Brand new baby beardie sick

Hi,

We just purchased 2 baby bearded dragons from the pet store yesterday. I also have another bearded dragon in a separate Vivarium that we have had since Christmas.

I’m new to the beardies but have done quite a bit of research. This little guy is super tiny, the smallest of group at Petco. He didn’t seem right when we bought him, I got him to try and save him. Once we got him home, I noticed him having stability issues. He didn’t seem very cordinated, his head seems too heavy for his body. He often rolls over when climbing or trying to move.

He is able to move fast when he wants food or wants to be left alone. He is hungry... when he goes for a roach/ Cricket/superworm he often misses and tips or falls forward. When I put them in a dish, he will climb in it and eat from there. I gave him a bit of squash baby food mixed with calcium yesterday... he licked it off my finger.

I bathed him yesterday, urate cAme our but no poop. He thrashes all over in the water. I thought that maybe he just wasn’t getting enough food/hydration at the pet store... but now I’m not sure. We use repticarpet but they were in sand at the pet store. I thought that could be an issue too.

I have looked up his behaviors online and on YouTube but have not found much that seems to resemble it. It’s not the shaking that you see with MBD. It’s appears to be balance and coordination.

Should I do the pedialyte soak and Flukers repa-boost Or is it really to late for that?

Anybody have any ideas?

Thanks!

Do you have a video of his movements??

Im not an expert by any means so Ill let the experts chime in but I do work for a vets office and his movements sound like a beardie baby who has MBD. She was still moving around, trying to wild like a baby but her legs didnt want to cooperate. So they were wildly flailing around as she tried to move anywhere. Luckily she was taken in by my doctor, given calcium injections and physical therapy and then adopted by a reptile savy vet tech so shes doing great. Still flail-y and small but full of sass. I have a video of her when she first came in, Ill see if I can find a way to upload from snapchat.

See what the experts here post since they are truly knowledgable though. I have very limited experience but I did want to share with you.

I do have a video but I can’t figure out how to load it here.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I will continue to look up away to add the video on here.

Athena7110":8726gam3 said:

I do have a video but I can’t figure out how to load it here.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I will continue to look up away to add the video on here.

Click to expand...

I think you may have to upload to youtube and then post a link!

Thank you so much! I will try that in a little bit.

I guess I just thought that he was so young that he didn’t have time to develop MBD. I’m so glad I posted on here! Thanks for all your help!

Hello, welcome...sorry your dragon(s) are having such a rough start to life...

First of all, are you housing them together? If so, this is a problem that will only get bigger and bigger as time goes on, as the smaller dragon will become the submissive one in the tank, and it does sound like he already may be suffering from a Calcium Deficiency. So if you house him together with another dragon, this other dragon will dominate him 24/7, hogging all the best UVB spots, all the best temperature spots, etc. This is ALWAYS what happens when 2 Dragons are housed together, one thrives and one is stunted in growth, is malnourished, dehydrated, and develops several different deficiency diseases, such as MBD...and this one sounds like he already is suffering from at least a Calcium Deficiency, probably due to being dominated by his siblings in the tank at the pet shop since he's so small. So you absolutely must separate them immediately if you have them together if you want this little guy to have a chance at all. That's step #1. Bearded Dragons are completely Solitary Reptiles in the wild, coming together only to mate, then immediately separating. That's it. So forcing them to live together rarely ends well for one reason or another, usually the end result is what I described above with the 24/7 domination and stress exerted over the submissive dragon, and this little guy already has a major issue to deal with, and he'll never recover if not in his own tank. They all need their own tanks, that's not optional.

He most likely has not gotten adequate UVB light, which is keeping him from absorbing any of the Calcium he has taken in from his food and supplements. This is what causes 99% of Calcium Deficiencies and the MBD development, not a lack of Calcium in their diet. And this happens because most of the UVB lights sold are not adequate for Bearded Dragons, as they need an extremely strong, long, fluorescent UVB tube inside a long tube fixture with a reflector sitting behind the UVB tube. And this UVB tube must be mounted correctly and within the correct distance from the Dragon's basking spot/platform, and replaced at the correct times. All of this is dependent on exactly what UVB light you are using...So that would be the first thing you need to figure out after you separate them (if they are together), what UVB lights do you have, are they adequate, and do you have them mounted correctly. We can help you with this if you let use know the Brand, Wattage, Strength, and Type of UVB lights you have.

Also, you need either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Probe Thermometer in order to measure their Basking Spot Surface Temperature, along with their Hot Side Air/Ambient Temp and their Cool Side Air/Ambient Temp, these are the 3 temperature zones that make up a Bearded Dragon's Temperature Gradient inside their tank, and being Desert Reptiles they need very specific lighting and temperatures. These are the 2 keys to them growing and being healthy.

