Is something wrong?.

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AshleyANDKeith

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I need advice, me and my husband left our bed room for a total of 15 mins and when we came back I to our room our sons kitten had somehow (we still don't understand how) gotten into our 7 month old Beardies tank. As far as we know she didn't hurt/mess with the beardie just ate it's food and drank it's water. However the beardie had some eco sand in its mouth and we immediately soothed her and gave her a bath and washed it out. She was being active like her normal self in the bath but now she's sluggish when moving and hasn't eaten today. This happened yesterday morning. Also we notice once that she tensed up and her mouth was wide open which we have never seen her do before. I thought maybe she was in shock bc the kitten is much bigger then her and she was trying to hide in her eco sand bedding. But my husband says he has a feeling somethings not quite right. We do not have any local gets that know anything about replies at all. Can anyone give us advice, we are really worried and feel bad like it's our fault. I don't want her to suffer or be in pain.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Sorry to hear that happened to your little baby dragon! Have you secured the tank & room to
where the kitten can't get in now?
In cases like this, even if there isn't any visible signs of trauma, there could be a puncture
wound somewhere that you aren't seeing. Cat's claws are so sharp, like a needle that a lung
could have gotten punctured, or an organ. I would see if you could take her in to see a vet to
see if they can determine anything.
They can stay traumatized for days though, after a close encounter or attack. Is her beard
or tail tip dark?
Is she scared of you & still trying to hide?

Tracie
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
AshleyANDKeith":1fzq8k6k said:
I need advice, me and my husband left our bed room for a total of 15 mins and when we came back I to our room our sons kitten had somehow (we still don't understand how) gotten into our 7 month old Beardies tank. As far as we know she didn't hurt/mess with the beardie just ate it's food and drank it's water. However the beardie had some eco sand in its mouth and we immediately soothed her and gave her a bath and washed it out. She was being active like her normal self in the bath but now she's sluggish when moving and hasn't eaten today. This happened yesterday morning. Also we notice once that she tensed up and her mouth was wide open which we have never seen her do before. I thought maybe she was in shock bc the kitten is much bigger then her and she was trying to hide in her eco sand bedding. But my husband says he has a feeling somethings not quite right. We do not have any local gets that know anything about replies at all. Can anyone give us advice, we are really worried and feel bad like it's our fault. I don't want her to suffer or be in pain.

Regarding ingestion of "ECO SAND"
See
eco_sa_ND.png

This material is going to clump and set in the gastro-intestinal track and result in a severe , even lethal impaction. IS AS BAD A CALCI-SAND / VITA-SAND.
I STRONGLY advise you remove the sand from the viv as a matter of highest priority and replace the sand with either lino, or loose ceramic tiles or absorbant kitchen grade paper towels , even news paper sheets. Who ever suggested Eco-sand to you as good substrate gave very bad advise.

Any sort of sand ingested is a VERY BAD thing for a young dragon , you need to have the dragon checked by a reptile vet to determine (using Xrays) how much sand is in it's gastro - intestinal track and the extent of blockage / impaction and how best to clear this .

On the matter of the cat

.... you need to replace the mesh lid with a solid & heavy MDF or plywood sheet (with holes cut/drilled into it to permit ventilation and to allow the basking globe shine into the viv .
Now the cat has worked out how to get at the dragon , it will be impossible to keep out of it's viv and away from it from now on. You are going to have to be very careful about banishing the cat from any room where the dragon is from now on , else things will end badly for the dragon.

Furthermore , I STRONGLY advise when the vet examines the dragon it's also checked for claw and bite wounds and if any penetrating injuries , no matter how small and minor looking, are found ( it's a matter of urgency to get the dragon onto broad sprectrum antibiotics , the germs on cats fangs and nails are lethal to lizards - time is of the essence to have a chance of saving the dragon from a life threatening systemic infection ) .
The cat will have tortured the dragon ( cat lovers call it play , but it's sadistic torture ) and it has likely sustained internal injuries from be thrown about by mouth and claws , and internal injures and broken bones are the usual result , these need to be checked for.
The vet need to know a cat attacked the dragon.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
KeyBlu422":17h4vrk9 said:
While a vet is a priority, in the meantime, if you suspect the beardy is suffering from impaction and you can get it to eat, try feeding high fiber foods like peeled apple or unsweetened applesauce.

