Kermit has gas in belly and I'm worried

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Dianah

Member
Kermit is 5 1/2 years old...got him from PetsSmart. He's not a special breed at all.

He weighs about 800 grams and is 20.5 inches nose to tail.

He's been on repti-carpet and tiles most of his life. He's got a huge nice cage; two 160 Watt Mega Ray mercury vapor bulbs and two 10 T5 Zoo Med 24 watt lamps (inside the cage) with nice reflectors. Warm areas on either end of the cage run 102-103--cool side 87-90.

He's hand fed. Eats collard greens and dandelion greens; hornworms.

Here's the deal--he's been lethargic to the point that over the holidays I couldn't get him to walk more than a few steps. He's a bit bloated; he needs a poo; but he's not a great one to poo inside and it's too cold now to take him out (we live in Idaho). However, that didn't explain the extent of his lethargy. I gently massaged his belly anyway and he flinched. That really concerned me.

So, I called the vet this morning and my husband took him in. I told him I wanted the doc to x ray him because I really felt that something was going on.

What she finds is a large dark mass (indicating gas, she said). I'll try to upload the images in a few minutes. She also found a dark spot on a gum; so, she sent him home w some antibiotics (Baytril, I think--I'm still at work). He's had this med before--his left orbit was swollen last year and he wouldn't open the eye--so, to be on the safe side vet prescribed antibiotics and all was well.

Our vet has not seen this before and is going to send the x rays and Kermit's history to a couple of other vets with good dragon experience in the next two days and then call me. She has not seen this before and is concerned.

Fyi, our vet is not certified specialist. However, she has a great deal of experience with reptiles (and has a few). She did not take the certification exams because her practice sees very few reptiles.

Kermit did see a specialist about 2 years ago. I took him to our local vet because he seemed to be tender in the belly. She x rayed him and was concerned although the images didn't show anything. She took some fluid from his belly and it was yellow-ish. A sample was sent for cytology and no cancer was found. She recommended an ultrasound to see if that might show us what was going on. So, we took him to a vet about 3-4 hours away. The ultrasound did not reveal anything. Kermit stayed two days for observation. When we picked him up the (certified) vet said he found nothing wrong except he was overweight. He also said the fluid in his belly was like what he'd seem in aquatic animals that were overweight. My local vet told me that she disagreed: the fluid was yellow-ish and what the specialist saw in other animals was clear. She also did not think that he was overweight enough to cause the fluid she saw. And the vet was a total asshat. He was condescending and did not appear to me to have much experience with dragons.

Kermit has been screened for parasites recently and is clean.

Sooo, I'm beside myself. This little guy is my little love. I adore him. If anybody can advise me I'd really appreciate it.

Going to try to upload his x rays.
 

CooperDragon

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Staff member
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I don't have much experience (and no training) reading x-rays so I can't really help with that. It sounds like your vet is providing good care with diagnostics and working with colleagues to get some answers. Hopefully that turns something up and it isn't serious. I don't really see anything beyond his skeleton and lungs. Did the vet do any tests on the dark spot to determine if it is an infection? I'd be conservative with antibiotics without confirmation that there is a bacterial infection. Can you post photos of the spot on his gums?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
I just wanted to mention that Kermit is a beauty. :) As a fellow b.d. lover I agree with your vet that said Kermit is overweight. Since you are the human who loves him and has 100% control of his diet it would be good to reduce his protein intake slowly over time. He would be in much better shape at about 550-650 at the most. It would be good to let him roam around a warm, beardie proofed [ no foreign objects to swallow ] room every day for a while, maybe even make a ramp to a windowsill but make him go up a few times rather than just sit on the sill. Then put a few pillows down below in case he takes an adventurous leap or tumble.

I'm not an expert xray reader either but it doesn't look much different from the ones of healthy dragons that I've Googled, it seems like the bottom portion has more density but it doesn't seem bad.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
His plain film x-ray definitely shows a lot of excess gas in his belly. It doesn't appear to be in his distal intestinal tract at all, and I don't see any signs of impaction or obstruction either. The gas is in the area of his stomach and surrounding area, so that's a worry.

