How is he doing today?
The UVB tube, is it mounted overhead of him? It looked like it was mounted on the
back wall, it's hard to tell. How close is the tube bulb to him? It's hard to know whether or
not his leg strength will come back or not. The tank looks fine though, towel & all! LOL He
is a great looking dragon.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Re: Upper Respiratory - Baytril Failed
Unread postby Drache613 » Fri May 25, 2018 12:12 am

Hello,

Sure, do you have a nebulizer now?
You can use 1ml of Baytril to 5mls of distilled water or a saline solution. Do a daily treatment
for 10-15 minutes or until the solution runs out.
How is he doing today?
The UVB tube, is it mounted overhead of him? It looked like it was mounted on the
back wall, it's hard to tell. How close is the tube bulb to him? It's hard to know whether or
not his leg strength will come back or not. The tank looks fine though, towel & all! LOL He
is a great looking dragon.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Click to expand...

Hey Tracie,

Yeah they are mounted INSIDE the tank on the back wall. When he chills on his hammock, which is a majority of the day, he is approximately 6-8 inches away from the UVB light source. I say 6-8 inches because he is on an incline, so his head is 6 inches from the light while his tail is 8 inches away. The one on the back wall of the tank is probably 15+ inches away from him when he is on the floor, which is only when he comes down to make a poopy, or walks to his cave. His favorite poopy spot is right in the middle of the tank for Mommy to see it and clean it up right away. That's where the crate cushion comes in super handy, because I can just toss it right in the wash right away. I doubt that light on the back wall is really doing much for him since its so far away, but I didn't want to move it any closer to he floor because it would interfere with the hammock on the other side. I was afraid he would try and climb on it and end up burning himself. So it is kinda there just to be there. The smaller ones on the sides of his tank are the ones that really do the job. He really doesn't spend any time in the middle of the tank anyway.

I don't have a nebulizer right now, but I can definitely purchase one at the pharmacy.

This is probably a stupid question, but if I opt to do the Baytril as a nebulizer solution, should I not give it to him orally? (I have been giving it to him orally again since Tuesday because I was afraid of his condition worsening any further).

Is there anything I can use in place of Baytril as a nebulizer treatment that I can use in combination with the oral Baytril treatment, but not overdose him? If so, what can I use, and how much solution to water ratio to place in the tank.

He seems to be doing okay this morning. His breathing improved in the last couple of days, but he is still pretty mushy looking. He has also been drinking water a lot more, which is good. Keeping his fluids up so we can flush this crap out of his system faster. We are still doing warm baths daily to help break up the mucus, and to let him take a nice drink. I have also been sticking him in a small bath in the morning and at night for a few minutes just to offer him a drink. 9/10 times he takes the drink which makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

He doesn't appear to be dehydrated. Maybe just increased thirst from being sick. He isn't drinking TOO much. Just a little bit here and there. I have been watching his urates and poop quality to make sure everything is all good.

I am letting him get lots of rest. I have been tucking him into bed around 8PM every night after his medicine. And letting him sleep in until 8:30AM every morning... That's the latest I can feed him his breakfast before I leave for work.

He sleeps with me in my bed. He has his own bed and blankets section on my bed next to my pillow. He is a comfy spoiled little thing. There is a heating pad underneath his bed so he stays nice and toasty all night. He has his own little pillow, that was actually part of a kitten bed that I took out. It is like the perfect height size for his head. He always seems extremely comfy on his bed.

Hello,

OH he is so precious, I bet he does love his cuddly soft bed.
I mention the tube bulbs being on the back of the tank because when you mount a tube bulb
on the back of a tank & not overhead, refract the UVB light outward & away from your dragon.
The light doesn't have any direction so he misses out on a lot of UVB like that. If you could
possibly mount it directly overhead, even if it isn't any closer, that would really help him out
a lot more.
If you do nebulization treatments with Baytril, you wont need to give it orally per say. It is
better with nebulization because it penetrates through mist which the particles go further into
the lungs to deliver the meds better. They don't have cilia in their lungs so it makes it harder
for them to clear out debris which is why nebulization is so much better than just oral meds.
You can also use Gentamicin, or Amikacin. I had written the amounts wrong here & it was late
& forgot to edit it. If you do use Baytril, you will want to use 10mg of Baytril to 1-2mls of water
or sterile saline solution. The other drugs are given in a higher amount.
That is good he seems to be breathing a little better today. I hope he is feeling a bit more
energetic. Be careful not to bathe too often especially at night, so he doesn't get chilled. At
least he does drink during the bath.

