Advice for increasing chances of survival?

Hi everyone. This is my first post here; I've been constantly referencing this forum for advice though. Unfortunate that my first post has to be under dire circumstances. Apologies in advance for the storytime below:

I have an approximately 8 month old beardie named Jub Jub who's not doing so hot. About a month ago while I was out of town for the holidays, I boarded him with my vet, who took the opportunity to do a fecal exam on him and diagnosed him with pinworms and coccidia (Albon and Ivermectin, paired with Benebac to get his good flora back up). He was started on treatment while I was still away, and I finished it up at home a couple weeks ago. His appetite was lowered, but I expected that because of the meds. However, last weekend he started losing interest in eating as much and began spending a lot of time closing his eyes while in his terrarium. I thought he might be getting picky and going off dubia (his regular staple), so I ordered some phoenix worms and small hornworms and let it go for a few days in the meantime. By let it go, I mean frantically checking husbandry (temps fine, uvb light only about 6.5 months old) and low key freaking out. He did continue to eat a small amount, and I made sure to offer him water via pipette and every other day soaks. Poops happened every couple days, though small. Still closing his eyes a lot, but keeping his head and front arms up while basking and more alert when I'd take him out of his terrarium. When the worms arrived on Thursday, he actually did eat 3 hornworms and 5-6 phoenix worms on his own, though it took him a while to decide it was worth the effort of getting off his hammock to eat. I took that as a tentatively good sign.

Friday when I went to feed him before leaving for work, he wasn't even lifting his head or really opening his eyes much though his basking light had been on for a couple hours, so I called the vet. She saw him yesterday and was able to get a fecal smear and see that his parasite levels were still quite high. Due to his "depressed" condition (her word), she was hesitant to start parasite meds again. She drew a little blood to do labwork and sent me home with some Cipro, having dosed him already at the office along with a subcutaneous fluid/vitamin injection. I'm currently waiting for the lab results, expected Monday.

After we got home, Jub Jub vomited what looked like some large chunks of partially digested dubia, which makes me think that perhaps they were a little too big for him. I recently upgraded the size, and maybe went too big. I called the vet back to let her know in case that changed his care, but she said it might have been the Cipro and to see how he reacts after I dose him next. He then had an extremely runny poo with almost no green portion; he'd had a runny poo in the morning too, and nothing else to eat in the day so I guess that wasn't too surprising. After vomiting, he actually seemed to perk up a bit (not 100% of course), but I'm hanging on to hope that it helped him feel a bit better. He took some water from the pipette and got another soak.

Obviously I am really nervous and scared that he's not going to last the weekend, but in the meantime I want to try to make sure he's as comfortable as possible and that I'm not actually hurting him with all my fussing. I went out and bought some care supplies this morning: Pedialyte, organic squash and chicken baby foods, restocked on fresh turnip/mustard greens. He's still reacting to sounds and visual stimuli when his eyes are open, and moving around his terrarium occasionally, also keeping his head up. He took some water and benebac willingly this morning, as well as a tiny bit of the baby foods, but not enough for me to feel comfortable that he got any meaningful nutrition. It's been probably close to 48 hours since he ate the worms. I haven't dosed the Cipro yet today. I know that keeping him warm will help him fight his ailments better, so I only want to disrupt that if I'm doing something that will help him.

So finally my questions are: how often should I be making sure he gets hydration given that he's not really eating (he had a total of 3 runny poos yesterday, though none today)? Should I resort to force feeding him baby food yet?

Oh god, im so sorry your vet did such a thing to your dragon. Albon I believe is used regularly but I remember a post about ivermectin and it almost killed someones dragon.

https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=238668

This should help a bit, Im not too good with the exact meds and everything like more experienced people but that post should be helpful.

http://www.anapsid.org/vets/#vetlist
Here are a list of actual reptile vets that you can get him to.

I'm not entirely sure whether you should or not force feed yet, I'd be careful which baby food you choose. I know theres this stuff called critical care however I've never looked at it so I dont know whether its a slurry that you feed by syringe or not.

Setup wise I'd just make sure everythings clean and easy to get to, paper towels as substrate, a flat basking spot. You can use tiles to make a small flat "stair case" he can get up to easily. Make sure the temps are all correct,
basking spot 100-110.
Warm side (area around basking spot) 90-95.
Cool side 75-85.
Night time temps probably should stay higher, around 80. You can use a ceramic CHE to help with this as it doesnt disturb their sleep like colored lights.

Make sure you have a good UVB tube, reptisun t5 ho 10.0 bulb with a reflective fixture will work.

Yeah, so my vet does specialize in reptiles; I just checked and both the vets I saw at the office I go to are on that list. :? After giving the Ivermectin I read that it can cause problems, but I'm not so sure it is the cause of this, as it was quite a while after his last dose that this started happening, but you know... I guess I can't rule it out.

If he pulls through and the vet gives him the clear to start parasite treatment again, I'll ask if they can prescribe something that's not Ivermectin.

I checked to make sure the baby food only has a few ingredients, is organic and has no weird additives so I hope it's okay. Either way he hasn't really had enough of it to make a difference at this point yet.

