My beardie needs your help, please!

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Hello, everyone. This is my first post but everyone here seems wonderful. I did a lot of research before getting beardies for my 7 and 8 year old boys. Most of it was right here on this site, so I started off right instead of listening to chain store advice on setup and care. Telonic is NOT doing well, and I need some advice. My little boy is in love with his beardie, and I've grown quite attached myself. Sorry for the length of what follows, but I know to help you need the info.

- Male beardie, juvenile, about 8 months old. Purchased from PetSmart (I know now, bad move - we got our other little guy from a reputable breeder)
- Have him in a split 40gl exoterra tank. There is another tank waiting on the shelf so they both get their own in another month or 2. Both sides have the exact same setup with lights of their own.
- Substrate has always been reptile carpet or paper towels, never anything loose.
- Lighting consists of 125 MVB and a reptisun 10.0 T5 HO
- Basking spot temps between 105 and 112 F
- Cool side temps between 85 and 90 F
- Temps read by digital probe thermometers, one in hot zone and one in cool zone, and also with a temp gun. Temp gun does tend to read 3-5 degrees higher than probes.
- Humidity between 30-40%
- Diet consists of crickets, dubia, and occasional hornworms. All are gutload fed and kept in clean conditions. Veggies a problem, can barely get him to eat any. Have tried multiple methods but easily at less than 5% of his diet. All good stuff - mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, small amounts of bell pepper, green beans, and a dab of strawberrry or blueberry here and there. No lettuce, spinach, or other calcium binding veggies.
- All feeders dusted with mix of reptical with d3 and repashy calcium plus. All veggies sprayed with liquid calcium gluconate supplement.
- Misted daily, bathed 3-4 times per week.
- Hollow log-hide, small food and water dish, and artificial branch are furniture (Have had branch removed for past couple of weeks)

I believe I have him setup very well, right? So here's what's going on with him. Please keep in mind that all along I have continued to research, google, talk to vet, etc...

- Started dragging on belly a bit about 4 weeks ago, but not all the time. I noticed his long left rear toe was swollen and assumed he had hurt it somehow as it is fragile. Called vet and they said probably broken, happens a lot with beardies, unfortunately.
- A week later his dragging had gotten worse, and he seemed to be getting lethargic. Wasn't chasing after food with much vigor but still happy to gobble up if it was close enough to him. Also noticed he was gaping a lot and exhaling. Research led me to have concern for respiratory infection. Made an appt with vet, got me in 3 days later.
- Within that 3 days, poop started getting a little runny and noticed reddish-brown tinge in urate. Took sample on morning of appt and took it with me, now being worried about parasites.
- I was also worried about MBD as his dragging got worse by the day, and I found 2 other toes that looked swollen. Additionally, all of his limbs would shake when he used them to crawl or climb. Not at-rest tremors like videos I have watched, but shaking only when lifting them to move. No twitching in limbs, tail, and no tremors at all when holding him except when he moved his limbs.
- Finally, he had lost a good amount of weight over past week or 2.
- Vet did not do x-rays because she said bone structure seemed strong and appropriate. She immediately said respiratory infection based on symptoms and stringy saliva. No mouth rot or fungus present. Gave me antibiotic to give him for 14 days (today is day 13), and sent stool off for testing. She thought he was just feeling weak and crummy from the infection and said she's call me with results. Weight was 92g.
- 4 days later, results came back with high coccidia levels (I think she said 30 count?) and also some minor pinworms. Appt next day to medicate as they had Ponazuril in stock (was happy it was this instead of sulfate meds based on what I have read).
- In the meantime, I noticed that his left front leg is swollen. Can't imagine trauma as all he had in there was his log hide to climb on as I had taken his other climbing branches out. I raised the floor of his enclosure so he could still be close to lights without having to climb. Temps remained within nominal range by raising MVB slightly.
- Medicated Telonic at appt (and also his next door neighbor, Spike to be safe). Second treatment set for Feb 12th. This was last Friday (6 days ago) and Dr said he should start feeling better by Monday. He actually gained 3g to 95g, so I felt like other meds were helping. She said the swelling in leg could be a few different things, and to watch it for a few days as maybe he did hurt it dragging around and swelling should subside if so. Still no concern from her on MBD when asked again.
- Since then, his dragging has not gotten better (maybe worse, hard to tell). He will NOT go after food, but will eat if I place them right in front of him or hand feed him. Either way, not eating as much. I switched to all dubia since he started to just turn away from crickets. Beard has become black most of the time now. Swelling in his front leg is not worse, but not better. Past 2 days he has eaten less than day before. Bowel movements are daily as always and have gotten a bit more firm but still pretty runny. Seems to be gaping more again. Prefers to hide than to be out, even with temperatures staying what they were before. Have been hydrating by syringe for past 7-10 days with a mix of de-chlorinated water, pedialyte, and liquid calcium in addition to baths and misting to combat dehydration from meds. Finally, I have been giving him acidophilz pro-biotic to help his tummy daily.

