Muscular Degeneration

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EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I love Phoenix Worms/BSFL, I have been feeding them to all of my dragons as their main, live, staple insects. I order 1,000 each month for around $23 shipped on www.dubiaroaches.com, they are the cheapest I've found, and www.symtonbsf.com is my back up. BSFL/Phoenix Worms are very nutritious for them, they contain a very high calcium content, and are also high in fluids.

A few BSFL tips: #1, always order only the size Large Phoenix Worms/BSFL, as if you order the size small or medium you'll be running through them like water. They are soft bodied, so it's not like feeding them crickets or roaches, where they must be always smaller than the space between their eyes, there is no risk of choking or impaction with BSFL. So always order size large, you'll save a small fortune. #2, always feed the darkest colored worms first, as they are the closest to turning, and more importantly, the darker they are, the higher their calcium content is. #3, DO NOT KEEP THEM IN THE FRIDGE, THEY'LL DIE!!! A lot of people find this out the hard way, lol. If you have a place that you can keep them that is cooler, like a basement or a garage, that's best. If not, just keep them at room temperature. #4, keep them in a substrate of either oatmeal, oatbran, or another similar type of edible bedding, no sawdust or wood chips, as they will eat the bedding, and you want them to eat only healthy things because you're feeding them to your dragon.

Also important, gut-load the BSFL with the same greens and veggies that you give to your dragon. Just throw in some pieces of collard greens, turnip greens, mustard greens, dandelion greens, escarole, endive, arugula, swiss chard, or bok choy, and then also some pieces of squash (any types), bell peppers (any types), green beans, peas, pea pods, etc. Do this each morning, just toss in a few pieces of these, and then also keep either a couple large slices of apples or a potato in with them at all times as well. Make sure that you completely peel/skin the apple or potato, cut it into a few large slices, and then just throw them in and keep them in there until they start to turn, then replace them. You'll see holes through them, this is going to be the worm's source of constant hydration.

I keep my bulk BSFL in a plastic tub in my basement, which is between 55-60 degrees. This cool but not cold temperature slows them down considerably, but won't put them to sleep or kill them like the fridge will. Then I go down to basement with a smaller container and gather up the amount of them I need for that feeding, again, taking the DARKEST COLORED WORMS FIRST. Then I take only the number I need upstairs in the smaller container and run them quickly under warm water (not hot, lol) to wake them up and get them moving. Then I dust them in the calcium and/or multivitamins and then feed them. This is the best way to keep them if you can, because they'll keep the longest and won't turn into flies. I have 3 dragons currently, 2 that are over a year old, and then one that is 7 months old, so obviously he eats the most of them, with my year old girl right behind him. I buy 1,000 size large and this lasts me almost a month, I have auto shipment set up so that I get my new shipment the third week of each month so I don't run out.

With only 1 dragon (who by the way will be eating a ton of the BSFL each day once he gets under that T5 strength UVB tube, which is why I recommended size large only), I would order him probably between 200-300 size large BSFL/Phoenix Worms, which on www.dubiaroaches.com will only cost you around $15 shipped at most. That should last your guy a month, and that way you won't have too many and they won't turn.

I also supplement my BSFL with Superworms, giving all 3 of my guys 1-2 size medium/large Superworms each day total, during one of their daily feeding sessions. These not only fill them up and save on the BSFL, but they give them a good amount of fluid/hydration. My 7 month old still isn't eating a lot of greens/veggies, they typically don't until they are at least a year old, or even closer to 2 years old. I had a prior male that I got at about 2 months old and who lived just shy of 13 years old, and he didn't start eating a good amount of greens/veggies each day until he was about 2 years old. I always put their fresh salad of greens and veggies into their enclosures after their first live insect feeding session of the day, so they don't fill up on salad and ignore their live insect protein.

I'm of the school that still feeds their adult dragons live insects every single day along with their fresh daily salads. Some people choose to only feed their adult dragons live insects one, two, or three days a week, some only feed them live insects once every other week, but because in their natural environments they continue eating live insects every day, I do the same. They do eat a lot less insect protein as adults than as babies or juveniles, but they still get at least one live insect feeding every single day.

Also, I forgot, YOU STILL HAVE TO DUST THE PHOENIX WORMS/BSFL IN CALCIUM POWDER, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE VENDOR SAYS!!! Some BSFL/Phoenix Worm vendors actually state on their websites that the worms have a high enough calcium content that you "never have to dust them in calcium powder", but that's the best way to surely end up with a dragon suffering from MBD. What they don't say is that ONLY the worms that are very dark in color have a higher than average calcium content in comparison to other live feeder insects. So please, do not let the fact that you're feeding him BSFL change your calcium dusting schedule at all, especially since he's already suffering from severe MBD. He needs all of the insects from one of his live insect daily feeding sessions dusted in calcium powder. I'd do 3 days with vitamin D3, and 4 days without, then 3 with a multivitamin.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is your boy doing this evening?
I don't personally think the soaking was a waste of time, it does help them feel better
& they can definitely benefit from it. Since he has metabolic bone disease, soaking him
& letting him swim can help strengthen up his muscles & help his joints. Water therapy is
very helpful. He could also learn to drink from the bath also.
Is he eating any better?
The liquid vitamins should be fine. Since it likely contains vitamin A, D, & E, be sure not
to overdose on that. I would say to give no more than twice per week to avoid any type
of toxicity.
Keep us posted on him.

