1 week without eating

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Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Hi so about 3 weeks ago my 1 ish (possibly slightly younger) year old decided she didn't want her staple calci worms anymore so I moved on to locusts which seemed to keep her eating for another couple of weeks but then she started refusing them. Today I tried wax worms out of desperation but still she wasn't having it which is seriously unusual as she gobbled them up like candy usually. She's not touched her rocket or curly kale either and even seems reluctant to lick things and she licks everything usually. Her poop is much smaller than usual and possibly a little more runny but I figure its less because she's not eating. She actually seems ok in herself except she wont stop glass surfing or more appropriately wood surfing down her cool end. She comes out and runs around in the day and is ok with snuggles at night it's just the lack of food and therefore water is worrying me. I'm going to get some scales tomorro and weigh her but how much is a 14 inch 1 year old meant to weigh? I've added a couple of pics so you can see if she looks ok. Thanks in advance
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Hello. Has your beardie pooped recently? if not, your beardie may be impacted. Try feeding her medium to large crickets, as crickets are the most vet recommended insect to feed a beardie. Give her baths a couple times a week. The water stimulates them so they are more likely to poop. If your bearded dragon starts, or continues to lose weight, I would recommend taking her to a vet. If it is impaction then I would also try rubbing her stomach gently. Either way, I would definitely take her to the vet.
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
HI thanks Frank she is pooping still just less or rather smaller amounts. Has only ever pooped in the bath once though. She never does what I expect
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I don't think it has anything to do with impaction at all, she's not on a loose substrate and she's still passing bowel movements, even "runny" bowel movements, so likely not impaction/obstruction related at all. Realize that less-food-in equals less-bowel movements-out...

Whenever this happens people tend to go to "it's probably brumation", but to me that's always a cop-out, and a dangerous cop-out at that. She's a little over a year old, so it very well could be a winter slow-down period, depending on where you live, this does happen and it's natural, but it shouldn't last this long a period. If it was even a partial-brumation she would be trying to stay out of light pretty much at all times, and sleeping.

Whenever this happens there are a few husbandry-related things that in my own opinion you absolutely must check to be sure they aren't causing her appetite and/or energy levels to decline, because a lessening appetite and increasing lethargy are the very first signs/symptoms of a lot of serious health and/or husbandry issues, the most common one being a Calcium Deficiency, a Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency, and of course some type of parasite, though you always want to check your husbandry first before rushing her to the vet and stressing her out.

I see you have a large, wooden enclosure, so it should hold heat very, very well and be pretty consistent in keeping the 3 temperature zones consistent, but I would first measure all 3 temperature zones with your Digital Probe Thermometer or Infrared Temp Gun, whichever you use, to confirm that they are all within the correct ranges:

BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE: Between 100-105 degrees F maximum...

HOT SIDE AMBIENT (air) TEMPERATURE: Between 88-93 degrees F maximum...

COOL SIDE AMBIENT (air) TEMPERATURE: Between 75-80 degrees F maximum...

You want to make sure that if you're using a Digital Probe Thermometer that you allow the Probe to sit on each spot for at least 20-30 minutes before reading the temps...

Next, and probably the most common cause of this is inadequate or improperly mounted UVB and/or UVA light...So what UVB tube/light are you using? How old is it? How far away from her Basking spot/Platform is the UVB tube/light? Is the UVB light obstructed by anything?
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Thanks Ellen I got a new thermostat on Thursday the evo lite so checked all the temps pretty recently with both that and an old digi thermometer I do seem to struggle to get the cold side right while maintaining the basking spot which is probably a little warmer than ideal as a result. She did start getting lethargic last month so I upped the light times and she livened straight up. I guess the uv is about 6 months old so coming towards replacing time and maybe I wasn't doing enough dusting with the locusts. She also doesn't seem to bask much since I replaced the basking light with a heat emitter (gets way too cold at night without one) so maybe I need to get another light fitting. I managed to get some wax worms down her earlier on the bright side. That's what always happens I post a problem and then she knows it's time to go back to normal again.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
2 major issues right away: The first one is that a Bearded Dragon absolutely must have a bright-white basking light, you cannot use a CHE as a "basking" light, as they are desert reptiles that in captivity need at least 13-14 hours of bright white basking light and UVB light every single day. So the fact that you took away any basking light from her is causing severe issues. "Basking" is literally an action related to "light", not heat. And in addition, you should never need to use a CHE during the day; if her temperature zones are not getting within the correct ranges this means that you need a higher wattage of bright-white colored basking bulb. You can use regular, Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs, like the kind you buy at Lowes, Tractor Supply, Home Depot, etc. (just make sure that you don't accidently buy an LED Indoor Flood Bulb, they don't emit any heat, it must be an old-school Halogen). You don't need to buy an expensive, "Reptile-Specialty" Basking Bulb, it only has to be bright-white in color (yellow is fine, some Indoor Flood Bulbs look yellow, that's not a problem), and it needs to be the correct wattage to get his Basking Spot Surface Temp between 100-105 degrees F, his Hot Side Ambient (air) Temp between 88-93 degrees F, and his Cool Side Ambient )air) Temp between 75-80 degrees.

