URGENT ADVICE NEEDED 2 RESCUED BEARDIES

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ninjadewd

Member
First let me apologize for a long post in ER, there is a lot of crucial info and I want to provide all of it as quick as possible so I can get fast and accurate advice on what to do. I fear if I don't they will die.

I have been a proud owner of my 1 dragon Fenix for about 2 and a half months, but have done countless hours of research on beardies just in case I got in a pinch, and a pinch I am in. 5 days ago my friends boss offered him 2 beardies for $20, saying "The female is smaller than the male and not very social, they live together. I feed them mealworms. I've had them for about 3 months" and that was it, no pics or anything. My friend brought me the offer and I jumped on it, they arrived to my house via friend delivery the next night, and the state of the beardies was horrific...

First off, they both arrived together in a 10 gallon tank, which made me very sad because I knew it meant I was going to be shelling out $ for new tanks. I carried them inside and this is where I saw horror, these dragons never had a UV light, he sent all of his equipment, which included 1 blue heat light in a ZooMed 2 fixture. They also may have never had calcium powder, there was no trace of any in the tank and he didn't send any. In the tank itself was nasty. There was probably 30 pieces of poop that were molding and growing fungus, the substrate was sand that appeared to have been collected from outside and it was piled everywhere unevenly. The sand was also wet, probably from urate or water spilling and never being tended to.The water and food dish were full of mud and poop and runny yellow urate. The dragons were dark, skinny, and had their faces buried into the sand. I acted fast, taking the dragons out and cleaning out the tank, laying newspaper, and putting a cardboard wall between them. I then began examining the dragons for the first time.

(I will try to learn how to post pictures in the morning, but will describe as much as I can. I am sorry if this seems thrown together, in the last 5 days I have only gotten 3 hours of sleep because I have been caring for the dragons. I can't sleep in my warm bed knowing they are suffering, if I woke up and anything happened to them I would never forgive myself.)

I went out the next morning and got a 20 gallon tank for the male, a carpet, some ceramic tile, a heat light and 3 100 watt halogen bulbs for all my dragons, a 8w heat pad for the female, some carpet for her, and some ceramic tile for the male. I went to the pet store and got freeze dried crickets, a can of mini crickets, and fluker liquid calcium.

First I'll explain the male. He is about 5 - 8 inches long. After he got under the light he gained some energy and became very scared, glass surfing and running into walls a lot. Since he has calmed down a lot. In his new tank he has been almost nonstop basking on his cave and has gained some color. he is mid shed, and the loose skin has become very hard for him to get off. I mist him 4 times a day just about, and give him a bath every day. Because I don't have a scale, in the morning I just give him one drop of liquid calcium, when he licks it, he spasms a lot and shakes around for a couple seconds, but then he is more energetic than ever. I follow it up with some water, and if he hasn't passed his last meal, I replace the water with watered down vege oil to help him pass a fecal, he doesn't often drink the water or the vege oil. His meal increases every day. atm it is 2 crickets in the morning, 3 at night. Tomorrow I will give 3 in the morning, 4 at night, and do that every day. Should I stop at 6 in morning 6 at night until he starts gaining a lot of weight and improving in all aspects? I offer him kale with pear/raisins/grapes, but haven't seen him eat any of it. I provide fresh fruit, veggies, and water every morning. Since I got him, he gives about 2 fecals a day! at first they were small blue turds, covered in yellow clear liquid, and a very small but white urate. The first 2 had lots of sand, but since then they seem to have been clear of sand. He has obviously gained some weight because when I got him he was malnourished, but I still fear he has parasites. I also fear he has MBD because of the previous lack of calcium, but there are somehow not many signs. He occasionally has a small shake every 20 mins, followed by lifting a back leg, but he also just began shedding his tail and legs, so that could be why right? All his limbs look and feel okay, and he doesn't show any pain. I have no clue if he went though brumation already, it is possible because I doubt they got all the lighting they needed, I'm sure the old owner forgot to turn on the lights several times. But if he goes into it anytime soon I think it could kill him.

