Please help! Sick beardie

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toally

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Hi all,
I've been reading loads of posts about this but nothing has helped so reaching out now! My bearded dragon Claude, has been getting sicker and sicker. It started when we went on holiday and i dont think his sitter looked after him properly, when we came back (end of December) he didnt poop for a week then when he did, what came out was solid as a rock - literally, the size of my little finger and i could snap it. He perked up a bit after that, and about 2 weeks later did another poop, also hard but the hard bit was smaller. Then about 2 weeks later, another one with a very small hard bit - so i thought that was the end of it!
However, since then, he hasn't pooped (at least 3 weeks now). I have been giving him regular baths (every two days at least), he was eating a few wax worms and a tiny amount of veg (worms are not not his constant diet but i'm trying to keep his energy up as recommended by pet shop) but now won't touch them either. His tummy feels soft, but he has no energy, he stays wherever you put him in his viv until you move him again... I've tried prune baby food mixed with oil and honey but he wont eat much, maybe licked off two drops and then the rest stayed on his nose until it dried. I tried pumkin but he wont touch it... I'm REALLY worried now - is there anyway to 'force' them to eat or will that stress him too much?
In terms of living, his hot end is ~31 deg C, cold is 27. He's on reptile carpet but he was on sand back in december, i changed him as soon as he had the hard poop. He is about 11 months old - could he be bruminating? Is it normal not to poop for so so long? It is the lack of energy and movement that is really upsetting me, i feel like something is seriously wrong :(
Really appreciate any advice or tips i havent tried yet...
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Awe, I'm sorry he's not doing well, something is definitely not right...Could you possibly post some photos of Claude and then also of his tank showing how you have his lights set up?

What type of thermometer are you using to take the temperatures inside of his tank? I'm asking this because you only listed 2 temperatures, and usually this indicates that only stick-on thermometers are being used, one on the Cool Side and one on the Hot Side. There are 2 problems with only using stick-on thermometers: #1 is that you have absolutely NO WAY of measure is Basking Spot Surface Temperature, which is really what determines whether or not he can properly digest his food; if his Basking Spot Surface Temperature is too low, he cannot properly digest his food, and this will result in bowel impactions, and if it's too high, it will dehydrate him and make him very tired and sick, and if the Basking Spot Surface Temp is high enough (should never be higher than about 110 degrees F/43 degrees C) it can be fatal. Problem #2 with stick-on thermometers is that they are extremely inaccurate, usually off by between 10-20 degrees in either direction. So you must have either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Thermometer that has a Probe on a Wire, which only cost about $10 at any pet shop. Those are the only 2 ways to measure his Basking Spot Surface Temperature.

BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE: Between 105-110 degrees F (40-43 degrees C) for a Dragon under a year or so old; for a Dragon who is a year or so old between 100-105 degree F (37-40 degrees C).

HOT SIDE AMBIENT/AIR TEMPERATURE: Between 88-93 degrees F (31-34 degrees C)

COOL SIDE AMBIENT/AIR TEMPERATURE: Between 75-80 degrees F (23-26 degrees C)

So that may be the first part of the problem. The next may be the UVB light you are using, or how you have the UVB light mounted, or the age of the UVB light. Dragons need very strong UVB light for at least 13-14 hours every single day. So if you are using a UVB light that is not adequate for a Dragon, or if you have it too far away from his basking spot/platform, or if it's obstructed by anything, this will definitely result in lethargy and a lack of appetite.

So if you can tell us exactly what UVB light you have, meaning the Brand, the Wattage, the Strength (if it's a long tube, meaning either T8 or T5), and then what type of light it is, meaning is it a Compact, a Coil/Spiral, or a long, fluorescent Tube...or possibly you have a Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB), which is an all-in-one bulb that emits all the light and heat he needs. (All of this information will be printed right on the UVB light itself)...

How old is your UVB light? And how far away is your UVB light from his basking spot/platform? Is it sitting on top of the mesh lid to the tank?

Also, what size tank does he have? And what wattage of Basking Bulb does he have? What color of light does his Basking Bulb emit?

What is his normal, daily diet when he is eating? At 11 months old he should still be eating at least 2 live insect feedings every day, and then also get a fresh salad every day. How often do you give him calcium powder? How about a multivitamin powder?

