Still sick or past the point of no return?

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I made a post a few weeks ago about my baby Sobek (here it is, so I don't have to go through and type everything down again, everything in this post is current: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=238537).

He has gotten worse. He's eating about 6-9 ml of baby food slurry a day, but he will not walk or climb and his back legs are pretty much immobile. His front do a bit better, but I think one of his arms may have a fracture as he seems to limp on it and tuck it to his side. After feeding him today I put him in a little tub of shallow warm water and pedialyte and he just went limp, his nose went completely underwater and he made no effort to get up. I took him out of course and he was almost completely limp. He has a tiny bit of strength left, but despite his eating the baby food, the last time he was at the vet he had lost 3 grams. I don't know if this is the end or if he'll make a comeback, but I'd like you guys' thoughts.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Awe, poor little guy, has he been to a Reptile Vet? It doesn't sound like a fracture, it sounds like severe MBD and calcium deficiency. It's good you're getting food/hydration into him, but I'd stop the "soaks" in water/Pedialyte completely, it's not giving him hydration and is only stressful. He needs all of his fluids through his mouth, they absorb no hydration through their vents or skin, and this could be very dangerous for him. Try additional hydration by mouth several times throughout the day with the Pedialyte through a dropper/syringe.

What is your UVB set up as of right now?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
OK I waded through the other thread.

I am concerned that you don't seem to have taken this very sick dragon to a reptile vet , and this have been going on and you've been flying blind for weeks without having a vet's diagnosis or any tests done by a vet , the result is the underlying cause of this has progressed and the poor beardie is getting worse and not better.

Seems that tweeking lighting and heating has proven not the be root course, and home remedies are getting now where , if they were he'd be showing signs of improvement by now IMO.

Time to bite the bullet and take him to be thoroughly examined by an experienced reptile vet , it's become a matter of urgency whereas if you had taken him to a vet sooner , the chances are the vet would have him on a treatment plan and he may have started to improve by now.

Why haven't you taken your pet to nearest reptile vet ?
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
He has been to a reputable reptile vet a couple of times and she gave me 10ml of calcium glubionate. He's been up and down severity wise, honestly though he has never been in top shape since I bought him. I've been trying my best to do better than the pet store though.

My UVB setup is a 22" Reptisun T8 tube in a 24" fixture that rests unobstructed on top of an open enclosure 6" away from his basking spot with a basking light around 10" away from the basking spot, and he doesn't have the strength to move or climb up to bask, so I just place him there after he's done feeding. Basking temps stay between 97-100
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
kingofnobbys":1s01pkea said:
OK I waded through the other thread.

I am concerned that you don't seem to have taken this very sick dragon to a reptile vet , and this have been going on and you've been flying blind for weeks without having a vet's diagnosis or any tests done by a vet , the result is the underlying cause of this has progressed and the poor beardie is getting worse and not better.

Time to bite the bullet and take him to be thoroughly examined by an experienced reptile vet , it's become a matter of urgency whereas if you had taken him to a vet sooner , the chances are the vet would have him on a treatment plan and he may have started to improve by now.

Why haven't you taken your pet to nearest reptile vet ?

He has been three times over the course of a month.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
spinyheliantheae":y39tv2bl said:
kingofnobbys":y39tv2bl said:
OK I waded through the other thread.

I am concerned that you don't seem to have taken this very sick dragon to a reptile vet , and this have been going on and you've been flying blind for weeks without having a vet's diagnosis or any tests done by a vet , the result is the underlying cause of this has progressed and the poor beardie is getting worse and not better.

Time to bite the bullet and take him to be thoroughly examined by an experienced reptile vet , it's become a matter of urgency whereas if you had taken him to a vet sooner , the chances are the vet would have him on a treatment plan and he may have started to improve by now.

Why haven't you taken your pet to nearest reptile vet ?

He has been three times over the course of a month.

What tests were done by the vet and what was the vets considered opinion on what is wrong with him.

How is the liquid calcium dosed ?