Next is the female, who is in AWFUL condition, and this is where I will need a LOT of help and outside perspective.

She is a microlepidota, so she is only about 3 - 3.5 inches long. Because she is so small (and I can't afford a scale) I let her lick a very small drop of liquid calcium in the morning, followed by water, when she drinks the liquid cal, she shakes violently for about 5 seconds, but then puts her head up and opens her eyes and starts moving around and climbing. It is very hard to get her to eat, and her bones are so weak that I can't open her mouth without breaking her jaw, because when I try she shakes quickly trying to escape. It is hard to tell if she has MBD or not, but it's likely. Because of her size I kept her in the 10 gallon because it will last her her whole life because she will only get about 5-6 inches long. The first day and a half I had her, she didn't even move. she kept her head down on the ground, both eyes closed and appeared to just rest. After giving her liquid cal every morning and plenty of water. she has improved a lot. however I fear she has ADV. parasites are likely, but I hear ADV makes dragons prone to all the common types of parasites and worms (which would explain why after all the water he stomach has gained some weight. Since the old tank was wet and had those red pellets, her skin is dyed red. ADV has me very scared and I don't know what to do about it. Her skin was very very dark but since I got her she has gained a LOT of color. (she also has 2 dark patches on her back? don't know what they are but I have been applying a healthy slab of Mupirocin USP 2% in the morning, and bathing it off of her at night). I bathe all my dragons at least once a day if not more, and mist them all several times since they are all shedding. My biggest concern is that the male (who doesn't seem extremely sick like the female) has contracted ADV from her. In the 10 minutes I had them together not separated he stepped on her head and nipped her tail, leaving a kink. So with them being in so much contact for about 3 months, is it even possible that he doesn't have adv? He doesn't show many signs of it, he holds his head up and eats normally. In the last 5 days the female ate half of a 2 week old cricket, a few very small pieces of kale, and a quarter of a raisin. Tomorrow I am going to try to syringe her some squash baby food. She has also only given me 3 very small fecals, that are always covered in a lot of yellowish clear liquid, the poop contains a decent amount of sand, and the urate is white. Lately she has been moving around a lot more, and occasionally glass surfs (loaded with stress marks, but go away more each day. her right eye is very infected, I thought she was missing it at first, but after days of wiping her eye with a wet q tip, the pupil has finally shown itself, her eyeball appears to be pushed down into her head about 2 or 3 millimeters, so I'm not sure if she is blind in it, it is very rare that she opens it.

So before you comment the obvious, "take them to the vet for fecals and injections and xrays" I want to put it out there that I sadly can NOT afford to take them to the vet. I don't even know if there is a vet withing 2 hours of me that deals with reptiles, but I know that my local vet is very pricey, I'm going to call and explain the situation to him and hope he offers to look at them for free, but I am dirt broke and just can't take them to a vet.

I have stressed about this non stop and don't know what else to do, should I euthanize the female in the most peaceful way I can afford to? She is improving a lot, but it is my understanding that ADV is incurable and cuts the life of a reptile by many years, and causes them to always be in pain. If not, then what are some things I should save up for to help them? I need veteran beardie parent advice or advice from any vets who might read this (if anyone reads it at all).

I sanitize all my utensils that come in contact with the infected reptiles every hour, and I sanitize and wash my hands thoroughly every hour to prevent cross contamination to my ever so healthy 15" dragon fenix. (speaking of him, I let him eat as much as he can or wants in 10 minutes in the morning and 2 hours before bed, he is getting quite fat, is this okay? Or will it hurt his liver?) is it safe to give the male a drop of liquid cal each morning and dust his crickets every other day?