And how long is it now since he last had a bowel movement? Realize that as Dragons get older they do have less bowel movements, often they will go up to 14 days between bowel movements, that's the point with an adult dragon that you know something isn't right, but I don't at all get excited until at least 10 days have gone by. However, if all of his bowel movements have been very hard/dry, this is an indication that he may be dehydrated, or his normal diet may be part of the problem.

The sand most likely did have something to do with the first impaction, and the way you describe him passing a hard bowel movement over the span of days does indicate he was impacted. But as of now, if he hasn't been on sand since December, then he shouldn't still have any sand inside him. So something else is going on, but it doesn't at all sound like "brumation" to me, it sounds like a husbandry problem at this point...
 

toally

New member
Original Poster
Thank you so much! So his Vivarium is 54 inches long, 22 inches tall and 19 inches deep

His lights are fluorescent tubes that run most of the length of the cage but not directly over the basking spot. One is a repti-Glo 2.0, 76cm long, 25 Watts. The other is a repti-glo 10.0, 76cm long, 25 Watts. They were both what the pet shop told us to get. They both sit inside the tank.

The temperature is measured with digital thermometer with a probe, but I had it stuck to the wall near his basking spot. We touched the basking spot and it was about 33 degrees C, so we have upped the temperature to try to get the basking spot up a bit, is that the right thing to do? Basking spot bulb is just normal colour light (not red)

Standard food for him is lots of veg (kale, broccoli, Bok Choi, carrots etc etc very varied) and live insects, crickets, mealworms and some super worms till he got ill when he wouldn’t eat any of them so he has had wax worms for a few weeks now as the pet shop recommended these to stop him losing weight - but he’s gone off them now too. Vitamins he gets multivitamin twice a week and calcium 5 times a week, but again he’s not eating anything at the moment so hasn’t had it for a while.

He hasn’t pooped for at least 20 days if not longer, it really has been a long time. He has steadily got more lethargic over that time.

Is there anything else you need to know? How do I send photos on here?
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
You want the basking surface to be between about 38-42 while providing areas on the other side of the tank that are around 24-28 or so. It's important to measure the surface temps rather than the side of the tank or ambient temps when it comes to adjusting your lights. A higher wattage bulb is probably needed in this case. If you have a fixed top then using a halogen bulb will allow you to hook it to a dimming thermostat or lamp dimmer to fine tune the output once you have the temps close by changing the wattage.

For UVB, the 2.0 bulb isn't likely doing much of anything. The 10.0 bulb is the 30'' T8 model and is OK if you are using a reflector but is really only effective between about 15-20cm. The output drops off quickly beyond that. If the basking area is further away I advise moving to a higher output T5.

I think inadequate heat and UVB exposure is causing ill health and digestion problems so I would adjust this as soon as you can.
 

toally

New member
Original Poster
OK we have ordered the light you recommend (T5) and are increasing the temperature for the basking spot - thank you so much for your help, everything i read previously said temps should be ~32 i have never heard the basking spot should be higher than that. I feel a bit let down by the pet shop as we thought we were doign so well following all their intructions exactly to the letter :(

Can i ask as you clearly are an expert, how do you maintain such a high temp at one end and the gradient to lower at the other? Is your thermostat is the hot or cold end? Ours is in the hot end at the moment and the cool end stays at a good temp but i am thinking now we are increasing the temp at the hot end this might change... or rather than increase the temp the thermostat goes to do you move the bulb closer down to the basking spot? I read an article last night saying put your thermostat in the cool end, and have it maintain 27 degrees there, then move the bulb closer to the basking spot so that stays hot... Is that what you do?

Thank you again :)
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
You have a good size tank, so that's very important to keeping the temperature gradient correct, as a lot of the time people have a small tank that is impossible to get the gradient correct in. Once you get the correct wattage of bright-white colored Basking Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank and get everything worked out, it pretty much will stay the same temperature gradient, unless there is an outside-influence on the tank, like a fan, a drop or raise in the room temperature that is significant, the tank is right near a window with the sun beating in, etc.

