Is my friend neglectful?

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Hello, I hope this is the right place to post this but I'm getting increasingly concerned that my friend isn't looking after her bearded dragon. I have already made her change from sand to a soft mat because I know that is bad but I have no reptiles or pets myself so there's only so much I can be sure on.
It's back legs do not work at all which I believe is from impaction but it's been a few months since she got rid of the sand now. (For the record I do believe she isn't intentionally hurting her I just think she was a bit stupid and has done no research which is almost as bad).
Every time I go round there's dried up carrot and green leaf veg dusted in the calcium powder but the beardie doesn't eat the veggies. I have seen her feed the girl I think meal worms which she will quickly crawl over too and munch down and I know she has fed crickets at times also but only one at a time.
My boyfriend who house shares with her was watching pixel recently and we gave her a couple of the insects because she wouldn't eat anything else but I didn't think they should eat veggies anyway? As I say I don't know.
I also think the viv is too small but I have nagged her about that a lot and she is working on a bigger one.
Sorry if everything is fine it just makes me so sad to see that poor beardie.
Thanks!
Just for any extra info we are 23 and live on our own (I don't live with her) so she's not relying on anyone else like parents to help her get supplies.
Thank you again.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, it's nice that ypu care about this poor dragon and want to help. It may be a combination of impaction and mostly lack of proper uvb bulbs. Many stores sell useless or weak uvb bulbs and some new reptile owners actually mistake a basking bulb for a uvb bulb so the dragon gets no uvb at all.

Without a strong uvb bulb the dragon can not assimilate barely any calcium even if the powder is given on it's food, so then it develops MBD. [ metabolic bone disease ]

Can you post pics here of the set up, and see what exact type + brand of lights it has ? Here's how to post pics :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them
 

JellyfishQueen

Member
Original Poster
I'll get a picture next time I'm round and she isn't downstairs. As I said my boyfriend lives there so it's not weird if I go round but she might ask me to not take pictures if she is there.
I'll do this as soon as possible and if it turns out that the set up is wrong I could get her the right stuff for an early Christmas present? So she'll get the message in a nice way?
Thank you so much for your response! Hopefully we can get the little dragon happy again!
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
You're welcome. :) And that would be very generous of you to get the needed items ! Please inquire here about the best bulbs to get, some are MUCH better than others and most people here can advise which bulbs to get.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Yes - your friend needs to either surrender the neglected dragon to a rescuer or to you .

Seems to me this person will not change their husbandry and has no idea how to care for a bearded dragon and will likely dismiss anything you say and the result ultimately will not be good for the dragon if this situation is allowed to persist much longer.
You are not doing this person any favours by buying the lights and gear they should have supplied and declined to , I see this kind of problem here a lot , this person should not be allowed to have a bearded dragon as a pet and I question why they bought it if they can't be bothered to provide proper care , lighting and housing for it, and the result is a miserable dragon who has a very poor quality of life and dies .

The uptake of this is if they cant afford or simply refuse to provide proper housing and care and lighting and food for their pet they should not have the pet - PERIOD. A pet rock would be more suitable to this person.

You should offer to take the dragon off their hands.
 

JellyfishQueen

Member
Original Poster
Hello,
I do understand what you are saying my only problem with that is I'm worried if I come over confrontational with them they will either not learn anything or fall out with me both of which would be worse for the poor dragon. Which is all of our main concern. Also if you don't try to educate someone and they just think you're being mean she could easy get another one and repeat what's going on.
After speaking with her about the substrate and showing her some information she did change it so I feel like helping her be the best she can be is in the best interest for the beardie.
Not that I am defending anything. Also I am in no way experienced with Bearded Dragons which is why I am looking for some advice?
I hope that makes sense? I hope I haven't upset you. I can guarantee that both myself and my partner will do our best to help her. Because right now I believe she has made mistakes out of ignorance and being misinformed by the pet store rather than out of Meaness?
If after uploading pics and then discussing this with her and changing the lights and monitoring food etc. She doesn't change her behaviour I promise you I will do everything I can to keep this bearded dragon safe and happy.l because that's all I want and also for it to not happen again.
Thank you very much for your opinion though I completely understand where you are coming from I just really don't want any mistakes to be repeated.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Jelly, you're doing a great thing....don't apologize that you upset someone here, you have the right to post here without a lecture or negative view of what you're doing.