The 2 sick dragons (Scuddle and Iris btw) each have a 100w halogen bulb, and are sharing a 18" UVB reptisun light (tanks are side by side but they can't see eachother, can't afford another fixture) the uvb was originally for Fenix's 40gal tank, but I replaced it with a smaller 5.0 reptisun UVB light fixture I had on standby, he also has a 100w halogen. (Because he has a smaller UVB light now, it only reaches about half his tank, it is above his basking spot which is where he spends most of the day anyways.

I know there isn't too much I can do for them, but they are rapidly improving and I want to save them because they are good dragons and don't deserve to die like this because some a**hole couldn't care for them any less than a hawk would, they get a fair shot at life just like we do and every other dragon in captivity gets. I just need to know things that I am not doing that could help. I have spent many hours online doing research and am now reaching out to the BD community for help. I need sleep. I will check this in the morning for advice, thanks in advance.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Kudos to you for rescuing these two unfortunate dragons from someone who appears to be a real DS.

ninjadewd":3v6ra0q2 said:
First let me apologize for a long post in ER, there is a lot of crucial info and I want to provide all of it as quick as possible so I can get fast and accurate advice on what to do. I fear if I don't they will die.

I have been a proud owner of my 1 dragon Fenix for about 2 and a half months, but have done countless hours of research on beardies just in case I got in a pinch, and a pinch I am in. 5 days ago my friends boss offered him 2 beardies for $20, saying "The female is smaller than the male and not very social, they live together. I feed them mealworms. I've had them for about 3 months" and that was it, no pics or anything. My friend brought me the offer and I jumped on it, they arrived to my house via friend delivery the next night, and the state of the beardies was horrific...

<<<< photos of the two dragons , the viv and lighting and showing the setup and the bedding and lighting arrangement , there are going to be lots of issues but we need to see these photos and will be asking for more detailed information.

This is how I post images here - is IMO easier : viewtopic.php?f=30&t=236881


First off, they both arrived together in a 10 gallon tank, which made me very sad because I knew it meant I was going to be shelling out $ for new tanks.
<<< if they are both very young / small (under maybe 300g) , you can in the short / medium term set up two stackable rearing tubs using 100 - 150 L clear sided plastic tub , here is how I set my rearing tubs : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480


Very important to separate the pair , and house each in their own individual stackable rearing tubs or a stacked pair or vivs , the sooner you do this the better as one of them will be the dominant and the other not doing so well and failing to thrive (may not be game to bask or eat when the other dragon is awake and active.


I carried them inside and this is where I saw horror, these dragons never had a UV light, he sent all of his equipment, which included 1 blue heat light in a ZooMed 2 fixture.
<<<< the dual light dome can be salvaged for one of the rearing tubs/vivs , if you have the bench/floor space , two vivs / tubs can set up side-by-side thus able to utilize one T5ho 12% - 14% UVB TUBE in a reflectorhood + maybe one baking globe or two basking globes - see my outline for how to do this in the above link.

either a MVB for each or a colorless par38 domestic incandescent or halogen spot globe is fine basking globes .
throw the blue globe in the bin, it's worthless.


They also may have never had calcium powder, there was no trace of any in the tank and he didn't send any. In the tank itself was nasty. There was probably 30 pieces of poop that were molding and growing fungus, the substrate was sand that appeared to have been collected from outside and it was piled everywhere unevenly. The sand was also wet, probably from urate or water spilling and never being tended to.
>>> Poor little beardies , I makes me very angry when people show so much neglect for these sweet animals who are relying on them for everything :(

>>>>REMOVE EVERYTHING from the viv provided IF YOU INTEND TO USE IT - to house one of the rescues in it
I recommend thoroughly cleaning EVERYTHING and then using F10SC DILUTED 1:250 to spray everything then let everything air dry for 30 minutes , I repeat the F10 sterilization before refurnishing the viv FOR ONE DRAGON.
NO SAND , NO PARTICULATE TYPE BEDDINGS == VERY BAD IMPACTION HAZARDS.

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you have a reptile vet give each a baseline health check including checks for MBD , kidney and liver function and fecal floats for parasites.