Keep us posted on him!

Tracie

Hey Tracie,

The second round of Baytril failed. I waited a week and tried a round of Tylan after reading that Tylan usually gets the job done when Baytril doesn't. We are on the last day of the dose, but he is not improving. I tried to lean him over to help drain the mucus and he ended up puking. He is okay. I think it is just being on and off antibiotics finally got to his stomach.

I ordered a probiotic from Beautiful Dragons, but its going to take at least a week to get here. Tomorrow I am just going to go to the store and get some non-dairy probiotic yogurt and start trying to get a shot of that into him every day and see if that helps. At this point, it can't hurt.

I just don't know how to get him to dry up the mucus still in his lungs. He won't lean over willingly, so I kind of have to force him to in order to try and get the mucus out. Only for a few seconds. I see a little bit of drainage, but not much. And he really won't tolerate any longer than that. But today, since he puked while I was doing it, I am going to give that a break until the probiotics start to take effect.

Going to take a break with the antibiotics. Clearly they are not helping.

I am going to call the vet Monday morning and see what he thinks. I have been calling him and essentially getting his blessing to continue doing what I am doing with the Baytril, and the same with the Tylan saying it would be the same thing he would have prescribed if I came in. So I am definitely not going in blind. Definitely consulting with my vet. Just don't understand how he is still sick.

Feeling so frustrated.

Okay so I ordered a big dehumidifier on Amazon just now. My thought is maybe if I dry the air to completion, it will help dry out the mucus in his lungs.

And I ordered a nebulizer.

Both will be here tomorrow. Thank you Amazon for your FREE one day delivery.

I am going to try nebulizing him with 4mL of F10SC and 1 liter of water.

I feel like at this point he is resistant to the antibiotics. And I do want to give him a small break on them since his stomach is upset. I may move to replace the 4mL of F10SC with the Tylan 50 and see how that goes.

I gotta do something more than what I am doing. I am determined to get him over this thing!

CruelBenevolence":1mcrdxqc said:

Okay so I ordered a big dehumidifier on Amazon just now. My thought is maybe if I dry the air to completion, it will help dry out the mucus in his lungs.

And I ordered a nebulizer.

Both will be here tomorrow. Thank you Amazon for your FREE one day delivery.

I am going to try nebulizing him with 4mL of F10SC and 1 liter of water.

I feel like at this point he is resistant to the antibiotics. And I do want to give him a small break on them since his stomach is upset. I may move to replace the 4mL of F10SC with the Tylan 50 and see how that goes.

I gotta do something more than what I am doing. I am determined to get him over this thing!

Click to expand...

I've heard and read good things about F10 nebulization.

Worth giving his tank a regular spray with F10sc 4ml diluted in 1 litre of water , let it air dry to kill of any RI germs on surfaces he had contact with so he doesn't reinfect himself … dragons can't spit out flem / mucus (into a tissue or disposeable container like we can ( when I contracted Pneumia 1A in hospital (from a nurse) I was advised to keep a disposeable cup handy and deposit any mucus I coughed up into it rather than swallowing it (reinfecting myself)).

Maybe send the big fleecy off to be steam cleaned and replace with paper toweling while he's still sick , very easy to replace paper toweling each day or a few times per day to avoid there being a surface the germs can colonize to reinfect him continuously.

Can you show us the nebulizer you bought via Amazon , will be handy to others to have the link.

Hello,

I'm sorry to hear that all of the treatments thus far haven't worked very well.
I think getting him started on a nebulizer will knock it out. Many times they have a hard time
clearing flem out of their lungs because they have no cilia to help. Nebulization delivers the
medication more deeply into the lungs than just giving it orally.
Hopefully the dehumidifier will help in combination with the nebulzation treatments. The
probiotics should help out his little tummy, too. Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

I've heard and read good things about F10 nebulization.

Worth giving his tank a regular spray with F10sc 4ml diluted in 1 litre of water , let it air dry to kill of any RI germs on surfaces he had contact with so he doesn't reinfect himself … dragons can't spit out flem / mucus (into a tissue or disposeable container like we can ( when I contracted Pneumia 1A in hospital (from a nurse) I was advised to keep a disposeable cup handy and deposit any mucus I coughed up into it rather than swallowing it (reinfecting myself)).