Sorry, that was a lot of stuff. Here are my worries and questions that I need your help with:

- He seems to be getting worse not better. Losing appetite and mobility, but still alert with eyes open and head up.
- More research has made me worried about gout? With his swollen limb and couple of swollen toes. Especially since I've switched to almost all dubia and found out yesterday that too much protein makes gout worse, and that dubia do not secrete uric acid, so when eaten they are higher in uric acid, which forms the crystals that make up gout because kidneys can't process correctly.
- Arthritis? A lot of the same symptoms.
- Kidney failure?
- Liver failure?

I am at a loss. His respiratory infection and coccidia call for him to stay warm as part of supportive care treatment. But if he has gout he should be kept cooler as the heat makes gout worse. I do plan on going back to the vet before the 12th, obviously, but can I get some direction from anyone who may have had this experience? Can the coccidia cause the swelling, shaking, and dragging that may go away as the meds do their work? If his kidneys are stressed and he has gout, then I probably shouldn't have continued the antibiotics for his resp infection, right? I keep going in circles at this point. Please help, and thank you for your time!
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
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Poor guy. Sounds like he's having a rough time. Your setup sounds very good so this might just be bad luck. Did the vet test for atadenovirus? If the coccidia count is high I would focus on treating that and discontinue the antibiotics unless a culture was done to determine that there is an infection and identify the cause. The antibiotics can be quite harsh on them, especially in long doses. I would be sure to sanitize everything that comes in contact with poop with an ammonia/water mixture to help prevent re-infection. Is he big enough to do a blood test? That would help figure out how his systems are functioning.
 

dewittfamily

Member
Original Poster
Thank you for the reply. She did not test for that and I'm sure hoping that's not it. Just got a bottle of ammonia yesterday to do that and also bought a steamer last week and have steam cleaned all furniture, dishes, and enclosure a couple of times already. I'm not sure if he's big enough for a blood test. He's about 11in long nose to tail tip and was 95g this time last week. So is that just a blood test for the virus? Do you think the symptoms warrant asking for the test? And with his little buddy Spike on the other side of the wall in their split enclosure, should I be concerned about him getting it too? Sorry, again so many questions. Very disheartening to do so much research, spend so much money, multiple vet visits and to still be in this spot. Thought I was prepared to take care of these little guys properly but it sure seems like I'm not.
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Atadenovirus testing is done with a fecal swab and sent away. It's pretty simple to test for but it's quite contagious so it's worth testing for. The blood test is more to check liver and kidney function. I would ask the vet if they feel he is big enough to safely do a blood draw and if they think the results would provide them with useful data. I think it would be worthwhile to do both for more information but that is my untrained opinion.
 

dewittfamily

Member
Original Poster
I have read your "untrained opinion" all over this site and would go with that over some "trained vets" I've spoken with any day. I feel like the one we are going to knows her stuff fairly well, fortunately. Thanks again - I feel like at least I have a plan for a next step now!
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, sorry your baby is going through this. :( It sounds like gout , any time a beardie has any swelling as well as reluctance to use the limbs that's what comes up. High protein dubia may have high uric acid levels as you suspect, and this passes on to the lizard. He may be slightly dehydrated as well so offer plenty of oral hydration. Syringed water or water + Pedialye as many times a day as possible. A little bit of fruit soy yogurt can get him to possibly take the water if he's reluctant. You might try some black cherry extract/juice and if your vet could write you a scrip for Allopurinll [ human gout meds. ] that may do the trick. Contact one of the mods, here [ Tracie aka Drache613 ] she has the most knowledge on gout symptoms + treatment. Best wishes for a good outcome !
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Awe, he's got a lot going on, and unfortunately I think the vet did him no favors at all...Can you please post some photos of him, showing the swelling in his toes/legs?