Hi,

Thank you for taking the time to reply at Length. Unfortunately, we are housing the two new beardies together. The older one is on a separate tank. I will get a new tank tomorrow. He is so small... his body less than the length of my finger, so It should be fine to house him in 10 gal tank for a short time, correct?

We use the Reptisun 10.0 T8 bulb however it is housed on top of the mesh lid. After reading more, I know we need to House it inside the cage. I’m just not sure bout to go about doing that. I will get the same bulb for the separate tank unless there is a better bulb option?

We do have a digital temp gun. Both beardies tend to bask on the hemp style hammock we have ( I am assuming it’s to get closer to the heat/light). We do have a hide they crawl on it but don’t spend much time there. I have a ceramic heater emitter for at night since they seemed so tiny.

I feed calcium dusted-super worms that are already considered the “small” size by the pet store.... I go through and pick out the tinest ones in the cup, as well small Dubia roaches ( those are the main staple at our home) and a few pinhead crickets. He really has a hard time catching the crickets. I have been giving them fresh collard greens with canned peas and carrots just because it’s what I had on hand. I sprinkle the salad as well. They don’t eat much of that but take a bit when they are going for the feeders. I tried cantaloupe as I read that was high in calcium too.

I have Syringe fed them twice with Watered down squash baby food ( stage 1) with a pinch of calcium mixed in. I did try a bit if the Fluker repti- boost last night and this morning.

He doesn’t seem quite a wobbly today. However, I don’t think he is pooping.... there is white urate in the tank but not poop which concerns me. The other little guy pooped in his carrier on the way home from the pet store... it was normal looking. This is why I’m assuming just the urate is from the sick little guy ( Mushu is his name).


Should I try ordering critical care carnivore blend ?

I was also looking into liquid calcium... but I Am unsure of a good brand. Do I want the kind that you dilute in water? Is there a kind that you give directly to the dragon via syringe? I don’t have a water dish in his tank... I tank them out and mist them as well as do the water droplets on his nose. I was looking into this last night and found a lot of conflicting and scary info.

I did find a vet that would see him but he is not officially an “exotic” vet. I am continuing to search in my area. I found one that is an hour or so away so far.

Again thank you for all your help

Okay, first of all, no vet right now, that could literally be the end of him. As you already nailed, most available vets are "Exotics" Vets, who always seem to do more harm than good, and in just his past month on the forum, 2 young dragons who were perfectly healthy, eating, totally fine and just taken in to "Exotics" Vets for their first "Wellness Checkups" were quite literally killed directly by the Vets. So in this case with your little guy, he certainly cannot take any medications right now, that's not his problem anyway. His issues are husbandry issues, with the lighting, temps, housing together with another dragons, etc., and no Exotics Vet knows anything about husbandry anyway. So I'd hold-off on that right now.

A 10 gallon tank size-wise is fine, but the problem you're going to have, which is always a huge problem, is that it's impossible to get both a Basking Spot Surface Temperature between 105-110 degrees F and then a Cool Side Air/Ambient Temperature of no higher than 80 degrees, as the 10 gallon tanks are far too small to do this in. You're much better off to just go to Walmart and spend $10 on a 60 liter or larger plastic tube for him. They're cheaper and they work really well, and then you can just put your T8 UVB tube fixture right across the tube, no mesh lid to worry about.

***It's extremely important that such a young baby have a Basking Spot/Platform Surface Temperature that is hot enough for him so he can properly digest his live bugs, as once he starts getting adequate UVB light he's going to start eating a ton of live insects every single day. Without a Basking Spot Surface Temperature that is between 105-110 degrees F he will not be able to digest his food, and babies can very easily become impacted due to this.

On the other hand, it is really equally-important that he ALWAYS has a Cool Side of the tank he can go to at ALL TIMES that is no higher than 80 degrees F at any time, this is crucial for him to be able to cool-down whenever he needs to. A 10-gallon tank makes this nearly impossible, the smallest glass tank that I've seen a proper Temperature Gradient be allowed by is a 20-gallon LONG tank (not a regular 20 gallon aquarium, you want it much longer than it is higher for a Dragon, especially if you are using only a T8 strength UVB tube that must be within at least 6" of his Basking Spot/Platform)...

As far as the Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube, yes, if you're using a glass tank with a mesh lid, it absolutely must be strapped to the underside of the mesh lid, which can be done by simply using long zip ties, wire, twine, etc. and just putting it through the mesh and then just putting them around the entire tube fixture, and then just strapping the entire tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid. Again, all T8 UVB tubes must be totally unobstructed, nothing at all between the actual UVB tube and your Dragon, and they must be within at least 6" of your Dragons's basking spot/platform in order to deliver adequate UVB light to him...T8 UVB tubes also must be replaced once every 6 months, as they have a very fast UVB light decay-rate, and at 6 months they are no longer emitting much, if any UVB light.