We are ALL concerned when we read a post like this but instead of commending someone like you for doing a good deed some people feel like they have the authority tell a concerned party to take the dragon away. If the owner can make some changes that are needed after being brought to their attention that's good thing. If they can't and there is a rescue org. nearby you might suggest that, but not all " rescues" are real rescues either and the owners would want to see that the dragon was not put in a worse situation.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
First of all, thank you for caring so much and showing concern for your friend's beardie. All of us here are very passionate about our dragons and the rest of our pets, they are members of our own families and we do get a lot of people that come on here for emergency help due to total neglect and/or abuse of their dragons, and only when their dragons are on death's door do they finally ask for help. Unfortunately it's typically too late at that point and there's not much they can do to help. Bearded dragons are desert reptiles, and as such their lives literally depend on adequate strength and amount of UVB and UVA light daily, living in proper temperatures daily, and eating appropriate live insects and greens daily with adequate calcium supplementation, and if they live in improper temperatures, under improper lighting, and being fed improper diets with improper calcium and multivitamin supplementation for very long, their bodies cannot function and they die. The thing you must remember with bearded dragons though is that there is a distinct difference between NEGLECT/ABUSE and just POOR ADVICE from pet shops and actually often times from breeders and exotics vets. There are people who come on here that have unlimited money to spend on their dragons set-ups, lighting, and diets, and still their dragons are very ill and die not because they were neglectful owners, but because they were given horrible and inaccurate advice by pet shop employees, breeders, and vets. They are told to buy UVB and basking lights that are totally inadequate for a dragon, or they are actually advised that they "don't need a UVB light at all", or they are told that they can feed their new month-old baby dragon commercial pellets and lettuce or freeze-dried insects. It's terrible but this happens every day, multiple times a day. So it's quite possible that your friend has been given terrible diet and temperature advice and lighting recommendations, and these are the reasons her dragon is now sick.

I have found that the best way to approach this situation with a friend, family member, or even a neighbor who you are "dragon-sitting" for (this happens all the time and the person comes on the forums to ask questions after they see the way their neighbors are keeping the dragon they are watching while they are on vacation) is to do the research yourself, find out what your friend is doing that is wrong as far as her UVB and basking lights, her thermometers and her temperature zones, and her diet and supplementation, and then once you figure out what parts of her husbandry and diet needs corrected you can make a list and go over it with her. If you're able to purchase some things for her as Christmas gifts that's also an awesome way to help her and her dragon out. Telling her that you're thinking about getting a bearded dragon yourself so you started doing research on your own, and you have now learned that because beardies are desert reptiles they need very specific UVB lighting that is set-up in a specific way, they need a proper Digital thermometer in order to set up a proper temperature gradient across their enclosures, and they need a certain amount of live insects and fresh greens every day, depending on their age, and that a lot of live insects, such as mealworms, are not at all good to feed a bearded dragon as a daily, staple feeder insect because they cause impactions, etc. This way you don't offend your friend and you're able to educate her and yourself at the same time.

First of all, how old is your friend's dragon? If you know how long she's had him or where she bought him from this will usually tell you his age. For example, if she bought him at a Petco or PetSmart, then he was most likely a very young baby when she brought him home, usually the baby dragons they sell at Petco and PetSmart are around a month or so old. The reason his age is important is that a proper diet for him is totally dependent on how old he is. Dragons that are a year old or younger need pretty much an entire diet made up of tons of healthy, live insects every single day, several times throughout the day, and little to no greens or veggies. Although they should be offered fresh greens every day, most dragons under a year or so old will not eat them at all, or they only pick at them. This is because they do 90% of their growing and developing during their first year of life, and so they need a ton of live insect protein every single day in order to grow to a healthy size and develop appropriately. Unfortunately mealworms are not a live insect that should be fed as a daily staple insect to dragons, they are mostly hard, chitlin shell and fat, and if your friend's dragon does have an impaction that is causing the paralysis in his back legs, it's probably at least partly due to the mealworm shells causing an impaction that is pressing on his spinal column. Crickets, roaches, silkworms, and BSFL/Phoenix Worms/Calciworms/Nutrigrubs/Reptiworms (all the same thing) are the healthiest daily live feeder insects for dragons.

The other likely cause of his paralyzed back legs (and any stunted growth) is Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD), which is caused by not getting 13-14 hours a day of adequate UVB light. This lack of adequate daily UVB light results in the dragon not being able to absorb or process any of the calcium (or any other nutrition) from their food or supplements, and as a result their bone density weakens, and due to other nutritional deficiencies they have problems with muscle use, nerve issues, etc. See if you can find out what Brand/Model/Type (long tube, compact, or coil) of UVB light your friend has, and if it's mounted inside the tank or on top of a mesh lid. Also find out what type and specifically what wattage and color her Basking Light is as well. And how many hours a day she leaves both lights on.

Also, how long is the dragon about from the tip of his snout to the very end of his tail? Is he at all skinny or is he a good, healthy looking size? Photos definitely will help...also, how big is his tank?

Does she use calcium and a multivitamin powder daily?

The other big question is regarding the temperatures inside his tank. Does she use a Digital Thermometer that has a Probe on a wire or a Temperature Gun that she measures her temperature zones with, or does she simply have the stick-on thermometers inside the tank? Does she know what the temperatures are for her dragon's Basking Spot Surface Temperature, the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature, and the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature?

These are the big questions, along with his age and the daily diet, that are going to tell us what is going on with her dragon...
 