Think of it this way: Your goal with his lighting is to replicate natural sunlight as closely as you possibly can OVER THE HOT SIDE OF THE TANK, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HIS BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM IS LOCATED. You accomplish this by putting a long, strong, fluorescent UVB tube that is at least a 10% (10.0) or higher UVB tube, preferably a T5 strength, over the Hot Side of the tank, and RIGHT ALONGSIDE A BRIGHT-WHITE COLORED BASKING BULB, so that both lights are "SHARING" the top of the Hot Side of the tank (T8 tubes are okay as long as they are underneath the mesh lid and within 6" of the basking spot/platform, and replaced every 6 months, but a T5 is much better for him). So basically you want both of these lights off-center over the Hot Side of the tank, with one light closer to the back, one light closer to the front, but both closer to the center of the Hot Side...I say this because you do not want the UVB tube right up against the back or front glass, you want it closer to the center of the Hot Side of the tank.

Then you want to place his main basking spot/platform within the Hot Side of the tank and directly underneath both lights, so that your Dragon will get both lights while basking.

The wattage of the bright-white colored Basking Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank is going to be SOLELY responsible for the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient/Air Temperature, and will of course influence the Cool Side Ambient/Air Temperature on the opposite side of the tank, but for now, concentrate only on the Basking Spot Surface Temp and the Hot Side Ambient/Air Temp.

For a 40 Gallon Breeder Tank you usually can start out with a 100 watt bright-white colored Basking Light, and then go from there, usually a 100 watt will do it with minor adjustments. So once you get both the UVB tube and the Basking Light both set-up sharing the center of the Hot Side of the tank, and you get his basking spot/platform directly underneath both lights on the Hot Side (MAKING SURE THAT THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM IS WITHIN THE CORRECT DISTANCE FROM THE UVB TUBE, EITHER 6" FOR A T8 OR 11" FOR A T5), then allow the lights to stay on for about an hour so that the everything reaches temperature. Then you place your Probe from your Digital Thermometer directly on the basking spot/platform, right on the spot your dragon sits/lays while basking, AND ALLOW THE PROBE TO SIT FOR AT LEAST 20-30 MINUTES SO THAT THE PROBE WILL REACH THE ACTUAL SURFACE TEMPERATURE! This is extremely important and a step that people skip, and obviously the temperature will read as being much lower than it actually is if you don't give the Probe enough time to heat up, so make sure the temperature on the Digital Thermometer is no longer rising before you read it...

Okay, so you've now got your Basking Spot Surface Temperature...Now, if it turns out that it's WAY OFF, like more than 15-20 degrees off in either direction, then you pretty much need to just switch to a higher or lower wattage of bright-white colored basking bulb. However, lets say you get a Basking Spot Surface Temperature of 115 degrees F, and you need it to be within 105-110 degrees F and no higher than 110, as this is the highest Surface Temp that should occur anywhere inside a Dragon Tank. So in this example you need to drop the Basking Spot Surface Temperature about 5 or so degrees. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT MOVING THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM AWAY, OR MAKING IT SHORTER IS NOT AN OPTION, AS IT MUST REMAIN WITHIN THE CORRECT DISTANCE FROM THE UVB TUBE...But you can move the Basking Bulb up, and that's what you have to do. So move the Basking Bulb up away a few inches from the basking spot/platform, let it sit for another 30 minutes or so, and then take the Basking Spot Surface Temperature again, allowing the Probe to sit for 20-30 minutes, or until the temp stops rising. This is how you make minor adjustments to the Basking Spot Surface Temperature. If you son't already have an adjustable stand for the Basking Bulb, i suggest you buy one, they attach to the underside of the tank and you suspend the Basking Bulb inside it's fixture from them above the tank, and they allow you to raise/lower the Basking Bulb. They cost like $20 at any Petco or PetSmart, and well worth the money.

Always start with the Basking Spot Surface Temperature. Once you get it within the correct range, then you next want to measure the Hot Side Ambient/Air Temperature, which usually ends up being within the correct range once you get the Basking Spot Surface Temp correct, or only off by a few degrees. You measure the Hot Side Ambient/Air Temp by using the Suction Cup that came with your Digital Probe Thermometer; just attach the Suction Cup to the wire right below the Probe, and then you're going to stick the Suction Cup to the glass of the Hot Side of the tank, either the front or the side glass, about 2" above the floor for the tank (2" above the floor puts the Probe at Dragon-Head height). Then again allow the Probe to sit for 20-30 minutes, and then read the temperature, which should be between 88-93 degrees f. Again, it should be close, and if it's too hot or too cold within a few degrees, just raise or lower the basking bulb 1-2", this won't throw the Basking Spot Surface Temp off enough to matter, and as long as your close on this temp you're good.