****If you can afford it, you're much better off buying him a much stronger T5 strength UVB tube and fixture with a reflector inside it. Especially in his condition where he's already suffering from a Calcium Deficiency, he could really use the strong UVB and UVA light from a T5 UVB tube. You would also save money in the long-run, actually in the first 6 months, as the T5 UVB tubes only need to be replaced once every 12 months instead of every 6 months like the T8 tubes do. Remember, it doesn't matter how much calcium he eats, if he doesn't get enough adequate UVB light every day he'll just excrete the calcium in his bowel movements.

The other factor you need to remember is that your goal with his lighting is replicating natural sunlight as closely as possible, and you accomplish this by putting an adequate UVB tube right alongside a bright-white colored Basking Bulb, both lights over the Hot Side of the tank, sharing the top of the Hot Side of the tank, with his main Basking Spot/Platform placed directly underneath both lights, so that he gets both lights at the same time while he basks. So you have to have both lights set up properly over the Hot Side of the tank only over his basking spot/platform, which must be the correct SURFACE temperature between 105-110.

*********BIG ISSUE: PLEASE DO NOT EVERY FEED HIM ANY SIZE OF SUPERWORMS, NOT EVEN THE MICRO SIZE!!!!!! He's way too small and way too weak right now to eat any size of Superworm!!!

Typically the rule is that you shouldn't feed a Bearded Dragon ANY Superworms at all before they are at least 12-14" long, some people even say 16-18" long. The reason is that they cannot properly digest them and their shells, and this may very well be the reason he's passing only urates and no fecal matter right now. Whenever young babies and juveniles (and I'm talking about healthy Dragons) are fed any Superworms and usually also mealworms, they almost always have bowel issues and become impacted...SO IF HE DOESN'T HAVE A BOWEL MOVEMENT SOON YOU NEED TO TRY A WARM BATH FOR 10-15 MINUTES, AND IF THAT DOESN'T DO IT THEN YOU MAY WANT TO GIVE HIM A LITTLE LAXATIVE SLURRY, WHICH IS SIMPLY PRUNE BABY FOOD MIXED WITH A COUPLE SPOONFULS OF PLAIN, RAW, CANNED PUMPKIN AND SOME WATER.

Mealworms have no nutritional value to a Bearded Dragon at all, they are very low in protein, very high in fat, and pretty much all very hard, chitlin shell that Dragons cannot digest properly. So with your little tiny guy you just absolutely cannot feed him any mealworms, no dragons should be fed mealworms as a staple feeder insect (or even a treat in my own opinion), and superworms are a huge no-no!!!!

If you want to feed him an extremely healthy "worm", then you need to order some BSFL/Phoenix Worms, they are all soft-bodied so he can actually eat at least the size mediums (the smalls are completely pointless), probably the size larges, as I've fed only size larges to my month-old babies without problem. They are high in health protein that is non purine-based, unlike crickets and roaches, which is a good idea for him so he's not developing any Gout on top of the Calcium Deficiency, they are extremely low in fat, they contain a ton of water so they will keep him hydrated, and best of all for him, they contain more natural calcium content than any other feeder insect (you still have to dust them, but they naturally have double the amount of calcium that other feeder insects do)...You'd probably have to order them as they are hard to find in pet shops, but I order mine from www.dubiaroaches.com or from www.symtonbsf.com and they are very cheap and quick shipping. I order 1,000 size large from the first place for about $25 shipped, so you could order 100-200 for very little. They would be the best live insect you could feed him...BUT PLEASE, NO SUPERWORMS AT ALL, NOR MEALWORMS!!!!!!

The pinhead crickets are fine for him, all insects that have a shell or a hard exoskeleton must be smaller than the space between his eyes. Sometimes very small babies get overwhelmed by crickets, so only give him 1 cricket at a time, see if he eats it, then give him another one. And always get any crickets that he doesn't eat right away out of his tank, as they do often bite them and cause infections...

As far as the liquid Calcium, the best kind you can order is called "Calcivet", it's exactly what a Certified Reptile Vet would give to you. Liquid calcium is much better absorbed by them as long as they are getting adequate UVB light, but the issue with liquid calcium is that it's very easy to give them too much. I believe the Calcivet actually has a dosing schedule and amount.

Hello,

Okay, I ordered the calcivet and Black solder fly worms. I switched him to his own tank.

*****Is there a certain brand uvb high output bulb I should get ? Are certain ones better than others? ****

I stopped the superworms. Is it safe to feed them the small small Dubia roaches until the Bsfl worms arrive? What about calci- worms? Are they any good?

He tries a couple times for crickets but then gives up. He seems more steady... no more rolling or falling off things, still just has a hard time catching the crickets. I am doing them just one or 2 at a time.