JellyfishQueen

Member
Original Poster
AH - thank you so much, I do understand how they feel though. Just reading that post must be quite upsetting and you have no background on my friend as I do and I know she's a nice person with no ill intent so I do understand the upset.
Ellen, I am so grateful for all of that information it must have taken such a long time to get together! I was hoping to be able to approach it in a way that you have explained as I have found that works best also. But to have the confirmation of another who has done this makes me feel a lot more confident. I have done research before when the dragon started to look unwell but some of the things such as uva bulbs I didn't know existed. I do know that she uses powder and digital thermometers. The rest I can find out and with the guide you have given me I'm sure I'll be able to identify all the information needed. I will be able to get the pictures and measurements hopefully this weekend and I know where she keeps the food too so I'll check how all of that is. My boyfriend checked earlier today and has found only crickets or locusts (he wasn't sure which bless him) so I'm hoping she has realised the worms are bad herself.
As said previously when I explained to her about the substrate she was very quick to change it so I believe it is misinformation rather than she is purposefully harming the dragon. Maybe I shouldn't have used extreme language.
Also in regards to age I think it must be at least a year old, we live in the UK and don't really have chain pet stores or at least not where I live so I'd have to ask her.
Thank you so much to all three of you for your responses!
I'll get back to you Ellen ASAP and hopefully we can help the dragon and my friend get better. :)
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
I think Ellen burns about 500 calories per post. :lol: Seriously, a lot of good info..... I feel tired just trying to put my 3-4 sentences together. Must....find....her secret. :)


And I know that the other poster [ King ] just has a passion to try to help a dragon in bad situation, he hates to see or hear about b.d's suffering.
 

JellyfishQueen

Member
Original Poster
Hahaha definitely :D honestly all three of you have been such a good help I really appreciate it.
Also I completely understand where King is coming from, I promise you all that if my friend won't work with me to get the dragon better (which I'm sure she will with all of the information and I can get my partner to speak with her too) I will make sure that dragon is well looked after by myself by any means necessary!
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
I'm busy repairing my computer after my boot drive (only 8 months old) died last Sunday , lots of stuff to reinstall after dell replaced my Alienware 17R4's boot drive ( a SATA SSD ) and it's been very very tedious and time consuming - as my backup is likely bad ( as the Creators Update failed and this was likely due to the not working properly , and the Dell tech who came to my house to replace the SSD advised If in doubt , don't use the backup to restore all my stuff , so I had to do everything the hard way ! :( .
So much for monthly backups onto an external HDD , it's taken 4 days and I'm finally getting close to having everything back.

So - I'll wait for you to post some images of her setup , uv lights, viv , etc and give a detailed run down of her husbandry and the dragon's obvious health issues before I provide my usual links to the detailed information and knowhow threads I've set up here designed to help people in your situation.

Key issues are usually (as mentioned by Ellen) associated with
>> basking temperature
>> daytime cool zone temperature
>> daytime warm zone temperature
>> nighttime minimum room temperatures
>> UVA exposure and flux gradient
>> UVB exposure and flux gradient
>> photoperiod
>> coloured lights
>> substrate
>> diet (which is age determined)
>> feeding schedule
>> supplementation
>> viv size and construction
>> husbandry
>> other animals
>> seasonal responses
>> human - dragon interaction

we're here to help .

There is no such thing as a dumb question. If in doubt ask away.
 

JLynn87

Hatchling Member
This form is an incredible community, I cannot express how grateful I am that you reached out on behalf of your friend. I had some similar traits of your friend, when I first purchased my bearded dragon, I was grossly miss led by a pet store; luckily I stumbled across this forum, my entire outlook on animal care has been changed.

Once you figure out the changes that need to be made, reach out for assistance in finding the specific items for the cheapest price you can. Most users on this forum have great resources and can sympathize with the financial difficulties brought forth by having to re-purchase all husbandry items for their beardie.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
AHBD":3a0vqvxs said:
I think Ellen burns about 500 calories per post. :lol: Seriously, a lot of good info..... I feel tired just trying to put my 3-4 sentences together. Must....find....her secret. :)


And I know that the other poster [ King ] just has a passion to try to help a dragon in bad situation, he hates to see or hear about b.d's suffering.

I did well in my 7th grade "Computer Keyboarding" class ?.

I didn't realize that you were in the UK, so you guys generally get beardies from private breeders then? Do you know if he was a small baby when she got him, or was he already an adult? That can always further complicate things for the new owner too, because you're having to figure out what bad husbandry the first owner did too... Hopefully this is just a case of some lighting, temperature, and diet tweaking and he'll get straightened out on on the right track.

It sounds like your friend lives her dragon and unfortunately is a victim herself of poor advice. It's a shame this happens so often, but we are certainly here to help her!

Sweet what info you can collect along with some photos and we'll start from there!

Knobbys, I'm glad I'm not the only one with computer issues right now, misery loves company! My Alienware gaming laptop (that I just had to have for the music/graphics capabilities and paid a small fortune for) seems to.be having a similar boot file issue. I love this laptop but I've had nothing but issues with the software since I built it and ordered it....But hey, who cares if it works, it's red, it has a little alien face on its front case who's eyes light up, along with little lights all over it and the keys all light up in whatever color schemes I want. Who needs a computer that actually works when it looks so good...?
 
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