New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

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New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby micuit » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:13 pm

Long post ahead. Sorry, but I've put all the info I have. Ctrl + f the info if you need anyting. Or just ask I'll answer super quickly.
Sorry if there is spelling errors. I live in Canada and I am french.

My Beardie is really not good and I think I need help.

First thing i'm doing right now :
- Going to buy a new 10.0 UVB bulb
- Buying a new Digital thermometer

I just want him to be good, money not really a problem. But people keep saying different stuff, So I never know what is OK or not.

Symptoms :
- He sleeps so much. Like always, he doesn't really move.
- When we pick him up, he lay down in our hand and doesn't move either, closes his eyes very often.
- I feel like he doesn't eat much. (1-2 crickets per day, but he eats worms sometimes when we get them to him, he also takes the salad when we feed him) But today he almost hasn't eaten. I haven't seen him eat (did put some crickets in the cage, didn't count them but the was about 5).
- He poops everyday since I have it. He pooped this morning.
- When he sleeps (21h30) he just lays in the cage and doesn't move for like 12 hours.

First off Info about it :
We have it since 2 full days.
7 inches from tail to head.
I think he's about 8-10 weeks.
Tans, Hypo, Leatherback
He was active when we got it

Info About me :
- New to reptiles
- Everyone is saying everything different and i'm getting super confused.

Info about cage :
We USED for 1 day coconut substrate which the guy who sold us the cage was using. We didn't like the substrate because the crickets were hiding in it. So we replaced it by Scott Paper towels until he's active again.(We plan to use Vinyl after)

39 inch x 20 inch x 20 inch
It HAS a mesh lid
1 Ceramic 150W heater (looks like that https://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Ceramic-150-Watt-110-Volt/dp/B0002DIAXY)
1 T5 H0 Zoomed terrarium hood (36 inch) with bulb (the tube is 34 inch long)
This exacly : https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-26054-Reptisun-Terrarium/dp/B00AQU8FR4/ref=pd_sbs_199_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00AQU8FR4&pd_rd_r=9E28XST0J07571YM3JGG&pd_rd_w=2jhLr&pd_rd_wg=9GH5T&psc=1&refRID=9E28XST0J07571YM3JGG
The UVB Bulb is currently T5 H0 5.0 UVB ON the mesh lid
- I will go and upgrade it tonight to a 10.0 as I've seen it was bad to have a 5.0.

Cage Temperatures calculated with a digital thermometer that someone gave me :
I think it doesn't work well.
Basking spot : 90 F (I mean it's literally 7 inches from the heater which is over the mesh lid, can't really go higher of he'll be at the top of the cage)
Hot side : 87.8 F (Which is like 20 inches away from the heater)
Cool Side : 80 F

Some pictures :
The cage : https://imgur.com/0QfA9f3
Him : https://imgur.com/D6eDxy9
He's not always standing like that
And are those black lines normal underneath?
Him again : https://imgur.com/CidRwVV
We managed to place something higher since people say it's around 105 F at the basking spot :
He went there by himself : https://imgur.com/rQWTcgU
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby micuit » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:28 pm

After placing him really close to the heater he did this : https://imgur.com/kCmXVZt
Is it good? He opened his mouth to regulate his heat am I correct? So he's getting more heat now?
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby micuit » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:49 pm

Alright, after reading and everything I manage to setup something so that he can even get closer to the heater. He first off oppened his mouth, now he went down a bit. The stop where he is at is around 105 - 106 F (I think it's insane, but hey, if thats what he needs.) I think this was one problem. Tho, the item i use as Basking spot currently is a branch, should it be a rock or something? And He can go higher still since the branch is pretty high, he's sitting near the 2/3 of it. At the start he went to the top. Is it dangerous that he just climbs to the the top and burn himself ? Or is he intelligent enough to not burn himself?

Thank you. I'll keep updated
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby VenusAndSaturn » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:33 pm

He most likely wont burn himself, however personally i'd get a bright basking lamp rather than a CHE, you can use it for night time but when it comes to basking they seem to do better with a bright light rather than a dim light or no lighting for basking.

Definitely get a 10.0 uvb tube at the moment hes barely getting uvb from the 5.0, he should perk up more once you have it.

As for feeding can you tell me how many times your dusting his food, how much you are currently trying to offer, and all the foods you are offering.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby micuit » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:01 pm

VenusAndSaturn wrote:He most likely wont burn himself, however personally i'd get a bright basking lamp rather than a CHE, you can use it for night time but when it comes to basking they seem to do better with a bright light rather than a dim light or no lighting for basking.

I don't use any kind of heating during the night. (The temperature drops around 70 F)
I chose a CHE since it's more durable. Is it still OK? Or should I REALLY get a basking lamp?

VenusAndSaturn wrote:Definitely get a 10.0 uvb tube at the moment hes barely getting uvb from the 5.0, he should perk up more once you have it.

Ok, I'll go tomorrow, there's a huge snow storm outside, it wouldn't be really safe atm.
Question : Should the UVB tube be INSIDE the cage or Outside sitting on the mesh lid? I mean, Zoo Med makes the one sitting on top of the mesd lid, it must not be that bad?

VenusAndSaturn wrote:As for feeding can you tell me how many times your dusting his food, how much you are currently trying to offer, and all the foods you are offering.

