German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen leg.

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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby EllenD » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:36 am

I didn't realize he was using an "All Living Things" UVB light, is it a tube or a compact or a coil? Many, many people use Reptisun 10.0 T5HO tube UVB lights with 40 gallon breeder tanks, all he needs is a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube in a 24" Fixture that must have a metal reflector behind the tube, and then a single, bright white basking bulb, probably 100 watts for a 40 gallon breeder tank in a dome or clamp lamp. That's it. It's very important you get him an adequate UVB tube, as the All Living Things UVB light must be within 6" of him to emit adequate UVB light to him, and if it's blocked by a mesh lid or a compact/coil UVB bulb, he's essentially gotten no UVB light at all since he was put under that light. Mesh lids block 40% of the UVB light, so when you already have a very weak, 13 watt compact UVB bulb or a T8 UVB tube being blocked by it, they are getting no UVB light, which is most likely the cause of the Gout, this is extremely common unfortunately.

Amazon.com gas 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tubes for $23 and a package deal can be added including a matching 24" fixture for the 22" tube (they fit in a 24" Fixture) for under $50. The T5HO is strong enough to sit on top of the mesh lid at a distance of no further away from the basking spot than 11". And a regular household halogen indoor flood bulb (they are all bright white) of 100 watts right alongside the UVB tube, both directly over his Basking Spot, will replicate natural sunlight for him.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby EllenD » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:49 am

And thank-you to Tracie for clearing up the fact that the pus coming from a joint can actually be a combination of both the Uric Acid Crystals resulting from Gout and an infection in the joint or extremity as a result of the Gout. I wasn't aware that this was a common thing, but it certainly explains his pain, the poor little guy. Gout is painful enough, I can't imagine having swelling and pain in a joint and extremity due to both Gout and an infection. He's a trooper!!!

I really think that the inadequate UVB light explains the length of time this has been going on, I'm glad that Tracie caught that because I missed it, and it's not uncommon at all for bearded dragons to develop "Pseudogout" as a result of inadequate UVB light and the resulting nutritional deficiencies, especially with the number of extremely weak compact and coil UVB bulbs being marketed for bearded dragons, along with the weaker T8 UVb tubes being put on top of the mesh lids of 40 gallon breeder tanks. The good news is that this can start to be reversed by getting an adequate 10.0 T5HO UVB tube and a course of Allopurinol. Hopefully the vet he sees tomorrow is familiar with pseudogout in bearded dragons due to inadequate UVB light.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:15 pm

EllenD wrote:And thank-you to Tracie for clearing up the fact that the pus coming from a joint can actually be a combination of both the Uric Acid Crystals resulting from Gout and an infection in the joint or extremity as a result of the Gout. I wasn't aware that this was a common thing, but it certainly explains his pain, the poor little guy. Gout is painful enough, I can't imagine having swelling and pain in a joint and extremity due to both Gout and an infection. He's a trooper!!!

I really think that the inadequate UVB light explains the length of time this has been going on, I'm glad that Tracie caught that because I missed it, and it's not uncommon at all for bearded dragons to develop "Pseudogout" as a result of inadequate UVB light and the resulting nutritional deficiencies, especially with the number of extremely weak compact and coil UVB bulbs being marketed for bearded dragons, along with the weaker T8 UVb tubes being put on top of the mesh lids of 40 gallon breeder tanks. The good news is that this can start to be reversed by getting an adequate 10.0 T5HO UVB tube and a course of Allopurinol. Hopefully the vet he sees tomorrow is familiar with pseudogout in bearded dragons due to inadequate UVB light.


Are these what he needs? https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-26061-Reptisun-Fluorescent/dp/B00AQU8HAO/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-26053-Reptisun-Terrarium/dp/B00AQU8F2O/ref=pd_bxgy_199_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=TDAGTDNW4ZR1YHFA9YAA

The mesh is divided by what seems to be plastic. Can it sit on this? https://imgur.com/a/T35sz His current UVB bulb is a coil.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby Drache613 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:08 am

Hello,

Those will be fine, no problem at all. The T5 is a lot stronger th an the compact/coil light.
Since he has been under a coil, that is a pretty weak UVB output, indeed.
You can sit the light fixture with the tube bulb on top of the screen but it will block out a
good amount of light, 30-40% depending on the size of the mesh/screen. How far is his
basking area from the top of the screen to where the light would be?
I agree, gout can come on from many different causes. I hate to see so many having so
many problems. Maybe this isn't gout but just a bad infection. Either way, it hasn't been
improving so something needs to be changed in his treatment.
How did the vet visit go?