Sometimes, depending on the size of your tank or enclosure, you will need to add a SECOND, MUCH LOWER WATTAGE, BRIGHT-WHITE COLORED BASKING BULB OVER THE COOL SIDE!!! I have 2 large, wooden enclosures and still use one very large, glass Exo Terra Tank, and with that large, glass Exo Terra tank I have a 100 watt Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb as the main basking bulb over the Hot Side of the tank that is right alongside the long UVb tube, both share the center of the Hot Side of the tank, with his basking spot/platform directly underneath both lights so he gets both while basking (replicating natural sunlight), and his Basking Spot Surface Temp is typically around 104 degrees F and his Hot Side Ambient (air) Temp is usually around 91 degrees. But without a Second, much lower wattage basking bulb over the Cool Side of the tank, I couldn't get the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temp higher than about 50 degrees. So I bought a $6 aluminum-reflector Clamp Lamp at my local Walmart (in the aisle with all the extension cords and the wiring/electrical stuff) and bought a 40 watt Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb at Lowes, and BAM! the Cool Side Ambient Temp is now right around 75 degrees at all times.

So I'd ditch the CHE and start with a 100 watt Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb or bright-white colored Basking Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank, and only concentrate on getting the Basking Spot Surface Temp and the Hot Side Ambient Temp correct. Don't worry about the Cool Side Ambient at that point. Once you get the 2 temp zones within the Hot Side of the tank within the correct ranges, then take the Cool Side Ambient Temp with your same Digital Probe, and if it's like 50 degrees, then you need to add a 30-40 watt basking bulb over the cool Side of the tank. Problem solved. This is extremely important, without any basking light a Bearded Dragon or any other Desert Reptile literally cannot "Bask" at all, and this is devastating to them.

Secondly, what brand/model/wattage of UVb tube do you have? I'm assuming it's a T8 strength UVb tube, but which one?
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
I should say I only got the che because at night she would be far too cold without anything and I didn't want to let that happen. I have put a normal bedside light on a timer focussing as well as I could on her basking spot to try and simulate a basking light when coupled with the che as well as possible. As my hours aren't always the same it's difficult to do what I wanted which was to switch the che for a bulb every morning and back every night so this seemed like the lesser evil. She actually initially picked up with the che but that was because the pet shop gave me a basking bulb and thermostat with a wattage far too low for her needs however she then started basking at the uv tube presumably because this became the brightest light source. Since putting the nightlight on the basking spot she has started edging closer again. I guess I'm just not very good with handyman stuff so the idea of trying to add extra light fittings is a little worrying but I'm sure I can find someone capable. Sadly I'm unsure of the uv tube I've only had the set up.6 months and it came with it but I was assured it'd be good for 8 months I'll still go get a new one though just to be safe. Will also swap her cold side and hot side raised areas round and see if that encourages her to bask more as she seems to prefer the big rock to the wooden hide thing despite the hide been a bit higher
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Okay, Red Alert: Please look directly at the UVb light for the writing and reply with the Brand, wattage, or strength (T8 or T5), and anything else it says...