Hi, since I just got him, I've had 3 "lunch" Monday morning I gave him small crickets(about 5, he ate like 2) (not dusted) and some small worms(he ate more of these, like 7-8) (they are like brownish) (not dusted) the 2 first times. I did gave him some lettuce too. The 3rd time was this morning. He didn't eat at all (from what I saw), he looked at the crickets (dusted) and did nothing, I left them there, I did not count how many there was tho. Tried feeding him worms and he ate one in the whole day. Not sure if he ate the lettuce in the bowl.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby VenusAndSaturn » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:30 pm

If you mean worms by mealworms wait until hes 6 months to feed those, they are a bit less horrible than superworms but i dont like to feed them to such a young beardie. Beardies do like worms so if you can you could order hornworms or calciworms, or silkworms which the calciworms/pheonixworms/BSFL (they have many names) and silkworms can be fed as a staple with hornworms as a treat. They say calciworms dont need to be dusted however i lightly dust mine just in case. Not so sure about silkworms and dusting though.

You should get a basking lamp, it would help and brighten the tank up more.

Usuaully its good to have the uvb inside, the t5 HO 10.0 reptisun tube lights can be mounted on the top along with MVB's (Uvb and heat, still need a tube light if you get one of these). If you want you can take the one you have and tie it to the top using wire, it would be a lot better for him from where it is now.

Usually for feeding per age i do this
1-4 months 3 times a day 10-20 bugs each feeding, 4-12 months 2 times a day 10-20 bugs each, 12-20 months once a day 10-20 bugs each, 20+ months every other day or 2-3 times a week 10-20 bugs each feeding.
And by bugs i mean staple feeders.

As for dusting usually 5 times a week for calcium (no d3) on at least one meal, and then 2 times a week with multivitamins on at least one meal for that day.

I do want to tell you this though, the lettuce you are feeding him doesnt give him anything but water. Collard greens, turnip greens and mustard greens are the best choice or at least the most common choice to feed daily. If you have any blueberries on hand or anything you can try offering that, i tried it for the first time earlier with mine and my adult female seemed to go crazy for them. Though only offer fruit 1-2 times a week or so.

This is a great place to look at what you can feed. http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby EllenD » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:57 pm

Let's simplify this for you. Your main issue is that you're not using a bright white Basking Bulb but rather a CHE. This is very, very bad for a desert reptile, as your main goal is to replicate natural sunlight as closely as possible. A CHE should only be used if a nighttime heat source is required, and 99% of the time it is not require at all, as the Australian Desert is very, very cool and Pitch black at night. So as long as the temperature at nighttime is at least 65 degrees F, which it most likely is with no heat source, then you need no nighttime heat source at all.

You need 2 total lights for a Bearded Dragon, both should be right alongside each other over the Hot Side of the tank (not end-to-end, but rather right alongside each other), and whatever you are using as his Basking spot/platform should then be moved so that it is directly under these 2 lights, so that your dragon gets both while he is basking.

The first light needs to be a bright-white colored Basking Bulb in either a dome lamp or a clamp lamp (dome lamp is better), sitting on top of the mesh lid (never use ANY colored basking bulbs for a bearded dragon, they see in full color and this can confuse night and day for them and mask their food). This bright-white colored Basking Bulb needs to be the adequate and correct wattage to get the temperature zones within the correct ranges, and you shouldn't have to use any added CHE over the Hot Side of the tank to achieve these temperatures at all. At the very most, you may need to add a second bright white Basking Bulb of a much lower wattage over the Cool Side of the tank to get the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature between the necessary 75-80 degrees F. But you won't know whether or not you need to add a second bright-white colored basking Bulb until you get the correct UVB tube and the main, high wattage bright-white colored Basking Bulb set up over the Hot Side of the tank, right alongside each other, and let the tank heat up for at least an hour or two.

I don't know what size of tank/enclosure you have, but just for reference, typically a single 100 watt, bright-white colored Basking Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank will get both the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature within the correct ranges. So if you have a tank that is larger than a 40 Gallon Breeder tank then I would try a 125 watt bright-white colored Basking Bulb or even a 150 watt, but keep in mind that you will most likely need a bright-white Basking Bulb that is of a lower wattage than the CHE you've been using, though your temperatures sound like they are extremely low, which is one of the main reasons, or the main reason that he is sleeping so much and is so lethargic and not eating nearly the amount of food he should be. Babies like this typically eat between 40-60 live insects every single day (smaller than the space between their eyes), so you can see how much of an issue you have going on due to using that CHE. Dragons get ALL of their heat from bright-white light from above, that's it, so that's why you're having such issues.

As far as the type of bright-white colored Basking Bulb you should buy, you can either buy a more expensive, Reptile-Specialty Basking Bulb that you would buy at a Pet Shop (IT MUST ONLY BE WHITE IN COLOR, NO RED, BLUE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLACK, PURPLE, ETC., ONLY WHITE!!!), or you can simply use a regular, household, Halogen Indoor-Flood Bulb, like the kind that you buy at a hardware or department store. They are all bright white in color, so you don't have to worry about that, just make sure that #1) It's Halogen (not LED, that's becoming all you see anymore, but in most US hardware stores like Lowes, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc. they still sell all wattages of Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs), and #2) That it's a Halogen "Flood" Bulb, and not a "Spot" Bulb, because the "Spot" bulbs focus all the light on one spot, while the flood bulbs fill the Hot Side of the tank. You'll pay less for the Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs, but the choice is yours. I'd buy a few different wattages, like a 100 watt, a 125 watt, and a 150 watt, start with the 100 watt and go from there, and then take the other ones back to the store and return them once you figure out what is the appropriate wattage for the temperatures. And just remove the CHE completely.