Maybe send the big fleecy off to be steam cleaned and replace with paper toweling while he's still sick , very easy to replace paper toweling each day or a few times per day to avoid there being a surface the germs can colonize to reinfect him continuously.

Can you show us the nebulizer you bought via Amazon , will be handy to others to have the link.

Click to expand...

Hey,

I bought the following nebulizer that should be arriving today.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071KTG4WR/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And this is the dehumidifier I bought.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GL78U8O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

He is still sleeping right now in his bed. When he wakes up, I will let you know how he is doing today.

Hello,

I'm sorry to hear that all of the treatments thus far haven't worked very well.
I think getting him started on a nebulizer will knock it out. Many times they have a hard time
clearing flem out of their lungs because they have no cilia to help. Nebulization delivers the
medication more deeply into the lungs than just giving it orally.
Hopefully the dehumidifier will help in combination with the nebulzation treatments. The
probiotics should help out his little tummy, too. Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Click to expand...

Hey Tracie,

Yeah, I am hoping this knocks it out of him or at least provides him with some immediate relief. I was kind of hesitant on fogging him out with F10SC, but it has reached a new point where I feel like its necessary. I am hoping it helps. Can't wait until it gets here. My poor baby.

I am going to pick up some non-dairy probiotic yogurt from the store today. There is a brand I usually get for myself from GoodBelly, its a probiotic super shot.

Here are the nutrition facts



Here is the website for the product.

http://goodbelly.com/plus-shot/

I figured an eye dropper full of this stuff after meals should at least help him along until the probiotics I ordered from the Beautiful Dragons website get here. They usually take a week or more sometimes when I order stuff from there. So I wanted to do something now to help him. They sell this in the grocery store, and I usually buy them for myself, but I am currently out, otherwise I would have given it to him last night.

We are going to get through this somehow. I am determined to make him better!

Well, I gave him his first treatment for 30 mins. Not sure if I did it right. I just held the nozzle thing up to his face. Every couple of minutes, he would open his eyes wide and try and scurry away and I had to bring him back to the position to continue the treatment. Not sure if I did it properly, just holding the nozzle up to his face, but he seemed to definitely feel something because he kept trying to scurry away, but only after a few minutes. I was stroking him the whole time so he was very relaxed aside from the times he tried to scurry away. The noise didn't seem to bother him at all. I dunno. He is sleeping now in his bed. I don't see any dramatic improvements, but he doesn't seem any worse.

Will let you know how he is tomorrow.

What others who have had success with nebulization of antibiotics and F10 do is set up a tub that has a lid and some air holes drilled in to allow air to enter and a hole for the nebulizer tube.
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=232783

The sick herp goes in the tub , the lid is attached and fastened to stop the herp from pushing the lid off , the nebulizer charged and it's tube connected to the tub, and the herp stays in the tub with nebulizer on for while (as per vet's instructions) each day and breaths the moist rich in antibiotic and or F10.
The smaller the mist droplets the better as they will penetrate further into the herp's lungs where the mucus is .

What others who have had success with nebulization of antibiotics and F10 do is set up a tub that has a lid and some air holes drilled in to allow air to enter and a hole for the nebulizer tube.
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=232783

The sick herp goes in the tub , the lid is attached and fastened to stop the herp from pushing the lid off , the nebulizer charged and it's tube connected to the tub, and the herp stays in the tub with nebulizer on for while (as per vet's instructions) each day and breaths the moist rich in antibiotic and or F10.
The smaller the mist droplets the better as they will penetrate further into the herp's lungs where the mucus is .

Click to expand...

My dragon has a thing about enclosed spaces. He is very claustrophobic with a touch of PTSD from improper care and being stored in a tiny tubblewear packed like sardines with his brothers and sisters. One time I tried to put him in a smaller tank to explore the "feeding tank" possibility, he literally started freaking out and climbing up the sides of the tank trying to get out and was visibly stressed. I really don't want to stress him out while he is so sick by placing him in a tub. It's not the occasional, let me turn black and huff and puff hate this. It really is a legit panic attack. And he already has issues breathing at the moment.

He didnt have any issues when I put the mask up to his face. I will see if there is a way I can possibly enclose the mask to concentrate the air that way.

I am sure he got SOME of the F10 yesterday through the mist I was aiming at his face. Just not enough of it.

Definitely going to have to think about how to accomplish this without him having a PTSD panic attack.