Tracie
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby CooperDragon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:56 am

That's the exo-terra tank that I have too. The mesh is pretty fine and blocks quite a bit of UVB. It's definitely best to use a T5 with that setup. The ReptiSun hood and the 10.0 bulb you linked are a good fit for that tank, yes. It will work from the top of the screen if you build the basking area up to be within about 10'' of the bulb. Otherwise you could remove the screen in one of the quadrants or leave the top off (if you have no other animals in the house). You can put in a cross brace of some sort to rest the UVB light on if you take the top off. The basking light can hang from an adjustable stand. That's how I have mine set up and it works well. Without the screen in the way, it's best to have the basking area around 12'' from the bulb.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:00 am

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Those will be fine, no problem at all. The T5 is a lot stronger th an the compact/coil light.
Since he has been under a coil, that is a pretty weak UVB output, indeed.
You can sit the light fixture with the tube bulb on top of the screen but it will block out a
good amount of light, 30-40% depending on the size of the mesh/screen. How far is his
basking area from the top of the screen to where the light would be?
I agree, gout can come on from many different causes. I hate to see so many having so
many problems. Maybe this isn't gout but just a bad infection. Either way, it hasn't been
improving so something needs to be changed in his treatment.
How did the vet visit go?

Tracie


The top point is about 9 inches, the lowest is 12. All depends on how he positions himself on his log, but I am willing to change things around! I will order the light and fixture. His appointment is in 2 1/2 hours.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:10 am

CooperDragon wrote:That's the exo-terra tank that I have too. The mesh is pretty fine and blocks quite a bit of UVB. It's definitely best to use a T5 with that setup. The ReptiSun hood and the 10.0 bulb you linked are a good fit for that tank, yes. It will work from the top of the screen if you build the basking area up to be within about 10'' of the bulb. Otherwise you could remove the screen in one of the quadrants or leave the top off (if you have no other animals in the house). You can put in a cross brace of some sort to rest the UVB light on if you take the top off. The basking light can hang from an adjustable stand. That's how I have mine set up and it works well. Without the screen in the way, it's best to have the basking area around 12'' from the bulb.



I will most likely remove the screen in one quadrant, leaving the rest. What is the optimal basking light for him? I figure I might as well get him every single thing he needs in one quick run in addition to the vet appointment.. I can't fathom him going any more downhill.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby CooperDragon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:14 am

There is a lot more flexibility in the basking light. It just needs to be bright white light that produces enough heat. I use a 90w PAR38 halogen flood light hanging above the tank and it works well https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V92OHK/ There are plenty of good options though.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:21 pm

Pablo is back from the vet.

Upon examining him and looking at his front left leg and the rest of him, he believes that he has a system infection.

It is not impacting his nervous system yet to his knowledge. He was just prescribed Amoxicillin and Baytril. The Baytril was a while back before and was only for 14 days every other day. This is a 1 month cycle with him taking it every day..

Now for the big part..

He wants to have him in Tuesday to put him under, drain/whatever he has to do with the left leg and whatever other abscesses are found on his body. Appearance-wise he did not appear to have gout, and he said that after the leg is opened Tuesday he would be able to see if there was uric acid etc etc.. I am terrified at the thought of him undergoing anesthesia. What is the general consensus here on this? I know it will be a costly operation, and that part I don't mind so much. Just very nervous about his recovery if this is to be done.

He has sand as substrate, the Doctor believes that it should be changed out for something like newspaper. Not due to impaction concerns but bacterial

Thank you for any input.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby Juniper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:37 pm

My beardie had general anesthesia for surgery a week ago and is now acting completely normal. Here's what I learned from going through this (stuff my vet told me, and what my experience has been):

There's always a risk putting a very small animal under general anesthesia, but there has been a lot of progress in recent years in safely anesthetizing beardies and other small critters. Reptiles take longer to come out of anesthesia/start breathing on their own than warm-blooded animals, so a beardie taking awhile to wake up is not immediate cause for alarm. They may lose their appetite for a few days. Norbert was walking the morning after surgery, but walking like she was drunk, and a little droopy-eyed. I had to syringe-feed her the first few days. She ate bugs on her own six days after surgery. She was also in pain at first, shown by black streaks in her beard. The vet gave me pain medicine to give her, which helped. Yours should too, if they're cutting anything.

Anesthesia carries more risk if the animal is already weakened by illness, but isn't inherently too rough for a bearded dragon to handle.

And yeah, get him off the sand ASAP! Your vet is right that sand can foster infections and a host of other problems. If he has open wounds (anything with pus counts as an open wound)/when he is recovering from surgery, paper towels can be really good substrate because he can't scrape himself on them and they can be easily changed out if he poops or gets any other fluids on them. Incision sites need to be kept very clean and dry and not come in contact with anything abrasive. Long-term, a lot of people use slate or ceramic tiles, because they are easier to clean than reptile carpet.