The second light you need is a strong UVB tube, a long tube that is at the very least 18", but I recommend at least a 22" or 24", depending on the strength you buy. You said you already have a Reptisun T5HO UVB tube, which is exactly what I have used for years and what I always recommend for a Bearded Dragon, but yes, you must order a 10.0 (means 10% UVB light) rather than the 5.0 (only 5% UVB light). The 5.0 UVB tubes are only 5% UVB light, and as such must be much, much closer to your dragon to be effective. Also, they cannot be on top of the mesh lid, as the 5" UVb being blocked by 40% is basically eliminating any UVB light from reaching your dragon at all, and this is problem #2 that you're having.

A Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB light can sit on top of the mesh lid, though at this point, because your dragon has been deprived of pretty much any UVB light at all, I would still mount the 10.0 UVB tube on the underside of the mesh lid by poking 4 holes in the mesh lid, and then using long zip ties, twine, wire, shoelaces, etc. to strap the entire fixture to the underside of the mesh lid. Be sure that you strap it to the underside of the mesh lid that is over the Hot Side of the tank, and put it off center to one side (front or back, but not against the front or back glass, just off center to the front or back) to allow room for the bright white Basking Bulb in a dome lamp fixture to sit on top of the mesh lid right alongside the UVB tube. Then position his Basking Spot/Platform directly underneath both lights, so that he'll get both while basking.

You have a Digital Probe thermometer, that's great, but you have to know how to use it correctly or the readings will no be anywhere near accurate. First of all, both the bright white Basking Bulb and the UVB tube must be turned on and be on for at least 1-2 hours BEFORE you try to take temperature readings, to allow the tank to heat the whole way up. Secondly, you absolutely must allow the Probe to sit on the spot you are measuring for at least 20-30 minutes BEFORE you read the temperature, to allow the Probe to heat the whole way up.

BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE (Within the Hot Side of the tank and directly underneath the center of both the bright-white colored Basking Bulb and the long UVB tube): Between 105-110 degrees F for a baby/juvenile up to about a year old; between 100-105 degrees F for an adult a year old and older (they tend to like it a bit cooler once they hit adulthood); FYI: THE HIGHEST ANY TEMPERATURE SHOULD HIT INSIDE A BEARDED DRAGON'S TANK ANYWHERE IS 110 DEGREES F, ANYTHING HIGHER THAN 110 DEGREES F CAN BE LETHAL.

HOT SIDE AMBIENT (air) TEMPERATURE (The Hot Side of the tank that surrounds the Basking Spot/Platform): Between 88-93 degrees F maximum.

COOL SIDE AMBIENT (air) TEMPERATURE (The Cool Side of the tank that is opposite the Hot Side that contains the Basking Spot/Platform): Between 75-80 degrees F maximum.

TO PROPERLY USE THE DIGITAL PROBE THERMOMETER TO MEASURE TEMPERATURES: After you set up both his lights and allow them to be on for at least 1-2 hours, the first temperature you want to measure is the Basking Spot Surface Temperature. Place the Probe of the thermometer directly on the Basking Spot/Platform, exactly in the spot that your dragon sits/lays while he's basking. You can use the suction cup that comes with the Digital Probe Thermometer to stick the Probe right on the Basking Spot if necessary. Allow the Probe to sit directly on the Basking Spot/Platform for at least 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature and write it down. Then move on to measuring the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature. You do this by sticking the suction cup that comes with the Digital Probe Thermometer to the glass of the tank on the Hot Side of the tank that is surrounding the Basking Spot. Make sure that the suction-cup is attached to the start of the wire, right below the Probe, and then stick the suction-cup to the glass about 2" up from the floor, either to the side or the front glass of the tank on the Hot Side (the Probe will just be hanging in the air while the suction-cup is stuck to the glass). Allow the Probe to sit there for at least 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature and write it down.

If the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature are within at least 10 degrees or less of the ranges I listed above, in either direction, it may be possible to simply raise ONLY the Basking Bulb (if the temperatures are too high) or lower the Basking Bulb (if the temperature are too low) in order to bump these temperature up or down in order to get the Basking Spot Surface Temperature within 105-110 degrees F, and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature within 88-93 degrees F. Remember though, that the Basking Spot/Platform must be within at least 11" of the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube (THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOUR CURRENT 5.0 UVB TUBE, WHICH HAS TO BE WITHIN 3-4" OF HIM TO BE EFFECTIVE, WHICH YOU CANNOT DUE BECAUSE IT CAN CAUSE SEVERE EYE AND NEUROLOGICAL DAMAGE, AS WELL AS BLINDNESS; I AM WRITING THESE TEMPERATURE DIRECTIONS ASSUMING THAT YOU'VE MOUNTED A REPTISUN 10.0 T5HO TO THE UNDERSIDE OF THE MESH LID OVER THE HOT SIDE OF THE TANK, AND RIGHT ALONGSIDE A NEW BRIGHT-WHITE, HALOGEN BASKING BULB). So, while you obviously cannot move the UVb tube because it's strapped to the mesh lid, you can however move the Basking Spot/Platform or use a higher or lower Basking Spot/Platform to alter these 2 temperature ranges, if necessary, AS LONG AS THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM STAYS WITHIN AT LEAST 11" OF THE 10.0 T5HO UVB TUBE.