No UVB tube is good for 8 months, especially not ANY T8 strength UVB tube (It is a long tube in a long tube fixture, correct? Like an 18" long fluorescent tube?). Any and all T8 UVB tubes are only good for a maximum of 6 months, at that point they have long stopped emitting adequate UVb light for a Bearded Dragon, and this would certainly be her main issue, and a very crucial and potentially dangerous one at that. And depending on what Brand you have, some of them (actually most of them) are inadequate for a Dragon from the beginning. And none of them, even the high-quality T8 UVB tubes can be obstructed by ANYTHING, not a mesh lid to the tank that they are sitting on, not a clear plastic safety cover on the bottom of the tube fixture (this blocks 100% of the UVB light emitted by the tube, as no UVB light can penetrate any type of plastic or glass, ever), and all T8 UVB tubes must be within at least 6" of the dragon or at least the dragon's Basking Spot/Platform to emit adequate UVB and UVA light to the Dragon. T8 UVB tubes cause a lot of issues if they are not set up perfectly and not replaced every 6 months on the dot.

In addition, many "house-brands" of T8 UVB tubes (and even some stronger T5 tubes) emit extremely harmful light rays as a byproduct of their cheap manufacturing process. There are a ton of T8 UVB tubes that are all made in the same factory in China, cheaply, and all of them end up being much weaker than they are labeled, and all seem to cause eye damage, blindness, and neurological damage, in addition to the Calcium Deficiency due to inadequate UVB and UVA light. These brands include All Living Things (Petsmart's house-brand), Zilla (Petco's house-brand), ReptileOne, Trixie, and many others...

The difference between an 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube and one of the above mentioned UVb tubes is 17 watts versus 13 or 15 watts. And even the 17 watt, 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube must be strapped to the underside of any mesh tank lid and be totally unobstructed by anything, must be within at least 6" of the dragon, and must be replaced every 6 months at the oldest. T8 tubes have an extremely fast UVB/UVA decay rate, so at 6 months they are basically emitting no UVB light at all and very little UVA light, and that's the good one, the Reptisun 10.0 T8. The rest of them just don't work for a Dragon at all.

So please, when you get home look right on the UVB tube you have and let us know exactly what it is, and also take a look at the tube fixture that it's in and see if there is any type of plastic or glass cover on the bottom of the fixture that covers the UVB tube (this typically applies to Zilla brand tubes, but I've seen it on other too). Also, check to see that your tube fixture has a metal reflector sitting behind the UVB tube itself. Usually they are simply a thin, flexible piece of reflective metal that slides into a slot behind the UVB tube...
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
It's an exo terra repti glow uvb. I weighed her today and was just over 200 grams which seems about right for her size but more worryingly I came home to poop smeared all over about a fifth of the viv around the cool end where she usually goes and I mean smeared she never usually runs through it or spreads of out so wondering if she has diaorriah but thinking it might be vet time. There also seemed to be a whole alive wax work in there absolutely covered which I'm hoping I just missed when cleaning up her last feed. She couldn't have passed one alive surely?
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
I feel i should add she seems absolutely healthy except for the lack of eating and now the weird poop she is alert and active she's climbing and running around the living room exploring the same as she normally does and as usual she'll snuggle for a few mins during the day before getting bored and heading for more exploring but will cuddle up as long as I like in the evening once her lights go off. Her beard is colourful and yea if it wasn't for the struggling to get her to eat, the poop and the stressed seeming wood surfing (which I had put down t adolescence) I'd think she was absolutely normal
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Your tank setup overall is good, but I would definitely replace the Reptiglo 10 tube to either
a Reptisun 10 tube, or an Arcadia D3 12% tube. You can mount that underneath of the screen
top or lid within a 6-8 inch distance using a light fixture with a reflective backing. Do you have
reflective backing in the light fixture you have now?
If she did eat a waxworm without chewing it, they can go through their system unscathed for
the most part. Her appetite can be greatly affected by now having adequate UVB lighting
because that will cause her not to be able to absorb her nutrients from her food.
She will be in danger of developing metabolic bone disease also.

Tracie
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Thanks tracie.
She's been frantically wood surfing on her cold side for a while now and its getting quite disconcerting. She's doing it when I get up and often still doing it when I come home (obviously I don't know if she does it when I'm out). Letting her out the viv doesn't seem to help but I can sometimes stroke her until she calms down but this only lasts 10 to 20 mins then it's back to wood surfing. I feel a bit cruel not been able to help her with whatever she's trying to achieve :(
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Yeah, the Reptiglo is a weak T8 tube that is only good for at most 6 months, after that it won't be emitting any UVB light at all and needs replaced. The cheapest, easiest way to do so is to buy an 18" or whatever length you currently have Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube, it's 2 watts stronger than the Reptiglo and emits no harmful rays. It does have to be mounted underneath the mesh lid though, as did the Reptiglo, soI really believe that's your main issue here, a lack of UVB light.