Proper vet grade liquid calcium doseage is calculated by the body weight of the reptile and given in controlled doses orally by syringe .
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
The suspended calcium is dosed at .02 ml a day and is supplemented with powder calcium and a multivitamin with his slurry. Her opinion was MBD and dehydration, and she told me to continue with the slurry feeding and see if he improves. No tests were performed as she works in a clinic that deals with dogs and cats 99% of the time and she doesn't have a lot of the proper equipment needed. I would have to bring any stool samples to the city, and I do not have the means of transportation to do so (I'm a college student and do not own a car). I've tried every way I could to get a sample sent out but for some reason I can't send mail from my apartment yet?? I will bring him in for an emergency visit as soon as I can.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Okay, so no "Reptile Specialist" has seen him, but a general vet...I agree with the MBD diagnosis, but something isn't right here, it could very well be parasites, quite a few babies come home from pet shops and breeders with parasites, and if they are not treated they just continue to multiply.

If he happens to have a parasite that is hosting on his nutrition, like a high count of Pinworms, they have been and continue to eat every bit of food/nutrition he's taking in. That's the issue. So without a simple fecal test you have no way of knowing what parasites and/or protozoan infection he has, what counts/loads they are in, or what medication to use to treat them. And if it's a worm that is stealing away every bit of nutrition from his GI tract before he is able to metabolize it, he's not going to make it much longer, as small as he is. So you need to in the very least drop off a fresh fecal sample to that general vet you already saw (who by the way should have already done this, she is very capable of doing a Gram Stain and a Fecal Float Test, she does them on dogs and cats every day), and then seeing what parasite and/or bacteria/protozoa are in moderate to high counts and prescribing the correct meds (DO NOT ALLOW THE VET TO TREAT HIM FOR LOW COUNTS OF COCCIDIA, IT'S NOT NECESSARY AND WILL ONLY MAKE HIM MUCH WORSE, ONLY MODERATE TO HIGH COUNTS NEED TO BE TREATED).

If he tests positive for moderate to high counts of Coccidia, he should be put on Toltrazuril for it, and for Pinworms/other worms in moderate to high counts he should be give Panacur... DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO PUT HIM ON ANY SULFA DRUGS OR IVERMECTIN!!!!

In the meantime, as I already mentioned, no more soaking him, he could aspirate water into his lungs that way, and it's not hydrating him at all, only stressing him out. They must take in AL of their hydration through their mouths, so in addition to feeding him the Oxbow Critical Care or the slurries you're feeding him, he needs to be given the Pedialyte (better than water at this point) by either dripping it on his snout and letting him lick it off, or by force-feeding it to him, you're at that point now that you need to force it, several times a day. Do not waste Pedialyte by putting it in a "bath" for him to sit in, as unless he's actively drinking it through his mouth in the bath he's not getting any of it in him at all.

Are you using a Digital Probe Thermometer or a Temp Gun to measure his Basking Spot Surface Temp? Or are you just reading the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature off of a stick-on thermometer that is stuck to the glass on the Hot Side of the tank?

I'm asking because a baby/juvenile Bearded Dragon normally, when healthy, needs a Basking Spot Surface Temperature between 105-110 degrees (110 degrees is the hottest temp that he should have anywhere in his tank at any time, over that is lethal, but babies and juveniles under a year old need to be basking on a Surface Temperature between 105-110 degrees for at least 13-14 hours a day, and the Basking spot/platform that you use as his Basking spot needs to be directly under both the UVB tube and his bright white basking light, so they need to be right alongside each other, so he gets both at the same time while basking). Your Basking Spot Temp of 95-100 is not nearly high enough, especially when he's sick. So please, lower the bright white basking bulb down a few inches towards him (DO NOT MOVE THE UVB TUBE AWAY OR HIS BASKING SPOT AWAY, ONLY MOVE THE BASKING BULB CLOSER TO HIM TO BUMP UP HIS BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE). Then wait about an hour for the temperature to heat up, and remeasure the Basking Spot Surface temperature with either a Temp Gun or a Digital Probe Thermometer, allowing the Probe to sit right on the basking spot/platform for at least 20-30 minutes before reading it, so it heats up to the actual correct temperature. Keep moving the bright white basking bulb down towards the basking spot/platform until you get the Probe to read between 105-110 max.

Also, you say your UVB tube is a Reptisun 10.0 T8, but you say it's 22" long and in a 24" fixture, so that would be a T5 UVb tube...if you did actually order the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVb tube and a fixture for it that's great, but make sure that's what you got, if the tube is actually 24" then it's the T8. but if it's only 22" then it's the T5HO, which is what he needs right now.