If however these 2 temperatures are over 10 degrees outside of the correct ranges in either direction, then I suggest not trying to raise or lower either the bright-white Basking Bulb or the Basking Spot/Platform, but rather just going to the next higher or lower wattage of bright-white Basking Bulb, allowing this new Basking Bulb to be on for at least 1-2 hours, and then taking these 2 temperatures again.

Once you get both the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature within 105-110 degrees F and 88-93 degrees F, respectively, then you can move on to measuring the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature. You do this the same way you measured the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature, by attaching the suction-cup to the wire of the thermometer, right below the Probe, and then sticking it to the glass on the opposite Cool Side of the tank, either the glass on the Side or the Front of the Cool Side of the tank, and about 2" up from the floor of the tank. Allow the Probe to hang there for at least 20-30 minutes, and then read the temperature.

It's extremely important that the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature fall between 75-80 degrees F as a maximum, because your dragon always needs an area inside his tank to go that is considerably cooler than the opposite Hot Side of the tank, so that he can cool down whenever he wants to. In most cases, it's much easier to adjust the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature than it is the other 2 temperature zones, because usually once the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperatures are correct, the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature will fall within the correct range of 75-80 degrees, or it will be a bit cooler, but it's very rare that it's hotter than the proper range. If it measure no higher than 83 degrees, then you're okay and can leave it alone, and if it measure no cooler than 70 degrees you're alright and you can leave it alone, as the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature does have a little bit of play in it. However, it's extremely important that the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature not be any higher than 83 degrees F at an absolute max. This usually doesn't happen, but if it does, I suggest trying to just raise the bright-white Basking Bulb up an inch or two, waiting 1-2 hours, then measuring the Cool Side Ambient Temperature again, this will usually correct that problem, if it occurs.

More often than not, if the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature does not fall between 75-80 degrees, it is going to fall lower. If this temperature ends up being lower than 70 degrees, you'll need to add a second bright-white Basking Bulb over the Cool Side of the tank, either in another Dome Lamp Fixture that will sit on top of the mesh lid over the Cool Side of the tank, or in a Clamp Lamp Fixture that will clamp to the edge of the lid and be pointed over the Cool Side of the tank. Keep in mind that you're not going to need a very high wattage Basking Bulb over the Cool Side, no where near the wattage of your main Basking Bulb. For example, let's say your Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature ends up measuring at 60 degrees, your best bet is to start off with a 25 watt bright-white Basking Bulb added over the Cool Side of the tank, allow it to be on over the Cool Side for at least 1-2 hours, then again remeasure the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature, and see if it falls over 70 degrees but lower than 83 degrees. If it does, you're done (and most likely it will). It's all relative to how many degrees you need to raise the temperature, but a good rule of thumb is "Always start with the lowest available wattage and go up", and "Always get a lower wattage, bright-white colored Basking Bulb than you think you'll need". We always tend to think we need more wattage than we do.

Again, please completely remove that CHE, it's not the way that a Bearded Dragon, being a Desert Reptile that comes naturally from bright, intense, natural sunlight all day long, needs or wants to get his heat, and this is what is causing all of his lethargy and your extremely low temperatures. Bright white colored light and strong, intense UVb light is what he needs.

Be sure to replace your 10.0 T5HO UVB tube once every 10 months to a year at most, as that is when all of the UVB light will have decayed. And please be sure to leave both his bright-white colored basking bulb and his UVB tube on every single day for at least a 13-14 hour photoperiod.

Also, never feed your dragon in the morning before both of his lights have been on for at least 1-2 hours, and never feed him at night without allowing both his lights to remain on after he eats for at least 1-2 hours. This will allow his body to remain at the proper temperatures to digest the food that he eats, and to absorb enough adequate UVb light to absorb and process (use) the nutrition from the food that he digest.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby micuit » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:53 pm

EllenD wrote:Let's simplify this for you. Your main issue is that you're not using a bright white Basking Bulb but rather a CHE. This is very, very bad for a desert reptile, as your main goal is to replicate natural sunlight as closely as possible. A CHE should only be used if a nighttime heat source is required, and 99% of the time it is not require at all, as the Australian Desert is very, very cool and Pitch black at night. So as long as the temperature at nighttime is at least 65 degrees F, which it most likely is with no heat source, then you need no nighttime heat source at all.

You need 2 total lights for a Bearded Dragon, both should be right alongside each other over the Hot Side of the tank (not end-to-end, but rather right alongside each other), and whatever you are using as his Basking spot/platform should then be moved so that it is directly under these 2 lights, so that your dragon gets both while he is basking.

The first light needs to be a bright-white colored Basking Bulb in either a dome lamp or a clamp lamp (dome lamp is better), sitting on top of the mesh lid (never use ANY colored basking bulbs for a bearded dragon, they see in full color and this can confuse night and day for them and mask their food). This bright-white colored Basking Bulb needs to be the adequate and correct wattage to get the temperature zones within the correct ranges, and you shouldn't have to use any added CHE over the Hot Side of the tank to achieve these temperatures at all. At the very most, you may need to add a second bright white Basking Bulb of a much lower wattage over the Cool Side of the tank to get the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature between the necessary 75-80 degrees F. But you won't know whether or not you need to add a second bright-white colored basking Bulb until you get the correct UVB tube and the main, high wattage bright-white colored Basking Bulb set up over the Hot Side of the tank, right alongside each other, and let the tank heat up for at least an hour or two.