I highly advise that you DO NOT GIVE HIM THE BAYTRIL AT ALL!!! Giving a Bearded Dragon a broad-spectrum Antibiotic for no reason at all (meaning without any diagnostic testing, like cultures or blood work which indicate an actual infection) is only going to make him much, much worse. This is where the lack of experience specifically with treating Bearded Dragons hurts a veterinarian, as they don't understand that giving an already lethargic, uncomfortable, and stressed Bearded Dragon an Antibiotic without knowing if they need one at all can at the least make them more lethargic and completely eliminate any sign of an appetite, and at worst make a potential fungal infection worse, make any type of kidney disease or damage much, much worse, and actually kill them. You have absolutely no sign of a bacterial infection going on here, a "black spot" on his gum/lip does not mean he has a bacterial infection at all, he could have simply cut or damaged the area and it's healing, and if the vet thought that the "black spot" on his gum/lip could be bacterial in nature, they should have immediately done a culture/swab of the area and sent it off for a Culture and Sensitivity to determine #1 Is it being caused by a microbial infection, #2 If so, exactly what microbial infection is causing it, and #3 Exactly what medication with this specific microbial infection be sensitive to...What if it's a fungal infection? The Baytril can actually make it worse. What if it's simply a cut or area of damage on his gum/lip and they gave him the Antibiotic "just in case" for no reason, and in the meantime whatever is causing the serious problem of the bloated stomach is a condition that the Antibiotic will only make worse, like kidney disease, or only make it spread, like a Gastrointestinal Yeast Infection?

Did the vet do routine blood work? That's the next step, and I'd be requesting it and getting it done immediately! A routine blood draw and panel will definitively tell you if he's suffering from some type of infection, if he's anemic, and most importantly, if he's suffering from either kidney or liver issues/disease, which is very likely with his weight, especially liver disease. It's unfortunate, but at 800 grams and only 20.5 inches long, he's extremely overweight, and this is likely a liver condition, such as Fatty Liver Disease, that is causing excess gas, excess fluid, etc. throughout his peritoneal cavity and gastrointestinal tract. I'm sorry that this vet didn't do blood work immediately after seeing his weight and then this x-ray, rather than randomly prescribing a broad-spectrum antibiotic that may actually make him much, much worse. It certainly won't make him feel any better, that's for sure...and no Probiotics prescribed with the Baytril either?

I can only tell you what I think and what I would do if it was my own baby, based on my education and professional experience, along with my own personal Bearded Dragon experience, but I would NOT GIVE HIM ANY OF THE BAYTRIL, I would immediately call the vet back and request that they do a routine blood draw and a full blood profile/work-up to rule-out or confirm infection, kidney disease, liver disease, and any type of internal bleeding/anemic conditions. At his size they should have no trouble at all getting ample blood from a draw at the dorsal tail vein. An exotics vet with experience shouldn't have any issue doing this, and if I called them and requested the blood panel and the vet told me to "Wait, give him the Baytril and wait to see if it helps him" I'd call the next vet, and the next, until I found one willing to do a blood panel. It shouldn't even be a question at this point.

If I seem a bit agitated it's because I am, not at you obviously, this isn't your fault, you just want to help your baby get well. I'm frustrated because it's very likely based on his history, his weight, and the excess gas/fluid that he's suffering from Liver and/or Kidney issues, and the last thing he needs is to take an oral Antibiotic without knowing this first. It's the same situation as when a dragon with swollen extremities comes in to an exotics vet and the vet does no blood panel, doesn't even mention gout, and prescribes an Antibiotic, usually Baytril, "just in case" they have a bacterial infection (and one that Baytril treats), and all the while the poor beardie has Gout and his kidneys are already overloaded and stressed from the Uric Acid build-up, and then the Antibiotic not only makes them extremely sick, but often actually kills them. That's why I'm agitated, as this is becoming very, very common and it's unnecessary.

Anyway, please get a blood panel done ASAP, keep him well hydrated by offering the Pedialyte (good choice) by mouth several times throughout the day (do not soak him in the Pedialyte, he needs to ingest it), and go easy on food right now, I'd stick to soft foods that are high in fluid content for now until you get the blood work results back, as you need to keep his kidneys flushed and the stress on his liver as low as possible.
 

Dianah

Member
Original Poster
Hi There

Thanks for your responses.

When I got home last night I looked in his mouth and didn't see anything that concerned me. I decided not to give him the antibiotics....for the very reasons you mention.

He's had blood work twice in the past 18 months or so and everything was within normal parameters. However, when I called the vet's office this morning to tell them I don't want to give him the Baytril while this other thing is going on (and without a clear diagnosis) I also scheduled him for a blood draw. I'm not sure why they didn't take blood...they have on previous occasions when I've been concerned about something.

When I speak to the vet tomorrow I'll also ask about culturing the area on his gums.

Yes, he is overweight. At the vet yesterday he weighed 780 grams--part of that is an overdue poo. Yet, he is still a bit overweight. He's lost some weight in the past two years--more veg and fewer hornworms. He's almost never eaten veg on his own. He must be hand fed veg or tricked into eating them, etc. So, the weight loss has been gradual but he is still losing some.