Please, call up that general vet you already saw and drop off a fecal sample ASAP. He really does need to see a very experienced Reptile Specialist vet and not a general vet or an "exotics" vet at this point, this has been going on way too long and he's not going to make it much longer this way, but that general vet can certainly do fecal tests and prescribe medications...

I suggest however that before you give him the meds prescribed by a general or exotics vet you check here first and let us know what they gave him, because a young baby was just kill a month or so ago by getting a Sulfa Drug prescribed for Coccidia by an "exotics" vet with no idea what they were doing, so if it's not a Reptile Specialist, it's always better to check first...
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
He seems to be getting *slightly* better than this morning. He's basking on the dash of my boyfriend's car right now and his head is tilted up and he seems much more alert and responsive. The general vet closest to me has an "exotics" veterinarian, but she has a pretty good track record with reptiles. She has given me some misinformation (water soaks), but other than that she is genuinely concerned with him and is doing the best she can. I have a stool sample and will get that checked out today.
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
EllenD":1y2minnz said:
Okay, so no "Reptile Specialist" has seen him, but a general vet...I agree with the MBD diagnosis, but something isn't right here, it could very well be parasites, quite a few babies come home from pet shops and breeders with parasites, and if they are not treated they just continue to multiply.

If he happens to have a parasite that is hosting on his nutrition, like a high count of Pinworms, they have been and continue to eat every bit of food/nutrition he's taking in. That's the issue. So without a simple fecal test you have no way of knowing what parasites and/or protozoan infection he has, what counts/loads they are in, or what medication to use to treat them. And if it's a worm that is stealing away every bit of nutrition from his GI tract before he is able to metabolize it, he's not going to make it much longer, as small as he is. So you need to in the very least drop off a fresh fecal sample to that general vet you already saw (who by the way should have already done this, she is very capable of doing a Gram Stain and a Fecal Float Test, she does them on dogs and cats every day), and then seeing what parasite and/or bacteria/protozoa are in moderate to high counts and prescribing the correct meds (DO NOT ALLOW THE VET TO TREAT HIM FOR LOW COUNTS OF COCCIDIA, IT'S NOT NECESSARY AND WILL ONLY MAKE HIM MUCH WORSE, ONLY MODERATE TO HIGH COUNTS NEED TO BE TREATED).

If he tests positive for moderate to high counts of Coccidia, he should be put on Toltrazuril for it, and for Pinworms/other worms in moderate to high counts he should be give Panacur... DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO PUT HIM ON ANY SULFA DRUGS OR IVERMECTIN!!!!

In the meantime, as I already mentioned, no more soaking him, he could aspirate water into his lungs that way, and it's not hydrating him at all, only stressing him out. They must take in AL of their hydration through their mouths, so in addition to feeding him the Oxbow Critical Care or the slurries you're feeding him, he needs to be given the Pedialyte (better than water at this point) by either dripping it on his snout and letting him lick it off, or by force-feeding it to him, you're at that point now that you need to force it, several times a day. Do not waste Pedialyte by putting it in a "bath" for him to sit in, as unless he's actively drinking it through his mouth in the bath he's not getting any of it in him at all.

Are you using a Digital Probe Thermometer or a Temp Gun to measure his Basking Spot Surface Temp? Or are you just reading the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature off of a stick-on thermometer that is stuck to the glass on the Hot Side of the tank?

I'm asking because a baby/juvenile Bearded Dragon normally, when healthy, needs a Basking Spot Surface Temperature between 105-110 degrees (110 degrees is the hottest temp that he should have anywhere in his tank at any time, over that is lethal, but babies and juveniles under a year old need to be basking on a Surface Temperature between 105-110 degrees for at least 13-14 hours a day, and the Basking spot/platform that you use as his Basking spot needs to be directly under both the UVB tube and his bright white basking light, so they need to be right alongside each other, so he gets both at the same time while basking). Your Basking Spot Temp of 95-100 is not nearly high enough, especially when he's sick. So please, lower the bright white basking bulb down a few inches towards him (DO NOT MOVE THE UVB TUBE AWAY OR HIS BASKING SPOT AWAY, ONLY MOVE THE BASKING BULB CLOSER TO HIM TO BUMP UP HIS BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE). Then wait about an hour for the temperature to heat up, and remeasure the Basking Spot Surface temperature with either a Temp Gun or a Digital Probe Thermometer, allowing the Probe to sit right on the basking spot/platform for at least 20-30 minutes before reading it, so it heats up to the actual correct temperature. Keep moving the bright white basking bulb down towards the basking spot/platform until you get the Probe to read between 105-110 max.