I don't know what size of tank/enclosure you have, but just for reference, typically a single 100 watt, bright-white colored Basking Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank will get both the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature within the correct ranges. So if you have a tank that is larger than a 40 Gallon Breeder tank then I would try a 125 watt bright-white colored Basking Bulb or even a 150 watt, but keep in mind that you will most likely need a bright-white Basking Bulb that is of a lower wattage than the CHE you've been using, though your temperatures sound like they are extremely low, which is one of the main reasons, or the main reason that he is sleeping so much and is so lethargic and not eating nearly the amount of food he should be. Babies like this typically eat between 40-60 live insects every single day (smaller than the space between their eyes), so you can see how much of an issue you have going on due to using that CHE. Dragons get ALL of their heat from bright-white light from above, that's it, so that's why you're having such issues.

As far as the type of bright-white colored Basking Bulb you should buy, you can either buy a more expensive, Reptile-Specialty Basking Bulb that you would buy at a Pet Shop (IT MUST ONLY BE WHITE IN COLOR, NO RED, BLUE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLACK, PURPLE, ETC., ONLY WHITE!!!), or you can simply use a regular, household, Halogen Indoor-Flood Bulb, like the kind that you buy at a hardware or department store. They are all bright white in color, so you don't have to worry about that, just make sure that #1) It's Halogen (not LED, that's becoming all you see anymore, but in most US hardware stores like Lowes, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc. they still sell all wattages of Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs), and #2) That it's a Halogen "Flood" Bulb, and not a "Spot" Bulb, because the "Spot" bulbs focus all the light on one spot, while the flood bulbs fill the Hot Side of the tank. You'll pay less for the Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs, but the choice is yours. I'd buy a few different wattages, like a 100 watt, a 125 watt, and a 150 watt, start with the 100 watt and go from there, and then take the other ones back to the store and return them once you figure out what is the appropriate wattage for the temperatures. And just remove the CHE completely.

The second light you need is a strong UVB tube, a long tube that is at the very least 18", but I recommend at least a 22" or 24", depending on the strength you buy. You said you already have a Reptisun T5HO UVB tube, which is exactly what I have used for years and what I always recommend for a Bearded Dragon, but yes, you must order a 10.0 (means 10% UVB light) rather than the 5.0 (only 5% UVB light). The 5.0 UVB tubes are only 5% UVB light, and as such must be much, much closer to your dragon to be effective. Also, they cannot be on top of the mesh lid, as the 5" UVb being blocked by 40% is basically eliminating any UVB light from reaching your dragon at all, and this is problem #2 that you're having.

A Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB light can sit on top of the mesh lid, though at this point, because your dragon has been deprived of pretty much any UVB light at all, I would still mount the 10.0 UVB tube on the underside of the mesh lid by poking 4 holes in the mesh lid, and then using long zip ties, twine, wire, shoelaces, etc. to strap the entire fixture to the underside of the mesh lid. Be sure that you strap it to the underside of the mesh lid that is over the Hot Side of the tank, and put it off center to one side (front or back, but not against the front or back glass, just off center to the front or back) to allow room for the bright white Basking Bulb in a dome lamp fixture to sit on top of the mesh lid right alongside the UVB tube. Then position his Basking Spot/Platform directly underneath both lights, so that he'll get both while basking.

You have a Digital Probe thermometer, that's great, but you have to know how to use it correctly or the readings will no be anywhere near accurate. First of all, both the bright white Basking Bulb and the UVB tube must be turned on and be on for at least 1-2 hours BEFORE you try to take temperature readings, to allow the tank to heat the whole way up. Secondly, you absolutely must allow the Probe to sit on the spot you are measuring for at least 20-30 minutes BEFORE you read the temperature, to allow the Probe to heat the whole way up.

BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE (Within the Hot Side of the tank and directly underneath the center of both the bright-white colored Basking Bulb and the long UVB tube): Between 105-110 degrees F for a baby/juvenile up to about a year old; between 100-105 degrees F for an adult a year old and older (they tend to like it a bit cooler once they hit adulthood); FYI: THE HIGHEST ANY TEMPERATURE SHOULD HIT INSIDE A BEARDED DRAGON'S TANK ANYWHERE IS 110 DEGREES F, ANYTHING HIGHER THAN 110 DEGREES F CAN BE LETHAL.

HOT SIDE AMBIENT (air) TEMPERATURE (The Hot Side of the tank that surrounds the Basking Spot/Platform): Between 88-93 degrees F maximum.

COOL SIDE AMBIENT (air) TEMPERATURE (The Cool Side of the tank that is opposite the Hot Side that contains the Basking Spot/Platform): Between 75-80 degrees F maximum.

TO PROPERLY USE THE DIGITAL PROBE THERMOMETER TO MEASURE TEMPERATURES: After you set up both his lights and allow them to be on for at least 1-2 hours, the first temperature you want to measure is the Basking Spot Surface Temperature. Place the Probe of the thermometer directly on the Basking Spot/Platform, exactly in the spot that your dragon sits/lays while he's basking. You can use the suction cup that comes with the Digital Probe Thermometer to stick the Probe right on the Basking Spot if necessary. Allow the Probe to sit directly on the Basking Spot/Platform for at least 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature and write it down. Then move on to measuring the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature. You do this by sticking the suction cup that comes with the Digital Probe Thermometer to the glass of the tank on the Hot Side of the tank that is surrounding the Basking Spot. Make sure that the suction-cup is attached to the start of the wire, right below the Probe, and then stick the suction-cup to the glass about 2" up from the floor, either to the side or the front glass of the tank on the Hot Side (the Probe will just be hanging in the air while the suction-cup is stuck to the glass). Allow the Probe to sit there for at least 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature and write it down.

