Impacted from over eating.

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Hi I am new to beardies and love the 2 I have so this 8s troubling me. I dumped to many crickets in and they devoured them. One of my dragons isn't eating after some violent throwing up. So I gave warm baths as her legs were trembling so badly. Now 2 or 3 days later she has pooped a few times in tub but an hour ago she pooped and there was regular looking round brown poop followed by some fleshy/bloody looking stuff attached. I am hoping it's like mucus of some sort and not her stomach lining. Any help is helpful. Also a vet visit is most likely out of question as I am out of work unexpectedly.
Thanks in advance.
I have picture if someone can tell me how to upload them to forum.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, sorry to hear this ! If it's a prolapse then it's an emergency + needs a certified reptile vet to see about it. In the meantime you can slather honey or a sugar paste on it. That can reduce the swelling + allow it to go back in. Here's how to post pics :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them
 

randyb2859

Member
Original Poster
Hi
Thanks for the advise but even as green as I am I don't think it is what you mentioned as it was kind of attached to the poop. It may well have been the digested crickets I am not sure. I have been giving pumpkin from eye dropper a few times a day and warm baths and it seems ezzy has become more active and not shaking anymore. She (I think) nibbled a peice or two of greens and a meal worm this morning so I am hoping she is going to be ok. She also pooped good as I seen the orange pumpkin in the tank. I thought beardies were a simple pet to care for according to a ( not so smart) pet store clerk. But I got fooled. I am so attached to them both I'd be quite upset if anything ever happened to them! Thanks again and I'll attempt the picture upload.
 

VenusAndSaturn

Sub-Adult Member
Once you post pictures we can also help you with any wrong info that the petstore gave you.
They commonly give life threatening info that can cause death rather quickly sadly.

Depending on her age she shouldn't be getting mealworms at all, and after this it's best she should have less hard to digest foods. Mealworms have a lot of chitin so it makes it quite hard to digest.

Yeah beardies are very expensive pets, and In all honestly I'm finding them more expensive to take care of than my juvenile Tegu.
They have to eat live food, that live food has a semi short life span, they need lights that need replacing on a 6-12 month basis, and then theres vet bills if theres anything wrong.
The food is probably the most expensive.

For my tegu all I have to do so far for the food is just put a bunch of ground meat with organs, and bones in a food bowl with fruit and greens and she'll eat it up if she's awake and hungry.
Once she's older she'll eventually have whole rodents added into her diet.
I'm somewhat happy she hates insects except for dubia roaches and hornworms or she'd be almost as expensive as the beardies to take care of.
 

randyb2859

Member
Original Poster
97223-3684982294.jpg

Thanks for the reply. Here is the picture maybe someone can help me and solve my problem. I have been feeding them both live crickets and greens and a few other veggies that are listed as ok. Kale being main one as advised buy the pet shop. Now I see it as not so good every day. Also they seem to love the meal worms.
I went to a different pet store for my daily cricket run. I asked for 50 and the girl must have given me 300 and as I was attempting to drop a few in from the bag a large amount dumped in. I figured they would get what they wanted and the left overs later. Well they ate them all. Violent vomiting happened a short time later then the shaking legs etc. She seems ok now as far as energy but not eating a lot. I am going now to get a few crickets and see if she eats them. I'll follow up shortly. I also have to get new tube light the pet shop said here use this cool bulb it's uv a and b both. UGH they sold me beauty's and taught me how to kill them! I am so angry with their lack of knowledge. Thanks again
Thanks again.
 

VenusAndSaturn

Sub-Adult Member
I bet they love them, their treat feeders so their bound to love things that aren't good for them.
For 1-4 month old beardies mealworms should not be given, once they get up to 6+ months they can be given 5-10 max every other day or every two days. Possibly once a day, however more spaced out the treats are given the better.

Kale is okay, but it's best to have one or more greens mixed in with it like collard greens, endive, escarole, turnip greens or mustard greens being the most common.

Make sure you get a Reptisun T5 HO 10.0 UVB bulb, 22" or 36" bulbs work well for a 20-50 standard gallon enclosure.