Also, you say your UVB tube is a Reptisun 10.0 T8, but you say it's 22" long and in a 24" fixture, so that would be a T5 UVb tube...if you did actually order the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVb tube and a fixture for it that's great, but make sure that's what you got, if the tube is actually 24" then it's the T8. but if it's only 22" then it's the T5HO, which is what he needs right now.

Please, call up that general vet you already saw and drop off a fecal sample ASAP. He really does need to see a very experienced Reptile Specialist vet and not a general vet or an "exotics" vet at this point, this has been going on way too long and he's not going to make it much longer this way, but that general vet can certainly do fecal tests and prescribe medications...

I suggest however that before you give him the meds prescribed by a general or exotics vet you check here first and let us know what they gave him, because a young baby was just kill a month or so ago by getting a Sulfa Drug prescribed for Coccidia by an "exotics" vet with no idea what they were doing, so if it's not a Reptile Specialist, it's always better to check first...

It's a T8, I will be ordering a T5HO tube after I put some money on my card today. Force feeding is a bit difficult, he won't open his mouth and has associated the syringe with discomfort so he squirms if I touch it to his mouth. I think parasites is a pretty good bet but I'm definitely going to ask the vet about it. I'll post what I'm prescribed when I get it.
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
Vet wants to prescribe Ceftazidime injections without testing for infections, so I'm getting a critical care diet from her but no meds today as he hasn't given me a fresh stool sample yet.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Watch letting him bask on the dash of a car, it can heat up quickly, plus, just as an FYI in case you weren't aware of this, no UVB light can pass through glass or plastic, so when they sit inside a window they get no UVB light at all. A lot of people have thought that allowing them to bask inside a window will provide UVB light, and it provides none at all.

As far as force-feeding, yes it's a pain and they don't willingly open their mouths, but it's necessary, and here's the easiest way I've found to do it. Fill your oral syringe (it needs to have a tip on it, just an FYI), and then put him on a flat surface on all 4's in front of you, hold him with one hand and have the oral syringe in the other...The insert the tip of the syringe under his upper lip only, on the side of his head/mouth, back by his ear. Then slowing slide the tip of the syringe up the side of mouth, towards the tip of his snout, keeping the tip of the syringe underneath his upper lip the entire time. For whatever reason, I don't know why, but they all will automatically open up their mouths once the tip of the syringe nears the tip of the snout. When he opens up his mouth, be sure to get the tip of the syringe in between his teeth so he can't close his mouth. Then push small amounts of the slurries/Critical Care into his mouth, he'll chew/swallow them, then push a little more, etc. If for whatever reason the tip of the syringe comes out from between his teeth, just start over by putting the tip of the syringe under his upper lip again, back by his ear, and again slide it up the side of his mouth towards the tip of his snout, until he again opens up his mouth.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Ceft injections for what? That's an antibiotic, for a bacterial infection...did they run any tests, like cultures, to actually diagnose an infection? If not, do not give him any antibiotics for no reason, or "Just in Case", or whatever the vet said. You need diagnostics run, like the fecal test, and antibiotics will not help a parasitic infection, only specific bacterial infections.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I hope you got that in time, he doesn't need an antibiotic without knowing whether or not he actually has a bacterial infection, and the only way to know that is to do cultures and send them out. So no, don't pay for antibiotic injections for no reason, they may only make him worse, in addition to not helping the issue at hand. He needs a fecal test done, obviously, and if the vet suspects some type of specific infection and they can tell you what type of infection it is, then they need to take cultures to actually diagnose it.

I would just request the fecal testing for now, and go from there. Stand your ground, because they do this, they just willy nilly prescribe antibiotics for no reason at all, and if it turns out to be parasites, then he'll have gotten antibiotic injections for no reason at all, you'll have paid for them for no reason at all, and they'll most likely stop him from having any appetite and are hard on his kidneys for no reason at all...just get the fecal testing done and go from there...
 

spinyheliantheae

Member
Original Poster
That's what I said! No tests have been run and she wants to put him on injections. I'll stick to the critical care diet and bring in a stool sample when I get one, only when it's been tested will I buy meds
 
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