If the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature are within at least 10 degrees or less of the ranges I listed above, in either direction, it may be possible to simply raise ONLY the Basking Bulb (if the temperatures are too high) or lower the Basking Bulb (if the temperature are too low) in order to bump these temperature up or down in order to get the Basking Spot Surface Temperature within 105-110 degrees F, and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature within 88-93 degrees F. Remember though, that the Basking Spot/Platform must be within at least 11" of the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube (THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOUR CURRENT 5.0 UVB TUBE, WHICH HAS TO BE WITHIN 3-4" OF HIM TO BE EFFECTIVE, WHICH YOU CANNOT DUE BECAUSE IT CAN CAUSE SEVERE EYE AND NEUROLOGICAL DAMAGE, AS WELL AS BLINDNESS; I AM WRITING THESE TEMPERATURE DIRECTIONS ASSUMING THAT YOU'VE MOUNTED A REPTISUN 10.0 T5HO TO THE UNDERSIDE OF THE MESH LID OVER THE HOT SIDE OF THE TANK, AND RIGHT ALONGSIDE A NEW BRIGHT-WHITE, HALOGEN BASKING BULB). So, while you obviously cannot move the UVb tube because it's strapped to the mesh lid, you can however move the Basking Spot/Platform or use a higher or lower Basking Spot/Platform to alter these 2 temperature ranges, if necessary, AS LONG AS THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM STAYS WITHIN AT LEAST 11" OF THE 10.0 T5HO UVB TUBE.

If however these 2 temperatures are over 10 degrees outside of the correct ranges in either direction, then I suggest not trying to raise or lower either the bright-white Basking Bulb or the Basking Spot/Platform, but rather just going to the next higher or lower wattage of bright-white Basking Bulb, allowing this new Basking Bulb to be on for at least 1-2 hours, and then taking these 2 temperatures again.

Once you get both the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature within 105-110 degrees F and 88-93 degrees F, respectively, then you can move on to measuring the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature. You do this the same way you measured the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature, by attaching the suction-cup to the wire of the thermometer, right below the Probe, and then sticking it to the glass on the opposite Cool Side of the tank, either the glass on the Side or the Front of the Cool Side of the tank, and about 2" up from the floor of the tank. Allow the Probe to hang there for at least 20-30 minutes, and then read the temperature.

It's extremely important that the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature fall between 75-80 degrees F as a maximum, because your dragon always needs an area inside his tank to go that is considerably cooler than the opposite Hot Side of the tank, so that he can cool down whenever he wants to. In most cases, it's much easier to adjust the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature than it is the other 2 temperature zones, because usually once the Basking Spot Surface Temperature and the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperatures are correct, the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature will fall within the correct range of 75-80 degrees, or it will be a bit cooler, but it's very rare that it's hotter than the proper range. If it measure no higher than 83 degrees, then you're okay and can leave it alone, and if it measure no cooler than 70 degrees you're alright and you can leave it alone, as the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature does have a little bit of play in it. However, it's extremely important that the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature not be any higher than 83 degrees F at an absolute max. This usually doesn't happen, but if it does, I suggest trying to just raise the bright-white Basking Bulb up an inch or two, waiting 1-2 hours, then measuring the Cool Side Ambient Temperature again, this will usually correct that problem, if it occurs.

More often than not, if the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature does not fall between 75-80 degrees, it is going to fall lower. If this temperature ends up being lower than 70 degrees, you'll need to add a second bright-white Basking Bulb over the Cool Side of the tank, either in another Dome Lamp Fixture that will sit on top of the mesh lid over the Cool Side of the tank, or in a Clamp Lamp Fixture that will clamp to the edge of the lid and be pointed over the Cool Side of the tank. Keep in mind that you're not going to need a very high wattage Basking Bulb over the Cool Side, no where near the wattage of your main Basking Bulb. For example, let's say your Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature ends up measuring at 60 degrees, your best bet is to start off with a 25 watt bright-white Basking Bulb added over the Cool Side of the tank, allow it to be on over the Cool Side for at least 1-2 hours, then again remeasure the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature, and see if it falls over 70 degrees but lower than 83 degrees. If it does, you're done (and most likely it will). It's all relative to how many degrees you need to raise the temperature, but a good rule of thumb is "Always start with the lowest available wattage and go up", and "Always get a lower wattage, bright-white colored Basking Bulb than you think you'll need". We always tend to think we need more wattage than we do.

Again, please completely remove that CHE, it's not the way that a Bearded Dragon, being a Desert Reptile that comes naturally from bright, intense, natural sunlight all day long, needs or wants to get his heat, and this is what is causing all of his lethargy and your extremely low temperatures. Bright white colored light and strong, intense UVb light is what he needs.

Be sure to replace your 10.0 T5HO UVB tube once every 10 months to a year at most, as that is when all of the UVB light will have decayed. And please be sure to leave both his bright-white colored basking bulb and his UVB tube on every single day for at least a 13-14 hour photoperiod.

Also, never feed your dragon in the morning before both of his lights have been on for at least 1-2 hours, and never feed him at night without allowing both his lights to remain on after he eats for at least 1-2 hours. This will allow his body to remain at the proper temperatures to digest the food that he eats, and to absorb enough adequate UVb light to absorb and process (use) the nutrition from the food that he digest.