Thanks, you guys. I'll keep you posted on how my little angel is doing.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Poor guy, how is Kermit doing today?
It isn't pleasant for them to get blood drawn. If they are not able to figure out why he is
having tummy issues from the ultrasound, the fluids drawn out & x-rays, then blood work
would be helpful!
I don't usually recommend medications for no confirmed diagnosis, either. They can be
really hard on them.
The x-rays look pretty normal to me, also. Just enlarged fat pads & his liver might be a
bit enlarged, it's hard to tell from the x-rays.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
 

Dianah

Member
Original Poster
Have an update.

Last weekend he had an enormous poo.

We had blood work done and nothing looked out of the ordinary--electrolytes a little high but I'd been giving him some Pedialyte--that could explain that reading. Doc also withdrew some fluid from his abdomen and sent it for cytology--got results the other day and nothing suspicious was found. So, we still don't know what was going on.

After talking to the doc we decided another x-ray would be good. We did that yesterday. The gas pocket is almost gone. Yay!

She also noted that the little spot on his gum is smaller. I asked about a culture. She says that because there is so much bacteria in the mouth a culture wouldn't give helpful results. She wants to watch it though and he'll go back in 3 weeks to check it.

Kermit feels a lot better. He's still not as active as he was but I wonder if he's trying to brumate. He sleeps a good bit and is in his hide more than usual. However, when I pick him up for cuddles he's alert and engaged--until we fall asleep on the sofa.

I measured his length--it's been a long time since I did that. He's actually a full 21 inches long...I was off 1/2 and inch. After his poo he weighed about 760 grams--yeah--huge poo. He's still chunky but we are working on losing some more weight a little at a time.

We still don't know that he doesn't have some disease process going on. The vet and I discussed fatty liver disease, kidney problems, etc. The fact that his blood work looks ok makes me feel a lot better.

Is there anything you guys think I should be watching for?

Thanks for the advice and concern.

Will upload a nice pic of him in a minute...this was just before it turned cold.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Aw, there's a sweet boy. :) can imagine that you feel relieved to find nothing wrong, I'm glad for you. :) I believe he's just overweight + sluggish. Adults tend to be kind of like couch potatoes anyway. I'd hate to think the vets were taking a little bit advantage of you but the obvious things are pretty much what I mentioned. Don't bother with anymore bloodwork or cultures at least for another year.
 

Dianah

Member
Original Poster
Really?? So, he's probably ok--just a tubby, huh?

I'm quite relieved. Most people understand devotion to a furry pet but don't seem to get lizard love. He is such a little dear. I work insane hours in a stressful and intense job; so, getting home at night and cuddling my little guy is very often the highlight of my day. If I'd been told how attached I'd get to this guy I'm not sure I would have believed it.

Btw, I don't think our vet is taking advantage. Rather, I think she's accommodating an over-anxious beardie mom. She didn't charge for this last visit to get a follow up x-ray. When his little eye was swollen she only charged for the ointment--which wasn't costly at all. Last winter I took him to see her after no poopy for 5 weeks--she felt his tummy and declared him lazy but not impacted. She easily could have intervened and given him an enema--but, she didn't even charge for the visit. She doesn't get to treat many exotics in her practice so she enjoys him. She volunteers at our local zoo (birds mostly, I think) and she's a member of an animal rescue and rehab group in the area. So, yeah, I think she's pretty swell. On the other hand, the reptile vet we took him to a couple of years ago charged an arm and a leg and is a condescending, um, &@^*.

Thanks again for the advice and concern. This board is a fantastic resource.

Going home to my little Kermie for cuddles and kisses (yes, I kiss him).

Cheers!
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Sounds good....and I apologize sincerely for my wrong conclusion about your vet, she does sound like a very helpful one. :) Enjoy your baby. :)
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That is awesome the bloodwork turned out alright & within normal ranges! I am sure you
are very relieved for Kermit. He sure is a handsome dragon, too, he has great colors! :D
They do have a lot of mouth bacteria & a mouth culture could yield a specific type but if
his mouth has improved I wouldn't worry about it, either.
Just focus on healthy foods for him & try to get him to move around & play to exercise some.
I think he will be just fine.

Tracie
 

Dianah

Member
Original Poster
No apology necessary, AHBD. I appreciate the input and concern.

Kermit is a bit more active in the last few days. I did a little construction on his enclosure this weekend. I lowered the two T5HO fixtures about 4 inches and it boosted the UVB readings quite a bit. It may help and certainly won't hurt.

I'd like to grow dandelion for him. Any suggestions on varieties that'd be best for him and easy to grow?

Thanks!
 
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