Honestly this sounds like Gout to me, it's extremely common in Bearded Dragons, and unfortunately becoming more and more common, in my opinion it's due to the vendors who breed the live feeder insects, specifically the dubia roaches and the crickets. They feed them with food that is very high in purine-based protein, such as dog food, because it's cheap and easy. So the beardies are getting the protein from the dubias and crickets along with the purine-based protein from the gut-load foods, and this causes a rise in their Uric Acid levels, which their kidneys can't handle. So what happens is the Uric Acid levels sky rocket, causing the swelling and horrible pain in the swollen extremities, which is sometimes visible on a plain-film x-ray, but sometimes the Uric Acid Crystals that accumulate in the synovial fluid in their joints are not visible on an x-ray, so I don't suggest that as a diagnostic tool for Gout, a lot of vets rule out Gout as the cause because they see no UA crystals on an x-ray, and it just gets worse and worse. The only definitive way to diagnose Gout is to take a routine blood draw from their tail and run a full blood work-up, including a Uric Acid level. That's what you need to have done ASAP.

Here's the other issue though: The reason that he is getting worse and worse is because of all the other medications he's been put on, his kidneys are already far too stressed from the high Uric Acid levels, and then he was given an antibiotic for a respiratory infection that wasn't confirmed by taking a culture, and I doubt he has...and then he took the Toltrazuril for the Coccidia, but the reason his Coccidia count is so high is because right now his immune system is unable to keep the Coccidia at bay. Most all bearded dragons at any given time will test positive for a low count of Coccidia, but they are perfectly fine and exhibit no symptoms of a parasitic infection because their immune system keeps them in-check, same with pinworms. However, when their kidneys are overwhelmed by the Gout/Uric Acid levels, then the vet starts prescribing all these medications without running any diagnostic tests to confirm the causes, they make the dragon worse and worse and worse, and their bodies can no longer keep the Coccidia, pinworms, etc. at bay. So he doesn't need the Toltrazuril, he needs lots and lots of fluids, unflavored Pedialyte is best by mouth, offer it dripped on his snout several times a day, as you'll need to keep his kidneys flushed out as well as you can. And if you can get the vet to give him subcutaneous fluids, like Lactated Ringers Solution, that would be fantastic for him. Most of the time they will show you how to administer the subcutaneous fluid shots at home, and give you pre-filled syringes to take home...

I highly suggest that you stop all medications, no antibiotics, no antiparasitics, as his kidneys cannot handle them. The goal here, if he does in fact have Gout, is to get his Uric Acid levels down and his hydration and electrolytes up. You do this by giving fluids and by putting them on a daily prescription of human-grade Allopurinol, which can be called into your own pharmacy and compounded into liquid form by your own pharmacist from the human-grade pill (there is no veterinary-grade Allopurinol). It's cheap, a 2-month supply of Allopurinol compounded by your own pharmacy should cost no more than about $25. Once the Uric Acid levels go down the swelling will go down, as will the Coccidia and/or pinworm level. They should also prescribe him a pain medication, as Gout is extremely painful, at least Metacam, or Tramadol.

So I highly suggest stopping all medications, and start pushing fluids immediately. Your husbandry looks good, though your tank temps are a bit high, especially the Cool Side, it's way too high. This is also probably causing some dehydration, which he cannot afford, so please raise up the MVB if you also have a T5 tube, and get that Cool Side Ambient Temperature down to between 75-80 degrees max, and get the Basking Spot Surface Temp down under 110. This is crucial, as he cannot afford to be dehydrated by his tank temps.

I'd be calling your vet immediately and requesting that she do a routine blood draw and run a full blood panel showing his Uric Acid levels, his kidney and liver functions, and his cell counts. My guess is that his Uric Acid will be sky high, indicating Gout, and his white blood cell count will most likely show a high-normal range, indicating that he in fact has no infections at all, but that his body is extremely stressed right now. While you're there having the blood draw done get them to give him subcutaneous fluids, and ask about them showing you how to do it and giving you pre-loaded syringes to take home.

I'd cut the baths back to once a week, they are probably just stressing him out and they aren't hydrating him any at all, he needs to get fluids by mouth several times a day by dripping water and/or Pedialyte on his snout for him to lick off.