That is not good advise (re peeled apple , high fibre foods) .... if the impaction is above the bowels fibre WILL NOT HELP AT ALL.
Dragons under 12 months old have a hair pin bend in the upper GIT which is a natural bottleneck and easily blocked.

Definitely NO SOLIDS until the dragon can clear any impaction, giving solids ( insect, high fibre stuff ) will exacerbate any blockages as it will sit in the gut and rot there until the blockage is cleared either naturally or by a reptile vet's intervention (there are risks if this is necessary).
Plenty of fluids, some olive oil given orally by needleless syringe ( 0.1ml to 0.4ml per day depending on the body mass of the dragon ), sloppy purees , sloppy baby food ( pumpkin puree is often recommended) , prune juice , apple sauce .... NOTHING SOLID PLEASE .
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I totally agree with Knobbys, you CANNOT feed an impacted Bearded Dragon ANY solid foods due to the structure of their GI Tract, it could likely cause an actual bowel obstruction and kill them.

Instead of feeding an impacted Dragon any solid foods, please rather use an oral syringe to give them Prune Baby Food mixed with 2-3 tablespoons of raw, plain, canned pumpkin and some water or Pedialyte. Do this 2-3 times a day, followed by basking under proper UVB/UVA and then warm baths where they swim around a bit, moving their back legs.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
In addition to NOT feeding the dragon ANY solid foods, please remove all of the Eco Sand from the dragon's tank, they do not naturally live on sand, the Australian Desert is a hard, rocky terrain with little sand, and you need to use only a SOLID substrate that is easy to clean, and that he cannot lick and ingest, as they lick everything constantly. Especially a small baby, even a very small amount of calcium sand, regular sand, crushed walnut shells, wood chips, bark, rodent bedding, etc. can kill him quickly, and this is very likely part of the problem, in addition to any damage the cat did. The other issue with ANY type of loose substrate, and sometimes a bigger issue than impaction, especially when they get older, is that Bearded Dragons are very prone to bacterial and fungal infections of their Respiratory Systems, their eyes, and their skin/scales, and ALL loose substrates are breeding grounds for all types of bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc. as soon as you put fresh in. Respiratory Infections are very, very common in Dragons on loose substrates, as well as serious, fatal fungal infections like Yellow Fungus, which grows internally as well as externally, and is extremely difficult and expensive to even attempt to cure. So please, dump out all of the sand and then completely disinfect the entire tank, including all of the decor and bowls in the tank with very Hot Water and either Bleach, Hibiclens, or white/red wine vinegar, and then just put down clean, dry paper towels and replace them as they get dirty. You can then worry about choosing an appropriate solid substrate that is permanent, like textured tiles, non-adhesive shelf liner, reptile carpet, etc. Please, do not hesitate to do this, as he cannot take ingesting anymore sand right now, it clumps and hardens when it gets wet, and he cannot handle it anymore.

As far as the kitten goes, the dragon must always be kept in a room with a latching door that is always off-limits to any and all kittens/cats, they can never be allowed to be in the same room, as kittens/cats are natural hunters, it's an innate trait that all cats have, and it's not their fault, but they will never stop trying to get at the Dragon. Even allowing the cat to just sit near the Dragon's tank and stare at him will cause extreme stress for him, as he knows there is a predator right outside his tank. They somehow manage to knock lids off of tanks, reach in and pull dragons out so they can torture them to death, knock entire tanks over, etc. So that's why I always suggest choosing a room that has a door that latches and that the cat cannot open, that everyone in the household knows is completely off-limits to the cat. That's really the only way to keep any and all small reptiles safe and stress-free when living in the same house as a kitten/cat.