In regard to the setup, I'm pretty sure I've got it covered based on your recommendations. I've been using paper towels as substrate exclusively since the parasite diagnosis, and been (probably obsessively) checking temps since he started acting like this. He really likes basking on this resin branch that suction cups to the back of the terrarium, so I've been keeping it sanitized for him. After I got the parasite diagnosis I had taken it out to really give it a good scrub and sanitization and he got really agitated that it was missing for too long, haha. He does have a rock to bask on too though.

Everything's in optimal range according to the probe thermometer I've been using. I've had the CHE for a while but only just set it up last night after the vet mentioned keeping temps up higher at night to help him (usually I just let his terrarium drop to ambient temps in the evening since I live in California and it doesn't get lower than 68-70 inside). UVB is a Reptisun T5HO in a ZooMed reflective fixture.

Hello,

I am sorry that happened to your boy!
If he had low levels of parasites, they really didn't need to be treated. It made him worse
for no reason. He is very lucky that he is still alive because Ivermectin is not recommended
for use in reptiles really. It only is supposed to be used for livestock.
Personally, I wouldn't even give him the Cipro, either as well as anymore medications, he has
had enough.
You can try to detox him a bit by using some parsley, cilantro, kale & mix that with water or a
juice like cranberry to flush his system out. He needs to get the meds out of his system so he
can start feeling better.
Has his beard been black at all?
The UVB you have is fine for him. How far away is it from him?
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Well, he's still kicking for now. After my last post he had a few bowel movements that were mostly liquid. Despite giving oral fluids, soaks, and managing to coax him into eating another .35ml of squash baby food, I feared the dehydration would complicate things most of all. A few hours ago I went ahead and called around all the emergency vets in my area to find one that would be comfortable enough to administer subQ fluids for such a small guy (let alone a lizard), as I was getting really concerned about his dehydration. The visit took way longer than I was hoping, but I think it was worth it because he looks so much better now, or at least plumper.

As I was writing this, he actually woke up and had another watery bowel movement (I love cleaning his terrarium 4 times a day :roll: ), but otherwise seems in better spirits; hope it lasts.

He had a black beard and dark tail after Friday's vet visit, but since being home he's pretty much gone back to usual colors. If anything I'm a little concerned that he's getting too pale around his head, but I'm not sure if that's just me being paranoid about the situation. Even through today's trip to the e-vet he's been stress line/black beard free, but I'm not even sure if that's a good thing.

Hey there. I’m so sorry you’re having to go through this. You’re doing all the right things (many people refuse to take their sick beardie to a vet, even when doing so could result in a diagnosis and turn an illness around). Not long ago I adopted a bearded dragon that had extremely runny/abnormal bowel movements, so I took her to the vet, where a fecal exam revealed very high levels of both coccidia and pinworms. It required two rounds of medication, but after that she was in the clear. It can get worse before it gets better, especially if the beardie is given a medication with harsh side effects. I don’t know any reptile vets that would be comfortable administering Ivermectin to a bearded dragon, as I don’t think it was ever intended to be used on reptiles and there are much gentler medications available (if I remember correctly Panacuril was one of the meds given to my beardie and she didn’t experience appetite loss, lethargy, etc. while on it). Your beardie may be feeling extremely depleted from the strong meds, so even if she’s recovered from the coccidia and pinworms she may now be in recovery mode from the Ivermectin. If your beardie is willing to eat on her own then hornworms and BSFL soaked briefly in water are great for hydration. You can also mix your own slurries using veggies that are easy to purée (like butternut squash). Critical Care is available in many pet stores, and the formula covers a lot of bases in terms of nutrition for an ill reptile. You’re giving her all the care a sick pet could ask for, and having had a beardie with your exact diagnosis, I know how stressful this situation can be. But I also know that this situation can have a very positive outcome, as evidenced by the bearded dragon currently leaping around my bedroom like a caffeinated lemur.

Thanks. I really hope that I get to be one of the success stories. I just checked on him again and he's awake and moved off his usual branch basking spot, perhaps looking improved from yesterday? I think his head color looks darker (more normal), hope I am not imagining it. I put out some turnip and mustard greens for him, maybe he'll take some interest.

I actually overnighted some Reptaboost, which I'll see if he has any interest in once it gets here (thanks Amazon). If he's still resistant to food, the e-vet told me that I could come in today for more subcutaneous fluid and he'd only charge me for the procedure and no exam fee. After $400 in vet visits over the last couple days this is extremely welcome news...

Wow, this is another post where a vet gave 100% horrible treatment [ Ivermevtin is one of the worst things !! ] and nearly killed your dragon. So a vet can do far more harm than good at times. Keep up the hydration [ water + Pedialyte ] several times a day + the feedings, keep him warm + stress free and keep him away from that original vet . That vet should be refunding you every penny. And I agree with Drache, no more meds. at all, this poor dragon has been given toxic doses/mixtures. If she's taking oral hudration then skip the stressful visit for sub=Q fluds as well.

BTW, how was poor Jub Jub before you boarded him ?

Frankly, he was 100% fine before boarding. Eating like a horse, both veggies and roaches, healthy poos every other day, almost constant shedding. He now hasn't had a shed in over a month and has dropped about 6 grams in as much time.