I'm so sorry you and your beardie are going through this. I hope that surgery and medications go well and that he is better soon.
Last edited by Juniper on Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby CooperDragon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:46 pm

That's a lot of antibiotics. That can be hard on his kidneys so be sure to offer him lots of water to help protect them. It's scary to have them go under because they're so small. One of my guys went under for a lung lavage once and it wasn't a big deal. As long as you trust the vet and they feel confident in the procedure and diagnosis, it should be OK. It carries risks like any such procedure but if it has been deemed necessary then it's probably more beneficial than harmful in the long run. I also agree about the sand and it's risk of harboring bacteria. A solid substrate like newspaper or shelf liner or tile is much easier to replace or keep sanitized using a good disinfectant like F10.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:39 pm

CooperDragon wrote:That's a lot of antibiotics. That can be hard on his kidneys so be sure to offer him lots of water to help protect them. It's scary to have them go under because they're so small. One of my guys went under for a lung lavage once and it wasn't a big deal. As long as you trust the vet and they feel confident in the procedure and diagnosis, it should be OK. It carries risks like any such procedure but if it has been deemed necessary then it's probably more beneficial than harmful in the long run. I also agree about the sand and it's risk of harboring bacteria. A solid substrate like newspaper or shelf liner or tile is much easier to replace or keep sanitized using a good disinfectant like F10.


He has never been an avid water drinker even via syringe. It sounded like a lot of antibiotics to me as well. I was not sure if it was an infection because he has been doing reasonably well and still eating etc since August. I'm still very nervous about the operation.. I can't imagine how I will feel dropping him off there, I wish there was a way for this to all be sorted without pumping medicines into him and having him put under, but it seems like there's no real solutions elsewhere. He seems to have made it through all of Sept/October without worsening, but perhaps he was slightly slowing down the whole time without me noticing? I really don't know. I will update as soon as he is home with me.. Hopefully Tuesday.
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby Drache613 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:05 pm

Hello,

Poor Pablo! That is a lot of medications for sure. Try to make sure they don't overmedicate
him so his kidneys don't become damaged.
I have had our female under anesthesia twice, for two different things. She was a rescue so
there were a few problems when we got her. I was somewhat worried, just because I know
it is always a risk putting them under. As stated, as long as they are presumably healthy, it
usually isn't an issue if the vet is good & gives the proper amount of anesthesia & oxygen
titration while he is under. It is pretty routine & becoming more common practice as more
of us have procedures done on them. She fared well each time. She definitely was mad but
got over it. She was ready to go home, but, did well for them except that she wouldn't let
them put a tube into her mouth. She fought them on that, so, they just put a mask over her
to put her under. She was a little sleepy for a day or so, but quickly got back to normal & did
eat a couple of days later, actually. I was so proud of her.
I am not sure what they will find, but there don't seem to be any other options right now if
nothing else has worked. Perhaps he just has infection in that one area but not a systemic
infection.
When are you going to take him in, on tuesday?
Keep us posted on him. I am sure he will pull through just fine though!

Tracie
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:29 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Poor Pablo! That is a lot of medications for sure. Try to make sure they don't overmedicate
him so his kidneys don't become damaged.
I have had our female under anesthesia twice, for two different things. She was a rescue so
there were a few problems when we got her. I was somewhat worried, just because I know
it is always a risk putting them under. As stated, as long as they are presumably healthy, it
usually isn't an issue if the vet is good & gives the proper amount of anesthesia & oxygen
titration while he is under. It is pretty routine & becoming more common practice as more
of us have procedures done on them. She fared well each time. She definitely was mad but
got over it. She was ready to go home, but, did well for them except that she wouldn't let
them put a tube into her mouth. She fought them on that, so, they just put a mask over her
to put her under. She was a little sleepy for a day or so, but quickly got back to normal & did
eat a couple of days later, actually. I was so proud of her.
I am not sure what they will find, but there don't seem to be any other options right now if
nothing else has worked. Perhaps he just has infection in that one area but not a systemic
infection.
When are you going to take him in, on tuesday?
Keep us posted on him. I am sure he will pull through just fine though!

Tracie


Early Tuesday morning, yes. The thought of putting him under is making me sick to my stomach, but I know that if the leg has still been swollen since August something has to be done.. His doses are 22.7MG/ML and he gets 0.23ML of Baytril once every 24 hours for 30 days and 50mg/ML 0.3ML every 12 hours until the bottle is gone on the amoxicillin. He was about 520 or so grams in August and is only 530 now, so he did not put on much weight but surely did not lose any. Are these doses acceptable?
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Re: German Giant strange positions, deformed toe, swollen le

Postby GermanGiant3 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:28 pm

I did not expect to be posting an update like this at all.

After 2 doses of each antibiotic, Pablo has suddenly perked up and is climbing around, wants to jump off of my bed, climb down my pant leg. For the first time since August he just even climbed all the way up his log and the back-drop with his good leg and is holding on steadily under his lights.. It is like a day and night difference. Could he be feeling the antibiotic effects this quickly? I find it very odd that he has been sluggish and out of it for so long and after 2 doses of amoxicillin/baytril he is acting completely normal other than not holding on right now with the left front leg.

Is it a possibility that antibiotics for whole duration along with newer UVB and ensuring high quality food etc could take care of this without an operation, or is risking putting him under for the swollen left leg even when he is in such great spirits right now still the way to go? I am so torn.
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