The water and food dish were full of mud and poop and runny yellow urate.
<<< if in doubt about being able to clean and sterilize these , ditch them.

The dragons were dark, skinny, and had their faces buried into the sand. I acted fast, taking the dragons out and cleaning out the tank, laying newspaper, and putting a cardboard wall between them. I then began examining the dragons for the first time.
<<<< not a bad start but they will be better off in 100 - 150L rearing tubs. I'd let the smaller of the two keep the viv (upgrade the lights = 12%UVB T5HO tube in a reflectorhood + colorless basking globe) , this will help you work out how far the basking spot needs to be from the T5HO tube viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611

(I will try to learn how to post pictures in the morning, but will describe as much as I can. I am sorry if this seems thrown together, in the last 5 days I have only gotten 3 hours of sleep because I have been caring for the dragons. I can't sleep in my warm bed knowing they are suffering, if I woke up and anything happened to them I would never forgive myself.)

I went out the next morning and got a 20 gallon tank for the male, a carpet, some ceramic tile, a heat light
<<<< if it's a red infrared globe , return it and exchange for at couple 26W UVB200 compacts for a quick boost in UVA and UVB ,
<<< I use 26W UVB200 globes mounted in my rearing tubs in ExoTerra NanoHoods, a reflector dome will do in pinch , mounted UNDER my lids, the dome should be hung pendulum style under the lid (from the cable and some cable ties , and I position my 26W UVB200 globes about 8 inches from teh basking spots for my both my beardies.
Works very well and I've had no health issues in my beardies attributeable to the compact 26W UVB200 globes - they've thrived !!

A T8 or a T5HO 12%UVB tube in a reflector hood or with a slipon reflector for each rescue and the healthy dragon will of cause be better (especially the T5HO version).
In both cased T8 & T5HO , mounted in reflector hoods & UNDER the lid, see viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611
for guide in distancing (tube to basking spot and effect of reflectors (essentially 2x the UV) and effect or mesh lids if mounted ontop the lid ( a reduction of 40% of the UV).



and 3 100 watt halogen bulbs for all my dragons, a 8w heat pad for the female,
<<< she will benefit from and appreciate the heatpad ,
I'd slip it between two tiles
(see viewtopic.php?f=75&t=224976
for what I have found works and is safe way of providing 24/7 heating for lizards)


some carpet for her, and some ceramic tile for the male. I went to the pet store and got freeze dried crickets, a can of mini crickets, and fluker liquid calcium.

See this
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=237167
for settling up the feeding schedule and suitable feeders

No freeze dried or canned bugs , these are a waste of money and not nutritious.
A comparison of feeder insects : viewtopic.php?f=76&t=234999&p=1807834#p1807834
And this for a guide / cheatsheet : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=234738&p=1806050#p1806050
She's better off with soft bodied slow moving insects ,
ie
BSF lavae and silkworks (about 1 inch long)
even butter worms, wax worms
(I'd ordinarily advise against wax worms , but she needs the protein and fat and an easy to eat live insect feeder if her jaws are so damaged (again , a vet assessment may prove otherwise if she's quite young (under 4 months she may still have go bone density)).