You said you had two right? Are they housed together at all?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
randyb2859":276uzh00 said:
97223-3684982294.jpg
<<< I know you don't want to hear this , BUT IMO considered opinion what ever has caused such a bloody looking poo needs URGENT vet intervention, I can't see if there is a prolapse there or not.

Is the red stuff still attached or was it simply a very bloody stool ?
..... this is very important as it's hard to see in the photo exactly what it is.
If it's a prolapse , this is extremely serious and vet emergency.
If it's a rupture , this is a critically urgent vet emergency.
If it's not related to the over eating episode , but due to a very serious GIT parasite infestation it also needs prompt vet intervention , floats to be done on her stool , and medication to kill the paracites and kill the secondary gut infection caused by them
.

Thanks for the reply. Here is the picture maybe someone can help me and solve my problem. I have been feeding them both live crickets and greens and a few other veggies that are listed as ok. Kale being main one as advised buy the pet shop. Now I see it as not so good every day. Also they seem to love the meal worms.
I went to a different pet store for my daily cricket run. I asked for 50 and the girl must have given me 300 and as I was attempting to drop a few in from the bag a large amount dumped in. I figured they would get what they wanted and the left overs later. Well they ate them all. Violent vomiting happened a short time later then the shaking legs etc. She seems ok now as far as energy but not eating a lot. I am going now to get a few crickets and see if she eats them. I'll follow up shortly. I also have to get new tube light the pet shop said here use this cool bulb it's uv a and b both. UGH they sold me beauty's and taught me how to kill them! I am so angry with their lack of knowledge. Thanks again
Thanks again.
 

randyb2859

Member
Original Poster
Hi thanks again.
Yes they have been together since I got them at pet store.

UPDATE...I CAME HOME WITH SOME CRICKETS and she is eating them as she normally did and chasing them around the cage. I am hoping this is a good sign as the picture has me very nervous.
Thanks again.
Also I will be getting proper lighting and all else needed to keep my babies healthy and happy.
 

VenusAndSaturn

Sub-Adult Member
You'll want to seperate them.

Beardies are not social creatures, in fact you may end up killing both or one of them eventually if they are kept together longer. And the beardie that has a problem currently will be the one to die first most likely. Not trying to be rude but its the cold hard facts.

It may be tomorrow, it may be in a few minutes, it could be a few months, maybe a year or two before they attack each other physically. And even if you see no visible signs of aggression there still is aggression and stress happening between the two, only time they come together in the wild is to one fight competition or two mate.

Which depending on the genders of your beardies they could end up killing each other very soon as they could be two males. And if one is male and the other is female the female may be mated too young and die from becoming egg bound or not having the correct amount of things needed to survive afterwards as less than around 18-24 months is too young to breed.
And if they end up being two females you'll still have them most likely end up killing each other, but may be in a few years rather than a few months.
 

randyb2859

Member
Original Poster
Hi again
The red stuff came off when she took her next forward motion in the tub of warm water.
If what you mentioned about the red we're true wouldn't she be in bad shape not eating lethargic not moving as of now she just ate crickets and looks normal but then again I'm not sure I am sure of this a vet visit is pretty much out of the question as recently my situation has changed I was put out of work with no notice and things are extremely tight right now so I'm really hoping this was just a bad poop as I don't know what to do
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
You absolutely need to separate the dragon immediately. I know you don't want to hear this, but as you admitted, you're very new to Bearded Dragons, and we are not. So I hope you'll be willing to listen and understand why both of your dragons need entirely their own tanks, lighting, etc. and need to be either stacked one on top of the other so that they cannot see each other, or they need to be put in completely different rooms...

If you're not concerned about the inevitable health issues and/or injuries/violence/death that can and always does happen, then you should separate them for no other reason than it's totally and completely unnatural for Bearded Dragons to live together or even spend time together (other than the short amount of time it takes for a male and female to come together to mate and then immediately separate). They are completely SOLITARY reptiles naturally, and if you ever go to the Australian Deserts where they live wildly you will rarely, if ever see more than one Dragon at a time. So when people get them as pets and literally force them to live with one another, they are creating an enormously stressful environment inside that tank. And most owners will say "Oh no, mine aren't stressed out at all, they like each other, they lay on top of one another, they hang-out together, they don't at all act like they are stressed", or any other number of totally superficial observations; the truth is that we have no idea what is going on inside those tanks where we force them to live together unnaturally, and ONLY ONCE WE EVENTUALLY SEE THE NEGATIVE RESULTS OF PUTTING THEM TOGETHER do we realize what had been going on inside that tank.