Hi, all of that information is GOLD. Thank you so much. I managed to get himself back up. First, I took the Basking spot to the correct temperature (106 F) then I did set the tube on the inside of the mesh, and there's a branch at exactly 11" from the tube underneath, the other stuffs are about 12'' far.

About the Temperatures i'm currently getting :
Basking spot : 106 F
Hot Side : 85-86 F
Cool Side : 78-81 F

First I moved the basking spot to be in the correct temps (105-110F) and he went there immediately and opened his mouth for body regulation. Tho he wasn't really hungry, a bit more tho.
After, he started moving and eating extremely fast when the UVB was INSIDE and upgraded to 10.0. (Like instantly he started to be hungry and he started to hunt) He looks good ATM. He eats plenty of those small crickets. (Gotta go buy some more real soon lmao) I also started giving better lettuce (Not lettuce but something with calcium from the website in one of the comment above.)

I'm currently still using the CHE, but I will be changing it to be the correct type.

Thank you so much. He's getting really good.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby micuit » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:12 pm

BTW Another question, My Terrarium is Glass, on the floor I have added vinyl (Seems to keep a bit more heat then paper towels).
The dimensions are 39'' X 20'' X 20'' (Exterior)
I'm currently using a CHE 150W ON the mesh lid (I still want my new spot to be there) (Check the temps above for it in the tank)

What type should be the best considering I have a 10.0 UVB (34'') mounted on the inside? A PowerSun? If yes, how many Watts should I need? 100W?
SolarGlow? 125W?
http://boutique.safaripetcenter.com/en/reptiles/lightbulbs/exo-terra-solar-glo-125.html
Or Something like this?
http://boutique.safaripetcenter.com/en/reptiles/lightbulbs/exo-terra-sun-glo-548.html
(It's a pet shop near me in Canada)

And for that spot you say is better, which Dome for it? A deep dome? A large dome?

Thank you.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby EllenD » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:57 am

A deep dome works best, and can be set right on top of the mesh lid. They are a bit more narrow and leave a bit more room for the UVB tube alongside them.

A Powersun is an MVB light, meaning it emits both UVB and heat, which isn't necessary if you got the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube. You just need a regular, bright white basking bulb, like the EXO Terra at the bottom, or a ZooMed Intense Basking Spot one. Most of us only use the halogen indoor flood bulbs, like you buy at Lowes.

I'm glad he's better, their lighting and temps make all the difference in the world.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby 3magpie3 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:30 am

EllenD wrote:Let's simplify this for you. Your main issue is that you're not using a bright white Basking Bulb but rather a CHE. This is very, very bad for a desert reptile, as your main goal is to replicate natural sunlight as closely as possible. A CHE should only be used if a nighttime heat source is required, and 99% of the time it is not require at all, as the Australian Desert is very, very cool and Pitch black at night. So as long as the temperature at nighttime is at least 65 degrees F, which it most likely is with no heat source, then you need no nighttime heat source at all.

...............

Also, never feed your dragon in the morning before both of his lights have been on for at least 1-2 hours, and never feed him at night without allowing both his lights to remain on after he eats for at least 1-2 hours. This will allow his body to remain at the proper temperatures to digest the food that he eats, and to absorb enough adequate UVb light to absorb and process (use) the nutrition from the food that he digest.


This isn't my post but I wanted to thank you for the excellent, detailed information in this post. I am bookmarking for future reference when I get a dragon. I've been doing a lot of reading and researching, and there is a lot of info out there about temps, but I've never seen this step-by-step instructional on how to adjust temperatures like this. There were also small gems mixed in that I wasn't aware of (like the 11" rule) THANK YOU.
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby EllenD » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:27 am

3magpie3 wrote:
EllenD wrote:Let's simplify this for you. Your main issue is that you're not using a bright white Basking Bulb but rather a CHE. This is very, very bad for a desert reptile, as your main goal is to replicate natural sunlight as closely as possible. A CHE should only be used if a nighttime heat source is required, and 99% of the time it is not require at all, as the Australian Desert is very, very cool and Pitch black at night. So as long as the temperature at nighttime is at least 65 degrees F, which it most likely is with no heat source, then you need no nighttime heat source at all.

...............


Also, never feed your dragon in the morning before both of his lights have been on for at least 1-2 hours, and never feed him at night without allowing both his lights to remain on after he eats for at least 1-2 hours. This will allow his body to remain at the proper temperatures to digest the food that he eats, and to absorb enough adequate UVb light to absorb and process (use) the nutrition from the food that he digest.


This isn't my post but I wanted to thank you for the excellent, detailed information in this post. I am bookmarking for future reference when I get a dragon. I've been doing a lot of reading and researching, and there is a lot of info out there about temps, but I've never seen this step-by-step instructional on how to adjust temperatures like this. There were also small gems mixed in that I wasn't aware of (like the 11" rule) THANK YOU.


Thank you so much for saying that, I try my best to explain things in detail so that people fully understand how to use the probe thermometers, so they know the difference between a T8 and a T5 UVB tube, etc. I don't know whatever happened to companies who sell products hiring "Technical Writers" to write their instructions for them, but when you buy a digital probe thermometer it says nothing about how to properly use it, and when you buy a UVB light it says very little about distance, obstructions, etc. Even Zilla puts a clear plastic cover over their tube light fixtures and doesn't even mention that if you're using it to house a UVB tube you must remove the cover because it's blocking pretty much all the UVB light emitted by the tube!