First I'll explain the male. He is about 5 - 8 inches long. After he got under the light he gained some energy and became very scared, glass surfing and running into walls a lot. Since he has calmed down a lot. In his new tank he has been almost nonstop basking on his cave and has gained some color. he is mid shed, and the loose skin has become very hard for him to get off. I mist him 4 times a day just about, and give him a bath every day. Because I don't have a scale, in the morning I just give him one drop of liquid calcium, when he licks it, he spasms a lot and shakes around for a couple seconds, but then he is more energetic than ever.
<<<< Think this shaking is neurological due to lack of UVA , and perhaps also due to lack of vitD3 (due to lack of UVB and dietary calcium) .... vet will confirm this.
I follow it up with some water, and if he hasn't passed his last meal, I replace the water with watered down vege oil to help him pass a fecal, he doesn't often drink the water or the vege oil. His meal increases every day. atm it is 2 crickets in the morning, 3 at night. Tomorrow I will give 3 in the morning, 4 at night, and do that every day. Should I stop at 6 in morning 6 at night until he starts gaining a lot of weight and improving in all aspects? I offer him kale with pear/raisins/grapes, but haven't seen him eat any of it. I provide fresh fruit, veggies, and water every morning. Since I got him, he gives about 2 fecals a day! at first they were small blue turds, covered in yellow clear liquid, and a very small but white urate. The first 2 had lots of sand, but since then they seem to have been clear of sand. He has obviously gained some weight because when I got him he was malnourished, but I still fear he has parasites. I also fear he has MBD because of the previous lack of calcium, but there are somehow not many signs. He occasionally has a small shake every 20 mins, followed by lifting a back leg, but he also just began shedding his tail and legs, so that could be why right? All his limbs look and feel okay, and he doesn't show any pain. I have no clue if he went though brumation already, it is possible because I doubt they got all the lighting they needed, I'm sure the old owner forgot to turn on the lights several times. But if he goes into it anytime soon I think it could kill him.

<<<< keep them both warm , 24/7 & long photoperiod (15 - 16 hrs per day) and keep offering LIVE INSECTS (see list here viewtopic.php?f=18&t=237167 and choose veg from this list : http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html , if they eat some high quality high calcium greens it's a bonus but it's not important while they are so young.

Next is the female, who is in AWFUL condition, and this is where I will need a LOT of help and outside perspective.

She is a microlepidota, so she is only about 3 - 3.5 inches long.
>>>> ???? pogona microlepidota ( Kimberley Bearded dragon ) ???? <== unlikely outside Australia , even exceptionally rare in the hobby in Australia outside WA and the NT , unless she's been illegally taken from the from the wild and them illegally exported from Australia (trafficked). As far as I have read , no one outside Australia except a few reptile zoos have any Kimberley BD or are breading any of these.

This is where her natural range is :
range_of_bearded_dragons_lg.png

this is some of the most remote and inaccessible (unless you have a helicopter or boat or very capable 4x4) locations in Mainland Australia (if not on the planet), the only towns visited by tourists in this very remote tropical region (known as the Kimberley Region) are Broome, Derby, Wyndham, Kunanarra, Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing, the bulk of the natural range of Kimberley BD is aboriginal reserve / national park and crown land , cattle stations. No town in the Kimberley Region is larger than 5000 permanent residents, most are under 500 permanent residents.

While it is possible someone has taken the dragon from the wild and trafficked it illegally and internationally , it's about 2 full days by air from Broome or Darwin to where ever you are if you are not located in Australia , and 12 hours by air and a week to drive none-stop to the southern states.
Hence I consider the claim she's a Kimberley BD highly unlikely, if she is , and you are located outside WA or the NT (in Australia) she's an exceptionally rare find in the hobby.

I've done self drive 4x4 camping/photography/fishing safaris in the Kimberley Region and most the roads are not much better than very bad dirt tracks and VERY CHALLENGING as a the river and creek crossings (with the added danger to sharks of large esterine crocodiles ... they scare the crap out of me as you never see the croc who has you lined up as it's next meal !!) .

Road access in the wet season is IMPOSSIBLE away from the Great Northern H/W , and even in peak tourist season ( April -- October) people are very few and far apart.
We drove an for an entire day from Broome to Kunanarra and saw only a handful of cars and roadtrains going the other direction, and never saw an single person along the road.
= Isolation with a CAPITAL I !!!

Please show us detailed photos of her , from above, close up on side and top of head , so we can check to see if she is indeed a Kimberley BD.
We can look at her head shape and crown and beard configuration and work out what species she is from that.
See
BEARDIES_CROWN_AND_HEAD_SHAPES.gif




At 3 - 3.5 inches long she is either a new born hatchling or very badly growth stunted if older.