I don't know what sex your 2 dragons are, but the end results you're going to get are definitely influenced by their sexes. To be very straight forward, if you put a male and a female together, once they are both of age the male will literally breed the female to death, and if the endless breeding and egg-laying doesn't kill her (which it usually does), the sudden and unexpected aggression/attack by the male will (sometimes even the female is the one to suddenly snap, and it usually ends with one good bite to the skull). If you put 2 males together it's most definitely going to end in violence, either by one dragon dead and one severely injured, both severely injured, or both dead. This just does not ever work, not ever, and it ends in a very ugly fashion. And if you put 2 females together (this is the ONLY combination that has ever been successful, in the sense that they typically don't physically kill each other), it usually ends up in the most common result that you get from ANY combination of sexes put together: The stress created by the dominate/submissive dynamic inside the tank ends with one dragon thriving and one dragon dying, usually of starvation/malnutrition.

What does seem to ALWAYS happen with any combination of sexes of Bearded Dragons who are forced to live together in the same tank/enclosure (unless you have a very large room in your house that you can dedicate as their "tank", this may work) is that one dragon immediately takes the role of the dominant dragon of the 2, and the other is the automatically the submissive. We as people may or may not see evidence of this dynamic going on, if you ever see one dragon laying on top of the other, one dragon not even trying to go to the basking spot/platform that is directly underneath the UVB tube and Basking Bulb while the other automatically goes to the best basking spot, one dragon immediately going for the salad and the other holding back, even if you put 2 salads in, etc. then these are all dominant/submissive behaviors. Sometimes people take these behaviors as the 2 dragons "bonding" or "loving each other", and in reality it's just the opposite. And a lot of the time this dominant/submissive dynamic is so subtle that we don't notice it at all until it's too late.

I'd be willing to say that probably 70% or more of dragons that are forced to live in the same tank end up with one dragon growing to be large, healthy, active, and the picture of health (assuming that your husbandry is all adequate, especially your UVB lighting and your temperature gradient inside the tank), while the other dragon is stunted in growth (usually half the size of the other dragon), suffering from severe nutritional deficiencies like a calcium deficiency and MBD, or Vitamin B1 Deficiency, and suffering from the physical disabilities that result from these nutritional deficiencies, such as paralysis, chronic bowel impactions, etc. This is because the dominant dragon has been taking all of the best basking spots inside the tank with the strongest UVB/UVA light, all the best temperature zones, all the best live insects, all the best greens and veggies. These are behaviors that we cannot see happening, and before the owner know it they have one extremely sick dragon that is dying.

Of course the other issue that always seems to happen, and it WILL HAPPEN, whether it happens today, tomorrow, next month, or next year, suddenly one of the dragons just snaps and attacks the other dragon, sometimes it's one big, strong bite that takes off a leg, a foot, a tail, or right to the head/face/skull, and sometimes it's a full-on attack where either the other dragon literally gets ripped apart, or where both dragons literally get ripped apart. I personally have seen more single-bites to the skull that have killed one of the dragons than anything else; the next most prominent case is where you have 2 dragons that are just totally ripped apart from head to tail. And this will happen if you don't separate your dragons (assuming that the submissive dragon doesn't die first), it's simply a matter of when.