I checked the basking temps in the cage.. 95 is the basking spot and 82 on the cool side. I am planning on getting a better tank this weekend.

Thank you!

A couple of things, first of all, "CalciWorms" are exactly the same thing as the BSFL are, they are called a million different names, which are simply different Brand Names (long story about who originally marketed them). BSFL/Phoenix Worms/NutriGrubs/CalciWorms/ReptiWorms...all the same thing, lol. So if you can find some to give him then yes, go for it. They are typically really expensive, I know Petco sells little cups of 25 for like $4.25, lol.

Yes, you can feed him the Dubia Roaches as long as they are smaller than the space between his eyes, he should like them.

As far as the Brand of UVB tube, you want to either buy a Reptisun 10.0 (NEVER A REPTISUN 5.0, ONLY 10.0) or Arcadia. They are the 2 brands that are the highest quality, they do not emit any harmful light rays, they emit the UVB levels that they say they do, and they have few occurrences of burn-outs.

I'm not sure about the price of the Arcadia 12% T5 UVB tube, it's a bit more expensive, but I do know that you can order a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube from Amazon.com for about $25 shipped, and Amazon.com also sells a 24" T5-rated tube fixture that includes a reflector inside it for about $28 (They have a couple of 24" T5-rated fixtures that are a few dollars cheaper, but they do not include a reflector inside them, nor do they have a space for a reflector, they are just open fixture where the tube is totally exposed and hanging downward, so you have to order a separate, clip-on reflector with them, so you're better off spending a few bucks more and getting the one that includes the reflector).

As far as the crickets go, I'll give you AHBD's method that apparently works, where you put a pinch of calcium or multivitamin powder in a jar or container with a lid, whatever you're dusting them in, then put the crickets in the jar/container, put the lid on tight, then shake them up a bit, so that their still moving but stunned and can't get away. Then drop them right in-front of your dragon and he should be able to get them without having to chase them.

******As for the basking spot surface temperature, it must be up over 100 degrees F, 105 is really the minimum for a baby/juvenile, but the really important factor is that you are actually measuring the Basking Spot SURFACE Temperature, not just the Air/Ambient Temperature of the Hot Side of the tank that is surrounding the Basking Spot. YOU CAN ONLY MEASURE THE SURFACE TEMPERATURE OF THE BASKING SPOT WITH EITHER AN INFRARED TEMPERATURE GUN OR A DIGITAL PROBE THERMOMETER, YOU CANNOT GET IT WITH ANY TYPE OF STICK-ON THERMOMETER. There has to be a Probe that is making contact with the surface of the Basking Platform, right where your dragon lays/sits to bask in order to measure that particular temperature, which is the one that should be between 105-110 degrees F in order for him to be able to digest his food.

My suggestion is either run to any pet shop and spend $9.99 on a Digital Probe Thermometer (ZooMed makes a yellow one that both Petco and PetSmart sell in the Reptile section, and Petco also sells one in the Fish Aquarium section, right where the Air Pumps, Bubble Rocks and Wands, etc. are, it's black in color, Petco or Aqueon brand, and also costs $9.99), or if you are going to order the T5 UVB tube and fixture on Amazon.com, just search for "Reptile Digital Probe Thermometer" and they sell multiple different ones for around $5, actually I think they have a package deal that includes 2 of them for that price. MAKE SURE THAT YOU ALLOW THE PROBE TO SIT ON THE BASKING SPOT FOR AT LEAST 20-30 MINUTES BEFORE YOU READ THE TEMPERATURE, AS THE TEMPERATURE MUST HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO HEAT UP TO THE ACTUAL TEMPERATURE AND HAVE STOPPED RISING)...

****You can also use the Digital Probe Thermometer to measure the Hot and Cool Side Ambient/Air Temperatures, which is a much better idea then relying on the readings of the stick-on thermometers you are using now, as when tested by an Infrared Temperature Gun, most stick-on thermometers are off by between 10-20 degrees. All you have to do is use the little Suction Cup that comes with all Digital Probe Thermometers, and place it on the wire just below the Probe. Then you stick the Suction Cup to the glass of the tank on the Cool Side, either to the front or the side glass on the Cool Side, ABOUT 2" ABOVE THE FLOOR OF THE TANK, and the Probe will just be hanging off of the glass in the air. Allow the Probe to hang there for 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature, and that will be the Cool Side Ambient/Air Temperature, which should be between 75-80 degrees F maximum. Then you can do the same thing on the Hot Side of the tank, stick the Suction Cup to the front or side glass of the tank on the Hot Side of the tank, about 2" above the floor, and allow the Probe to hang there for 20-30 minutes, then read the Hot Side Ambient/Air Temperature, which should be between 88-93 degrees F maximum.