Now comes the Cool Side Ambient/Air Temperature, and I always leave this one for last, because it is sometimes necessary to add a very low wattage, secondary basking bulb in either a dome or a clamp fixture over the Cool Side of the tank, in order to get it up between 75-80 degrees F. KEEP IN MIND THAT YOU NEVER WANT THE COOL SIDE AMBIENT/AIR TEMPERATURE TO GO ABOVE 80 DEGREES, AS YOUR DRAGON MUST ALWAYS HAVE A PLACE TO GO THAT IS CONSIDERABLY COOLER THAN THE HOT SIDE AIR TEMP IS...So if the Hot Side Ambient/Air Temp is between 88-93 degrees, you certainly don't want the Cool Side Air Temp to be 85 degrees, because it would basically be the exact same temperature as the rest of the tank, and he'll have no where to go to cool down. I keep all of my Dragon's Cool Side Ambient Temps under 80 degrees, usually they are around 75-78 degrees, so that there is a definite separation in Air Temps across the tank.

So measure the Cool Side Ambient/Air Temperature the same way you did the Hot Side, attach the Suction Cup to the glass on the Cool Side of the tank, either to the side or the front glass, about 2" above the floor, and wait 20-30 minutes to read the Probe. Again, you're aiming for 75-80 degrees, however, if you get a temp of 70-75 then you're fine, again, this is the side of the tank that he'll go to when he wants to cool down and be out from under the heat, and as long as the Air Temp is at least 70 degrees there is no reason to add a secondary Basking Bulb over the Cool Side at all. 9 times out of 10 the Cool Side Ambient/Air Temp will be lower than the range you're aiming for, and if it is lower than 70 degrees, then the way you control this is by adding a secondary basking bulb over the Cool Side, that will be a very low-wattage bulb.

I build my own wooden enclosure that are usually 4'x3'x2', and I install an adjustable light fixture for basking bulb over each side of the enclosure (I usually use the type of fixtures that they sell at Lowes, Home Depot, or Walmart as "Home Security" Lights), so it's easy enough to throw a low-wattage Indoor Flood Bulb into the fixture over the Cool Side if need-be, but I do also have one very large, glass Exo Terra tank that is about the size of your tank, and it required a secondary basking bulb over the Cool Side, I believe initially the Cool Side Ambient Temperature was around 60 degrees or so with just the main Basking Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank...

Since it's completely frustrating and nearly impossible to adjust or change the main Basking Bulb over the Hot Side in order to get the Cool Side Ambient Temp within the correct range, I simply bought an aluminum clamp lamp at Walmart for $6 (8" clamp fixture), or a deep-dome fixture sitting on top of the mesh over the Cool Side would work fine too...But I didn't bother going to the pet store to buy a Reptile Specialty Basking Bulb, as you have many more options for different wattages if you go to Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. and buy a Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb. I put a 30 watt Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb over the Cool Side and this put the Air Temp at about 78 degrees. Perfect. Remember, down to 70 degrees on the Cool Side is perfect, but you do not want to go much over 80 degrees at all, as he needs a place that is considerably cooler than the Hot Side Air Temp to go at all times.

You can buy all wattages of Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs that fit regular light bulb fixtures, actually Walmart sells more wattages than Lowes does, I have a 15 watt, a 25 watt, some 30 watts, 38 watts, 42 watts, etc. than I bought at Walmart in their Clearance Aisle one day, they were anywhere from $0.50 to $2.00 a piece, so i got them just to have them in case I needed an odd-wattage basking bulb...

So that's the easiest way to do it, don't try to get the entire Temperature Gradient correct by using the main Basking Bulb over the Hot Side, if your Cool Side Ambient Temperature is coming up too low (and sometimes the Cool Side is also very dark), then simply add a very low wattage Indoor Flood Bulb over the Cool Side that will put the Air Temp somewhere between 70-80 degrees.
 
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