Need advice ASAP!

Hi everyone!
I’ve got a beardie with MBD and neurogenic atrophy who’s immune compromised. She clearly doesn’t feel good and I want to make sure she’s alright.
Her setup:
Almost 6 month old UV(it’s an acardia D3 12% so I’ll replace it at a year)
All temps are correct
Tile for substrate
Eats dandelion and mustard greens with occasional lettuce, dusted daily with calcium w/ D3 and multivitamin(she’s deficient)
Usually eats Dubias, Calci worms, horn worms, wax worms, butter worms, super worms, and mealworms but currently is not being fed protein as an attempt to make her eat salad willingly

My concerns:
I saw a photo of a beardie with ADV who had some body cavity full of fluid, and her stomach looks just like that photo!
One of her joints is so soft is feels like rubber and is swollen. All other bones and joints are 100% solid, but thin(as they’ve been since I got her).
She stopped eating for a few days but now is back on food.

Here’s some photos of her:
Fluid?
The swollen joint
Her other foot
Swollen foot again
In comparison
Her eyes seem fine. No more sunken in than usual.

Help? Thoughts anyone? Is a vet visit in order?

Could she be gravid?? Thoughts anyone?

Hi Cloudy, a dragon can have a puffy belly for the simple reason that their stomach + digestive tract can hold a looootttt of food as we know. It's possible that she's carrying eggs but unless she exhibits behavior like a lot of scratching + being restless then there's no need to suspect it. So it's too soon to be concerned much , her belly doesn't look out of the ordinary.

How is her mobility ? Does she get around well with her legs like that ? It's not a lot of swelling but I do see some.

AHBD":mfhp0e6y said:

Hi Cloudy, a dragon can have a puffy belly for the simple reason that their stomach + digestive tract can hold a looootttt of food as we know. It's possible that she's carrying eggs but unless she exhibits behavior like a lot of scratching + being restless then there's no need to suspect it. So it's too soon to be concerned much , her belly doesn't look out of the ordinary.

How is her mobility ? Does she get around well with her legs like that ? It's not a lot of swelling but I do see some.

Click to expand...

She can't use her legs properly so she can't scratch but she has seemed restless. She doesn't seem to be using that leg any differently than normal, and it looks a bit more swollen in person. It just feels so soft, I'm not sure what to think.

She looks pretty good considering, obvious signs of MBD/calcium deficiency...

How long have you had her? Any idea how old she is?

I would not completely take her off of insect protein in an attempt to get her to eat veggies, as first of all that rarely works anyway, but more importantly, when you're starting treatment for MBD/calcium deficiency they need the nutrition that is provided by live insects. As you said, she does have the typical muscular atrophy associated with severe MBD, as they stop moving and stop using their muscles, and their bodies can also end-up breaking down muscle if they aren't taking any protein in...in any event, the recovery/treatment for MBD does not include stopping all insect protein, that's completely counterproductive to her MBD recovery. She cannot rebuild muscle and regain muscular strength without taking in live insect protein. She is also thin and needs the protein, fat, etc. from the live insects.

That being said, I would highly advise putting her on a live staple feeder that is soft and full of calcium and fluids to keep her hydrated, and the best live feeder insect for the treatment of MBD is by far BSFL/Phoenix Worms. Plus they are lower in purine-based protein than crickets and roaches are, so they are easier on their kidneys. If by chance that joint swelling has any relation to Uric Acid level (I don't at all think it does, it's only one joint and your description of a "rubbery" joint aligns with severe MBD) the BSFL will keep her very well-hydrated while providing her with healthy protein and calcium to start the recovery from MBD.

I also would not feed her any live insects with a hard shell or exoskeleton right now, not until she regains the strength in her back end. Many dragons suffering from severe MBD and muscular atrophy have trouble with bowel movements, some of them can't even have bowel movements unless they are soaking in warm water and have that stimulation. So feeding her insects such as mealworms (the worst thing you could feed her right now as far as live insects go), superworms, etc. is not a good idea any time in the near future. Yet another advantage to putting her on live BSFL, and she can handle size Large. They also still need to be dusted in calcium and a multivitamin as usual, especially since she's being treated for MBD. Again, please do not restrict her live insect protein right now, it's very counterproductive to what you're trying to do. Just because she doesn't like to eat a lot of greens/veggies right now is not at all a good reason to stop feeding her live insect protein. She needs it. But you have to be smart about it.

I'd say keep giving her lots of hydration every day, several times a day, make sure she's under the T5 UVB tube and a bright white basking bulb for at least 13-14 hours a day, feed her the fluid and calcium rich, soft-bodied BSFL every day, dust them 5 times a week in calcium and 3 times a week in a multivitamin (you may want to dust every day in the calcium), be sure that she doesn't have to climb very high to get within the correct distance of her UVB tube (10"), and give her time.

I agree with AHBD, it's way too soon to worry about anything like Adenovirus, their bellies swell up for a host of reasons, and actually her belly looks normal to me, or at the very least not really "bloated", just full. Also they do pancake themselves quite a bit when trying to absorb light, so they can make themselves look quite puffed-up or bloated, but she doesn't look bad in that respect to me at all. As far as eggs go, again it's too soon to worry about that, and as far as her belly goes, it doesn't look as though she's gravid, not yet anyway...But, there's another reason to keep feeding her live insect protein daily...

I've had her 5 months ish now, she's a rescue. I got her with very severe MBD, but she's still recovering. When I got her, all of her bones were like rubber but now it just seems to be the one joint.
She's around 3. I don't know about feeding insects every day because of gout..? But I'll put her back on protein 2-3 times a week, dusted with multivitamin and calcium.
She is a bit thin yes, around 400 grams, she only weighed 325 when I got her.
I'll revoke the superworms and mealworms and order some BSFL now.
She gets 5-7 mls oral fluids every 2-3 days. How much should I give her for every day?
Her lights are on 14 hours and off 10, her UV is 18" from her but she can easily climb to a spot 10" away.

Whew, I'm glad! Thank you guys!!

I didn't necessarily mean live insects every single day, but 2-3 days a week is fine. I just wouldn't take her off them completely, as that's the way I took what you wrote. She definitely needs the nutrition, and I don't think she has Gout at all, as it's presenting like severe MBD. With Gout they typically get swelling (pretty severe swelling too) in multiple extremities, toes, feet, etc. and usually at the joints, because the Uric Acid crystals supersaturate the synovial fluid in the joints, causing the swelling. She's got one swollen area with the typical "rubbery" joints/extremities, so that's not Gout, that's MBD. And if you stay away from the roaches, crickets, etc. that are very high in purine-based protein, and stick to the BSFL (which is a great live feeder insect for Beardies with Gout too, as well as Silkworms), then you're providing her with the healthy protein and nutrition she needs to both put on weight and rebuild her muscles, as well as providing a lot of hydration from the live BSFL too.

As far as the hydration by mouth daily, I've always felt that for water, give them as much daily as they'll drink. You don't want to force it, but I'd be offering her fluids by mouth several times throughout each day, and if she willingly drinks more than you're currently giving her then that's fine, it's not like food, hydration is something that shouldn't be limited except in certain medical conditions/situations, and this isn't one of them. So if you offer her fluids by mouth 4 times a day, and she willingly drinks 3ml each time, that's fine. If it's more then that's fine too.