He's *sort of* taking oral hydration, but not enough to keep up with 3-4 mostly fluid poos a day. I took him into the e-vet last night because I weighed him and he dropped a full 6 grams from the night before :shock: After fluids he was looking much plumper, and now this afternoon after absorbing most of it he's +1 gram from Friday. I got the Reptaboost and was able to squeeze maybe about .3 to .4 ml into the sides of his mouth, which he licked most of it up. He's still got enough energy to resist my attempts to nourish him, so I'm hoping that's a good sign. I'll probably try to feed him the rest of the recommended dosage in an hour or two.

I'm continuing to keep an eye on how he looks/ his weight. If he gets as low as yesterday (no poos yet though, knock on wood) I'll probably opt to take him in for the subQ again. Frankly, I'll take him every day if it will help him pull through.

That makes me angry and this is not even my pet. I guess me ranting won't help you so I apologize. All of this mess was caused by that vet. If you feel like filing a complaint or seeing about reimbursement I strongly urge you to do so. Keep other poor owners from going through what you + your poor dragon are going through. BTW, did the vet consult you before this " treatment ".?

If he needs the sub q fluids then you should do what you feel. It seems like he's feeling a little better + 6 grams is not much weight loss for an 8 month old. Best wishes, please update through this ordeal !

The vet didn't consult me before starting the meds, but frankly I wouldn't have objected if he had. This is my first dragon, and I didn't know about the dangers of Ivermectin until after I'd already dosed Jub Jub with the first round. I actually didn't give the second Ivermectin dose he wanted me to because I read about it before I was due to give it again. I gave the Albon; I know it can treat both coccidia and pinworms though I've heard it can also be pretty harsh.

I was able to get .6 or .7 ml more of the ReptaBoost in him this afternoon, though he wasn't very impressed with my efforts. It's hard to tell how much I succeeded in getting into him when he's shaking his head around and getting it everywhere. He got a little perkier after that and has been doing a little more moving around than he has the last couple days. He actually hung out on the cool side of this tank for a little bit, but now he's back taking periodic naps in the basking area.

As for his weight, he's actually a petite little guy. I've read that's normal for translucent beardies, which he is. He wasn't the strongest eater when he was really little and didn't become a voracious eater until I started getting him dubia, maybe after I'd had him for a month and a half. He was 63g when I brought him in for boarding, and fluctuated +/- 3g that over the 6 days he was in their care, which isn't alarming. I weighed him on Friday with my new digital scale after he'd been low appetite for some days, and he was down to 56g. When I decided to get him to the e-vet last night, he was an additional 6g down (to 50g) over the course of 1 day. It was enough to make me very alarmed, since he's so little already.

On the plus side, no watery poos so far today!

Overall I'm feeling a bit more optimistic about his prognosis now. I think I'll probably also overnight the Oxbow Critical Care; couldn't find it anywhere locally.

Hello,

I am happy to hear he is hanging in there then & not doing too badly after all of this! Poor
guy, he has been through the mill for sure!
The vet should have known not to administer Ivermectin to your dragon, it just really isn't
recommended. It is often fatal so do keep a good eye on him & keeping him hydrated will
definitely help a lot for him!
Is his beard normal colored? He will be tired & sleepy for awhile, due to all of the medication
in his system throwing him off right now.
The critical care isn't usually easily found in stores but you can find it online. Use it with the
organic baby food, too for it to be more palatable.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

His beard is normal color, it's only been darkening when I try to make him eat something. I'm still scared he could pass away without getting a dark beard/tail so I can't help checking to make sure he's breathing every 5 minutes :-? I don't know if it's possible for beardies to pass without showing a black beard, or while holding their bodies up. He has been dozing a lot the last couple hours, though I kept him out past his bedtime last night, so that could be contributing? I don't know.

Do you really think he could still be affected directly from the anti-parasitic meds? The last time he had a dose of Albon was 1/8, Ivermectin was 1/4. He was acting somewhat normally between then and last weekend, if just a slightly reduced appetite. He did get a dose of Cipro yesterday afternoon, but he was acting like this before Cipro was even in the picture.

Hello,

Usually if they are distressed & or in pain they will have a black beard. They can pass
away without a trace of a black beard, yes.
It has been some times since he has been on those meds. They do have a unique system
& substances stay in their systems longer than they do in mammals. You are doing all you
can to ensure he stays hydrated.
Are you still giving probiotics?
Make sure he gets his sleep, because that can affect his recovery also.
I am not really sure he needs the Cipro, either. I think his system needs a break from the
meds. What did the vet give the Cipro for?

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

I believe the Cipro was prescribed just in case it would improve his situation in the meantime. I won't have any info on the results of his blood draw until tomorrow (hopefully first thing in the morning, it will be agonizing to wait). So yeah, I'm not convinced he really needs it either in the absence of a diagnosis. I'm still not sure if I'll give the Cipro tonight. I don't want to miss it if it's actually treating him, but I don't want to give it if it's not helping. Plus, I don't want to further upset his gut flora unnecessarily. I have been giving him Benebac every day, he seems to like it.