So we always like to give people the warning, sometimes they take our advice and separate their dragons immediately into temporary plastic tubs with clamp-lamps holding the basking bulb and the long tube fixture holding the UVB tube put across the top of the tub, until they can afford/have time to go and build/buy a second enclosure. Some people do some more research online and then choose to separate them, some people do a Google Image Search for "2 Bearded Dragons Housed Together" and then immediately separate them, and then there are the 50% or more of people who thank us for our time and then tell us that their 2 dragons are different, they get along just fine, they have been living together for a long time and they're used to each other; sometimes they go as far as telling us that they think separating their dragons would cause them to become depressed or suicidal, lol...either way, they refuse to separate their dragons...And inevitably they come back on the forum at some point in the future, either posting asking for help, that one of their dragon's has lost a lot of weight and is refusing to eat, sleeps all the time, etc. and they don't understand why since their other dragon who is housed together with the sick one is just fine, huge, and thriving, or they post in a frantic emergency, begging for help because they came home and found one of their dragons had been attacked by the other one and is badly bleeding, missing extremities or an eye, has a wound to their head and is acting like they can't see or move, etc. It's like they didn't hear a thing that anyone here said to them, and that makes you feel horrible, like you didn't do a good enough job telling this person what was going to happen if they didn't separate their dragons. It's exactly the same as telling someone who is using a loose substrate in the bottom of their dragon's tank, like calcium sand or crushed walnut shells, those are the 2 most deadly loose substrates by far, though they all can be deadly. People just shrug our advice about removing the loose substrate off, tell us that the loose substrate is not a problem for THEIR dragon, and then at some point in the future they come back on with a severely impacted dragon, or a dragon with an actual bowel obstruction, or a dragon with internal bleeding withing their GI Tract, etc....
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
I totally agree - the two dragons MUST be separately housed as a matter of safety : the larger of the pair is the one I'd move into a new tank (one will larger than the other ==> the larger one is the dominant and it's larger because it takes the lion's share the food , eats first, and "owns" the best basking spot and best sleeping place , while the other will have been permanently stressed by the more vigorous and dominant cage mate).

Of bearded dragon species available overseas (outside Australia) in the hobby, only Rankins do well in small colonies because they are social in the wild (an alpha male will have a harem of females in his territory).

Tickling time bomb .... is the best description of the current situation even if you have a large viv unless the viv is large enough to have multiple hides and multiple feeding stations and basking spots which allow the two dragons to stay out of each others way (might work if it F & F or M & F but will never work with M & M, and if M & F the male will be continuously mate with female which is not good for her).

Is very easy & cheap to set up large totes / tubs (100 - 150L in capacity) as temporary viv ,see viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480 .

Eventually you will need two stacked 4ft x 2ft x 2ft vivs to house the pair adequately.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
randyb2859":3gkpc7o7 said:
Hi thanks again.
Yes they have been together since I got them at pet store.

UPDATE...I CAME HOME WITH SOME CRICKETS and she is eating them as she normally did and chasing them around the cage. I am hoping this is a good sign as the picture has me very nervous.
Thanks again.
Also I will be getting proper lighting and all else needed to keep my babies healthy and happy.

The "bloody" stool (if that's what it was I can see in the photo) is a concern and I strongly advise you have both checked by a vet for GIT paracites so a vet should be asked to do a fecal float at least to check for this.
If one is infected, both are.
It will be necessary to sterilize thoroughly as well as treat for the paracites and secondary bacterial infection.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Let us know how your girl is doing. I hope it isn't a prolapse but anytime there is blood, it is
a serious condition. I highly recommend trying to get a fecal done if at all possible to help
determine whether or not it is parasites, or something else. Internal bleeding would not be
good so this does need to be addressed.
As suggested, you can use some raw honey or manuka honey on the area so it helps with healing.

Tracie
 

randyb2859

Member
Original Poster
Hi All
thanks so much for the input. Well everything looks back to normal. I am not at all sure though as in medically. I feel terriable that I cant address this through a vet right now. Working in the trades and laid off with very little income am at a point where i have to be extremely cautious with finances. I wish I never had gotten the 2 beardies now as i always take care of my pets right down to the fish.
I just fed them crickets and they both ate as I seperate them when I feed them crickets so they each get same amount and other feedings I place 2 dishes. I have a real large set up so they are not cramed up but I am working on a new set up to keep them seperate totally.
Then hopefully i can get them checked or at least a stool sample done to see what is what'
I am so sickened by this right now and feel so bad.
thanks again
 
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