If you can find some live Silkworms online to order, I know Amazon.com sells them, as they are difficult to find from insect vendors, Amazon has been the only place to get them lately, they contain a natural enzyme in the inner lining of their intestinal tracts called Serrapeptase, which reduces the swelling and pain from Gout. They are also full of fluid, so they are a great live insect feeder for Beardies with Gout, as are size large BSFL/Phoenix Worms, which you can order from http://www.dubiaroaches.com very cheaply. I recommend switching from crickets and dubias as his main staple feeder insect for now onto the BSFL and then add some Silkworms in as you can get them, as his kidneys can't handle all of the purine-based protein from the roaches and crickets.

Also, both black cherry and tart cherry juice and/or extract also helps with the pain and swelling from Gout, so if you can find either pre-bottled juice at a health food store or you can find the supplement tablets that you can crush and mix with water and give him that a couple of times a day, that can help as well.
 

dewittfamily

Member
Original Poster
This is all super helpful I for, so thank you to everyone! Looks like I can follow all of the advice as nothing conflicts. I already ordered the black cherry juice extract last night after reading other posts on the site - should be here tomorrow. Did not know about the silkworms, so will get those too. I will continue to post updates. Attempting to post some pics as well.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Poor boy, yeah that shaking is not a "tremor" from something like MBD or a Thiamine deficiency, that's shaking from the pain of using his legs/feet. The swelling in different extremities is very indicative of Gout. I hope your vet will agree to do the blood draw and call in the Allopurinol prescription ASAP, he's a big enough boy that the blood draw from his tail vein should be very simple.
 

dewittfamily

Member
Original Poster
Oh - now I am so sad and upset. I didn't realize the poor little guy was in pain. I feel terrible. I have already called to try to get him in tomorrow. I really appreciate your observations and advice. What are your thoughts on atadenovirus? Still worth testing for?
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Based on those photos it does look like gout. The blood test should help reveal that (high uric acid levels) or possibly drawing fluid directly from the swollen areas would show uric acid crystals. Either way, allopurinol, lots of water, and a lower protein diet is the way to go. I don't think the atadenovirus test would hurt either way but it's not high priority like addressing those swollen joints.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
The Adenovirus test is never a "bad" idea, as you never know, but your #1 priority should be the blood work to see the Uric Acid level, because this is presenting exactly like Gout, not Adenovirus.
 

dewittfamily

Member
Original Poster
Hello, all - update on Telonic...

So was able to get to the vet yesterday - they were great and got me in at 6pm. Based on his size and especially with his issues, she did not feel like trying to draw enough blood for testing was a good thing for him. Bit of good news, though is that he did gain another 10g since visit 6 days ago so he is up to 105g now. At any rate, she did an x-ray and saw a few spots that she thought could be uric acid crystals. She used a lancet in that toe and was able to gently squeeze out enough fluid for a slide under the microscope and confirmed the crystals were there, definitely gout as several of you suggested.

She prescribed pain med and sent home with me, and wanted to consult with an expert she knows on dosages for the gout meds to make sure she got it right. Said this dr knows his stuff and is best in our state. She did say it would be allopurinol just as has been suggested here. I talked to her about reducing protein and increasing veggies, along with the black cherry extract and she agreed that was the right way to go.

He seems to be feeling a bit worse today as he is just laying on his log vs. moving around at all, and eyes look a little more tired, not wide open. However, he did eat a gigantic hornworm on his own, but nothing else. I will be doing a veggie slurry by syringe to start getting his veggie intake up a bit. He tolerates the syringe pretty well - he's a good little guy. He is still pooping about once a day and it is getting more firm instead of watery (more back to normal). I am giving him plenty of oral fluids as well by syringe. I see a lot of threads where things go south quick and then the little beardie is gone. Hoping we end up being one of the good stories. Either way, thank you again for your responses and advice. Myself, our beardie, and my little boy truly appreciate it! :D
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Good that the vet is on board with a definite diagnosis. The vet can call in to a human pharmavy for the allopurinol, it should not be too expensive at all.

And yea, poor Telonic would be a bit stressed + sore after a long vet visit + having his toe cut. He doesn't understand. So good that he ate a big hornworm though, lots of hydration in that meal :)
 
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