Because she is so small (and I can't afford a scale) I let her lick a very small drop of liquid calcium in the morning, followed by water, when she drinks the liquid cal, she shakes violently for about 5 seconds, but then puts her head up and opens her eyes and starts moving around and climbing. It is very hard to get her to eat, and her bones are so weak that I can't open her mouth without breaking her jaw, because when I try she shakes quickly trying to escape. It is hard to tell if she has MBD or not, but it's likely. Because of her size I kept her in the 10 gallon because it will last her her whole life because she will only get about 5-6 inches long. The first day and a half I had her, she didn't even move. she kept her head down on the ground, both eyes closed and appeared to just rest. After giving her liquid cal every morning and plenty of water. she has improved a lot. however I fear she has ADV. parasites are likely, but I hear ADV makes dragons prone to all the common types of parasites and worms (which would explain why after all the water he stomach has gained some weight. Since the old tank was wet and had those red pellets, her skin is dyed red. ADV has me very scared and I don't know what to do about it. Her skin was very very dark but since I got her she has gained a LOT of color. (she also has 2 dark patches on her back? don't know what they are but I have been applying a healthy slab of Mupirocin USP 2% in the morning, and bathing it off of her at night). I bathe all my dragons at least once a day if not more, and mist them all several times since they are all shedding. My biggest concern is that the male (who doesn't seem extremely sick like the female) has contracted ADV from her. In the 10 minutes I had them together not separated he stepped on her head and nipped her tail, leaving a kink. So with them being in so much contact for about 3 months, is it even possible that he doesn't have adv? He doesn't show many signs of it, he holds his head up and eats normally. In the last 5 days the female ate half of a 2 week old cricket, a few very small pieces of kale, and a quarter of a raisin. Tomorrow I am going to try to syringe her some squash baby food. She has also only given me 3 very small fecals, that are always covered in a lot of yellowish clear liquid, the poop contains a decent amount of sand, and the urate is white. Lately she has been moving around a lot more, and occasionally glass surfs (loaded with stress marks, but go away more each day. her right eye is very infected, I thought she was missing it at first, but after days of wiping her eye with a wet q tip, the pupil has finally shown itself, her eyeball appears to be pushed down into her head about 2 or 3 millimeters, so I'm not sure if she is blind in it, it is very rare that she opens it.

>>>> Mupirocin USP 2% ? I'm not sure if this is wize to use or apply without it being prescribed by a reptile vet

I repeat , you really need to get the temperatures right, and UV right, diet right


So before you comment the obvious, "take them to the vet for fecals and injections and xrays" I want to put it out there that I sadly can NOT afford to take them to the vet. I don't even know if there is a vet withing 2 hours of me that deals with reptiles, but I know that my local vet is very pricey, I'm going to call and explain the situation to him and hope he offers to look at them for free, but I am dirt broke and just can't take them to a vet.

Really need to try to get them to a vet if at all possible , as from your description they seem well beyond home remedies , beg or borrow money from your friends or take an advance on your wages (assuming you are working) , if you are working , there are credit facilities available to provide vet care , or you can maybe setup a GoFundMe acct to fund caring for the rescues and their vet bills (others have done this).


I have stressed about this non stop and don't know what else to do, should I euthanize the female in the most peaceful way I can afford to?
<<< if you can afford to have them euphanised (by a vet) you can afford wellness / health tests by a reptile vet.
Since we have seen the rescues , we can not advise if euphanisation is the most humane thing / kindest thing to do . I'd only do this if a reptile has no prospect of improving and having any quality of life and if it can only look forward to suffering and great pain for the rest of it's life, you description doesn't tick the necessary boxes IMO. BUT I have not seen them and a vet has not either.
If you think their care and recovery is beyond your means/ability/whereforall, maybe a reptile rescuer is the best option - they will have the rescues assessed by a reptile vet and arrange proper care and treatment to rehabilitate them if this is possible then rehome them with a suitable home and carer/keeper (and will likely follow up regularly to make sure all is well afterwards).
She is improving a lot, but it is my understanding that ADV is incurable and cuts the life of a reptile by many years, and causes them to always be in pain.