That mesh has been blocking 40% of the UVB/UVA light from the Reptiglo tube, which is far too weak to be blocked, and if it's older than 6 months old (I believe you said 8 months old) then it's not emitted any adequate UVb light for awhile anyway. Realize that if a T8 strength UVb tube is not strapped to the underside of the mesh lid and within at least 6" of the dragon, then the dragon has not gotten any adequate UVb light, and therefore has not really been absorbing, processing, or able to use any Calcium or any other nutrition (vitamins, minerals, etc.) from the food or any supplements that you've given him.

In addition, this will also cause severe digestion issues, which in my opinion is why the he has runny stools, and I believe this because of him passing a whole wax worm. No, he didn't pass the wax worm "alive", the stomach acids kill them immediately, but they come out whole for 2 main reasons, #1) Improper temperature zones (too low, specifically the Basking Spot Surface Area not being at least between 100-105 degrees F), and #2) Inadequate UVB/UVA light for at least 13-14 hours every day.

I would hold off on the vet for right now, and instead immediately replace and upgrade that UVB tube with an 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube, it will fit into the fixture you already have since they are both T8 UVb tubes, but the Reptisun 10.0 is stronger, more intense, and a better overall tube. Plus, the 10.0 emits 60% UVA light in addition to the UVB light, I don't know what the Reptiglo tube emits but I know they are far weaker. I would run to Petco or Petsmart and get the Reptisun 10.0 (not 5.0) immediately, and then poke 4 holes in the mesh lid over the Hot Side of the tank, being sure to leave room for the Basking Bulb to sit right alongside the UVB tube, so that both lights are "sharing" the top of the Hot Side of the tank, then position his Basking Spot/Platform directly under both lights, so that he gets both at the same time while basking. Be sure to leave both lights on every day for at least 14 hours.

FYI, the 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube has a retail of $37.99 at Petco and Petsmart, but at least at Petco (I'm not sure about Petsmart) if you go onto the Petco website and look up the Reptisun 10.0 T8 tube it costs $18, so just look it up on your phone and keep the page up, then take the tube and your phone to the register, tell them you have a website price match, and they'll sell it to you for the $18 on the spot...

After you get the new UVB tube fixture strapped to the underside of the mesh lid and the basking spot/platform directly underneath both lights, and ensure that the basking spot/platform is within at least 6" of the now unobstructed UVB tube, then use your Digital Probe Thermometer to measure the temperature of the Basking Spot Surface area. Be sure to let the Probe on the basking spot/platform for at least 20-30 minutes before reading it. If it's not between 100-105 degrees F, then you need a higher wattage bright-white colored basking bulb.

I really think that once you get him under a strong, adequate, 10% UVB tube that is unobstructed by the mesh lid and within 6" of his basking spot, and you get his basking spot/platform between 100-105 degrees F using a bright-white basking light (and not just a CHE), all of these issues are going to fix themselves very quickly.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Have you considered the possibility of eggs perhaps? She is around 1 so definitely an option.
Has she gotten any rounder at all in shape? If she is constantly wanting out, surfing the walls,
etc you could make her a laybox to see if she started digging or was interested.
At any rate, changing the UVB would be one of the first things that needs to be done.
She still hasn't shown much interest in food at all?

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie
 

Steve1878

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Thanks new uv is in the post and she was actually basking this morning when I came down which was great to see. Got her to eat a fair few wax worms yesterday (I know not good but was desperate for her to eat something!!) I'll try calci worms tonight and hope for the best. There's nothing to indicate eggs and it's more climbing than digging she's no rounder than before. She used to try and dig so I ripped up loads of toilet paper and gave her a pile of that to play with which at the time seemed to fulfill her digging desires. Hopefully she eats some of the greens i left her and some proper healthy beardie food in the next day or 2. She doesnt seem to want to come out as she knows if she glass surfs I'll let her just seems obsessed with climbing that one wooden side and then when she's out the wall of my living room a couple of meters back from where she's surfing. It's as if she's just desperate to go south no matter what's in her way. Odd little lizard
 
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