So I try to be detailed and answer any questions in detail, I've been told not to do this, that it "scares people away" and "they won't read it anyway and will just skip it completely", but in my experience that's not true at all. In my experience most people with a sick dragon want answers, and there are so many variables and things that can just be off minutely and still cause major issues to them, that it's best to map it all out for people so we can catch what the issue is and get it corrected.

So thank you for writing that compliment, that means a lot to me.
"Dance like nobody's watching..."
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby 3magpie3 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:56 am

Well you are clear AND you use paragraphs LOL. Sometimes people post just a huge blob of text and I can't handle that visually.

Sometimes a short reply is enough, sometimes more detail is warranted! If people don't want the detail they can skim and get what they want from it.

It seems that most info out there in general petstores just straight up sucks. It's a shame that the pet equipment companies AND that Petsmart/Petco aren't more invested in providing at least better husbandry information. It's kind of crazy, actually. Think about how many sick/unhappy beardies there were before the internet was a thing! It hurts to even think about that. :(
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby EllenD » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:35 am

3magpie3 wrote:Well you are clear AND you use paragraphs LOL. Sometimes people post just a huge blob of text and I can't handle that visually.

Sometimes a short reply is enough, sometimes more detail is warranted! If people don't want the detail they can skim and get what they want from it.

It seems that most info out there in general petstores just straight up sucks. It's a shame that the pet equipment companies AND that Petsmart/Petco aren't more invested in providing at least better husbandry information. It's kind of crazy, actually. Think about how many sick/unhappy beardies there were before the internet was a thing! It hurts to even think about that. :(


Very Well Said!!!!! It is extremely crazy, and actually dangerous and completely irresponsible. I personally know the "Animal Manager" at my local Petco, so I get a lot of "inside information" about how Petco (and PetSmart as well, they are pretty much mirrored-companies that are run the same way, get their animals from the same vendors, etc.), and the bottom line to the problem, in my opinion and in her opinion as a Petco manager, is that neither of these corporations provides ANY TRAINING OR EDUCATION AT ALL TO THEIR EMPLOYEES!!! Neither store has any "specialist" employees, unless a particular store happens to have an employee that has a particular type of pet and has more knowledge about that type of pet than anyone else (including the managers). Then this person is automatically "our bird specialist" or "our fish specialist". The problem with this is that then every employee in that particular store follows everything that supposedly "experienced" employee says, without the managers or anyone else doing any research to find out if anything that this person is telling them is true or not! It's just messed up.

The other issue is that EVERYTHING that these two major retail stores do, as well as all other retail stores, is totally and completely dictated by MONEY and PROFIT. That's to be expected with retail chains, or any store for that matter, even the smaller, independently owner shops have to run their businesses based on maximizing profit, that's to be expected...but these are no grocery stores, or hardware stores, or car dealerships, or furniture or jewelry stores, these are stores that care for and sell living creatures, and who are supposed to be able to properly educate their customers who they are selling these living creatures to in how to care for them. How can they educated their customers when they themselves are given zero education? Do they make it up as they go along? Do they hurry up and Google a customer's question on their phone?

I have a strong education in Medicine, Anatomy, Physiology, Pharmacology, Biology, Microbiology, etc., but to pay the bills I've been working in the Car Business since I was 23 years old (I'm now 38). I started as a salesperson, then progressed into doing sales and finance/leasing, then eventually became a very successful Sales Manager/Finance Director. Here is what not only do I not understand at all, but also what makes me both sick and scared: MOST CAR SALESPEOPLE ARE GIVEN EXTENSIVE EDUCATION AND TRAINING ON A DAILY BASIS, STARTING FROM DAY ONE!!! Especially if you work for a Car Dealership that owns a New-Car Franchise. In order to sell ANY New Cars, you have to become Certified as a Salesperson, a Finance Manager, a Sales Manager, a Service Technician, a Service Manager, etc. with every New Car Brand. They all have their own Certification programs that consist of a combination of tons and tons of online classes, conference call and Skype live classes, and traveling all over the country to go to a minimum amount of courses per year. You have to do your Certification every single year, and keep it up to date, or you cannot sell that brand's cars New, only Used Cars. And the Automotive Companies keep track of each Dealership's employees and where they are with there certifications, and if a dealership doesn't have a certain number of their salespeople, finance managers, sales managers, etc. up to date on their certifications (any more ALL sales employees have to be Certified at all times with most Car Companies) the Car Companies will not pay that Dealership any stair-step money for new car units sold per month, any advertising money or reimbursement, they'll up their IRG Advertising Fees, and some even stop paying them the Hold-Back on every New Car sold...and that's not even talking about the in-dealership sales training and Used Car sales training such as daily walk-arounds, etc.

So why do people selling cars have to be constantly educated, trained, and tested on the new vehicles they are selling, but people selling LIVING CREATURES don't have to have any education or training at all about the animals/pets that they sell?
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Re: New Baby (about 8-10 weeks) need help he keeps sleeping

Postby 3magpie3 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:17 pm

It is mind-blowing! Even if they had a knowledgable person put together a "cheat sheet" on proper care of these animals (and I bet they could get volunteers even if they're worried about money) so that employees would be able to look at that to educate people, that would be better than what happens now.

Honestly, I cannot look at the pets at the box stores, it makes me too sad. Even the fish are often in gross conditions and you hear about people getting misinformation on fish ALL the time. Now there were a couple of individual Petco/smart stores in Portland, where I used to live, that had clean tanks and healthy fish but that is definitely an exception. :/
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