Tracie
 

Chloe6894

Member
Original Poster
Hi!
Thanks for checking in. He has had a ton of energy today. He has not wanted to be in his cage at all he just wants to hang out. He has eaten a lot more of his prepared diet than is usual, these past few days. His phoenix worms will be in tomorrow and I expect he will go crazy for them since we ran out of crickets the day before yesterday.
I made him drink the calcium with a syringe yesterday and he was not very happy with me but he complied.
I will keep the water therapy in mind, he has never swam before (even when he was a baby). Do beardies usually just do this? All he does in baths is puff out his belly and float, he occasionally drinks from them too.
I will be careful with the vitamins.
Thank you!
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That's great he is doing better today & had more energy.
He probably got a better dose of calcium orally than just dusting. It should help him
quite a bit taking it like that.
I am sure he will love the phoenix worms, absolutely. Most of them tend to.
Yes, a lot of them will puff up, so they can float. LOL If he drinks from his bath that
would be helpful for him.
Keep us posted on how he is doing.

Tracie
 

Chloe6894

Member
Original Poster
Hi everyone,
Last night I noticed for the first time that Muchu’s eyes droop significantly like a blood hound’s. Is this a symptom of MBD, a genetic condition, or a sign of kidney distress?
I added a picture of his eye below.

Thank you.

96253-1713195551.jpg
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

His eyes are bright & are not sunken in so I don't think he is dehydrated. Their eyes can droop
simply from genetics yet. It usually isn't a sign of metabolic bone disease or kidney disease but
severe dehydration can be indicative of kidney problems though.
How is he doing today?

Tracie
 

Chloe6894

Member
Original Poster
Thank you for your response!

I wanted to pin it to genetics but it has never been like this. All day I was thinking how sad I thought his eyes looked. I looked closer and realized I was thinking that because his eyes looked like blood hound eyes. I don't think he is dehydrated because his urate is white.

We had a bit of a scare this morning. He got in his water bowl to soak before I woke up. When I got up to check on him he was all dark and very cold. He was stuck in his bowl. We got him warmed back up and he is feeling better now.

His appetite has been great. He's been eating turnip, cottage greens and squash every morning and he ate nearly 50 crickets yesterday afternoon in a 15 minute window.

Thanks!
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I don't think his eyes look "droopy" at all either, they look normal to me. Bright and alert. But as Tracie already mentioned, droopy eyes is a sign of dehydration, not a genetics issue unless they are born with them that way, and not a sign of MBD.

I'm glad you got him the liquid Calcium orally with the syringe, this is exactly why he perked right up, he'll just have to get used to taking it that way, because it's extremely important that he gets an oral dose daily. He'll get over it, lol.

As for the water bowl, that's exactly what I mentioned to you, they have a horrible habit of falling asleep in a water bowl and I know several people who have woken up to a dead Dragon who died of hypothermia overnight by falling asleep in the water bowl. So I definitely would completely remove the water bowl from his tank, at the very least be absolutely sure to only keep it in there during the day while his lights are on and force yourself to remember to remove it at bedtime when you turn off his lights, or just remove it completely if he doesn't drink out of it.

If he drinks from the bath water then that can definitely help him, and yes, they do "balloon up" to float in the water, but if he's stressing to get out of the water then it's better to get hydration in him by either dripping it on his snout and letting him lick it off, or by using an oral syringe to give him a little water or unflavored Pedialyte daily. If his eyes are actually looking "Droopy" then you need to offer him some hydration by mouth daily, several times a day, by just dripping it on his snout for him to lick off. But again, please remove the bowl of water from his tank, at least every night before bedtime, because he'll most likely keep falling asleep in it and I don't want you to wake up to a horrible tragedy like some people have...
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is your boy doing today?
I agree, it would be a good idea to remove the water bowl at night especially so he cannot
fall asleep in it, get stuck & drown. Unfortunately, this has happened to members on here.
Is he liking his calcium?
It sounds like he has a great appetite, too, that is wonderful! I'm happy to hear he is eating
his greens like a champ! :D He must be feeling quite a bit better now.

Keep us posted on his progress.

Tracie
 

Chloe6894

Member
Original Poster
Hi Everyone,

Muchu has had an especially rough last week or so. I think the calcium and vitamins via syringe have traumatized him. He has always been gentle and even now he is not aggressive but easily frightened by myself and anyone who goes near his enclosure. This is extremely unusual for him.

It has been rare that I see him bright and happy. He is usually an extremely ambitious hunter even though he can only eat the crickets from my hands. Yesterday he was not eager at all and slowly ate about 25 crickets.
Last night I was petting him to sleep and he suddenly woke up and tightened his stomach to the point that it was about 1 inch in circumference. He just left his belly that way for a while and then slowly u until the next morning he loosened it. I googled it but could not find any information.

Thanks for any help!
 
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