As far as injuries sustained, Tracie and Knobbys already said it best, you have absolutely no idea if the poor little guy has any internal injuries or bleeding, as all kittens and cats love to "bat around" the prey that they hunt, that's usually how they end-up killing mice, birds, bunnies, etc., they basically torture them for hours until they bleed to death internally. And it's very likely that the kitten took a swipe or two with his claw at the dragon, he could very likely have a puncture wound somewhere, or more commonly internal injuries that only an experienced reptile vet can do imaging studies to find and possibly treat. So getting him to an experienced reptile vet is really the only thing you can do, as there are no home remedies for internal bleeding. He very likely is in "shock" just from the attack, the best thing you can do for that is offer him fluids dropped on his snout several times a day for him to lick off, maybe bump up his tank temps 5-10 degrees, and just keep him quiet and warm, but really only a reptile vet is going to be able to help him if he sustained any internal injuries from the kitten.
 

AshleyANDKeith

New member
Original Poster
Thanks for all of the advice, our beardie is drinking water good and ate a small amount of baby pumpkin food from a syringe. She is still acting sluggish and is staying either on her rock or under her wooden log thing. We have fixed the lid to ensure that if the cat got in the room it can not get back in the tank. The 30 gallon tank is on a very tall dresser and nothing beside it so that is why we are still wondering how the cat got up there to get in because me and my husband have to stand on a stool to reach in her tank. And we have ECO DIRT not ECO SAND that was my mistake, but do we still need to change it?. The pet store we got the beardie from had this in the baby's tank and recommended it to us. Her lights and temps are good. She hasn't tensed up anymore but the closest vet that will see her is hours away and I don't know with snowy wether conditions if we can get her there. Her color is normal, she isn't blackish anywhere except the normal darker color on her belly but it's always been like that color. We haven't offered her any solid foods and we didn't want to take her out of tank if she is scared and stress her out.
 

AshleyANDKeith

New member
Original Poster
Also I don't know if this matters but the cat was on the opposite tank away from the beardie when we came in the room and didn't even seem interested in the beardie or even acknowledge that the beardie was even there. And the cat is completely declawed because our son is only 2 and they play and it's an inside cat and didn't want it to tear up furniture either. The cat is usually never allowed in our bedroom, we went to check on our son who had fell and was crying so we were in a hurry and didn't shut the door like normal.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Yes, please, dump out ALL of the loose substrate immediately, disinfect the tank, and put down paper towels for now, until you can choose a permanent, solid substrate. No loose substrates should be used, especially for a small baby or juvenile, it only takes a very small amount of a loose substrate to cause a very bad impaction/obstruction in such a small baby. I'm sorry that the pet shop gave you horribly bad advice, but it's common unfortunately. Loose substrates are great for a lot of reptiles, especially tropical reptiles who need something to keep the humidity high, or even desert reptiles that actually naturally live on loose substrates. Bearded Dragons do not fall into any of these categories, and we cannot tell you how many young baby dragons have died from being on any type of sand, soil, seeds, crushed walnut shells, bark, wood chips, eco earth, coco husk, clay, etc. So please, please dump that junk out ASAP, before he ingests enough of it to cause a problem. Paper towels are easy, as you can replace them as they get dirty, and as far as a permanent solid substrate, most experience dragon owners and breeders use either the tiles you can buy at any Lowes or Home Depot that stick-down themselves and are textured, which keeps their toenails filed for you and actually hold a bit of heat in, and are very easy to spot clean, or just reptile carpeting or non-adhesive shelf liners. I'm a big tile fan myself, it's so easy to clean...

As far as the kitten/cat goes, the best bit of advice I can give you is again, keep the dragon in a room that has a latching door, and make that room totally off-limits to the cat, keeping the door latched at all times. And better advice is do not try to figure out what the kitten/cat is thinking or try to analyze his behavior, as we cannot tell you how many people have said "It's okay, my cat isn't interested in my dragon's tank at all", and then a month later the dragon has been either killed or injured badly by the cat. They are just simply natural hunters/predators and when the mood hits them then the mood hits them. Your kitten might stay away from the dragon's tank for 2 years straight, showing no interest at all, and the one day you leave the door open is the day that the cat knocks the lid off, reaches in, grabs the dragon, and kills him. That's usually how it goes.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Any updates on your little one today, any improvements?
So your cat/kitten is declawed then? That is good to know, but you are sure that the dragon
has not been bitten at all?
If he/she is still lethargic & not acting right, I do recommend taking him in for a vet visit, just
to be sure everything is ok with.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
 
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