>>>> Like already said, if she has ADV, he will also have it, and there is a very strong risk of you carrying the virus to your healthy dragon if you are not practicing very strict infection control protocols and strict quaranteen to keep the rescues and the healthy dragon and their food separated (different rooms is best).
You will not know if any of them have ADV unless it's symptomatic or tested for by a vet. Everything else is guessing.


If not, then what are some things I should save up for to help them? I need veteran beardie parent advice or advice from any vets who might read this (if anyone reads it at all).

I sanitize <<<< how ? >>>> all my utensils that come in contact with the infected reptiles every hour, and I sanitize and wash my hands thoroughly every hour to prevent cross contamination to my ever so healthy 15" dragon fenix. (speaking of him, I let him eat as much as he can or wants in 10 minutes in the morning and 2 hours before bed, he is getting quite fat, is this okay? Or will it hurt his liver?) is it safe to give the male a drop of liquid cal each morning and dust his crickets every other day?
My understanding that vet grade liquid calcium is dosed orally according to the bodyweight of the reptile see this for example ( VetaFarm CalciVet ) http://vetafarm.com.au/product/calcivet/
Each Litre contains: Calcium 33g, Vitamin D3 25000 IU

Direct dose: 0.2mL (4 drops) per 100g body weight.

A flat-top kitchen scale will be fine to weigh your dragon to the nearest gram (place them each an small tub (takeaway plastic food tubs are perfect for smaller lizards) , tare (zero with the empty tub on tub) then weigh , I recommend a weekly weighin .


You have never put up any photos of Fenix , so we can not really tell without seeing him.

The 2 sick dragons (Scuddle and Iris btw) each have a 100w halogen bulb, and are sharing a 18" UVB reptisun light (tanks are side by side but they can't see eachother, can't afford another fixture) the uvb was originally for Fenix's 40gal tank, but I replaced it with a smaller 5.0 reptisun UVB light fixture I had on standby, he also has a 100w halogen. (Because he has a smaller UVB light now, it only reaches about half his tank, it is above his basking spot which is where he spends most of the day anyways.

I know there isn't too much I can do for them, but they are rapidly improving and I want to save them because they are good dragons and don't deserve to die like this because some a**hole couldn't care for them any less than a hawk would, they get a fair shot at life just like we do and every other dragon in captivity gets. I just need to know things that I am not doing that could help. I have spent many hours online doing research and am now reaching out to the BD community for help. I need sleep. I will check this in the morning for advice, thanks in advance.

Recap :
A lot information and advise given here, others will likely add to the advise I've provided , very wise to follow the advise. I've invested a lot of time trying to advise you because I want to try to help you help these two unfortunate rescues.

Don't forget to provide :
photos of all three dragons --- especially the new girl ( claimed to be a Kimberley BD)
photos of the vivs
photos of the lights

Diet needs improving - no freeze dried or canned bugs , live bugs (NO MEALWORMS ! NO SUPERWORMS !) , and greens offered each day.

At least a 12% UVB T5HO tube in a reflector hood mounted under lid , set up to give 180-200 microW UVB / sq.cm at the basking spot and about 80 microW UVB / sq.cm elsewhere.

NO HOTTER THAN 40-43 degC at the basking spot.

Keep the rescues warm overnight ( about 24-28 deg C ) to boost immune systems.

You have separated them = GOOD

you have removed the sand = VERY GOOD , keep an eye on the rescues for sights of impaction (hard lumps in their tummies IMPLIES VERY SERIOUS IMPACTION --> vet needed.

RECOMMEND VERY STRONGLY visit to reptile vet for baseline wellness assessments and tests to determine if infected with ADV , parasites , liver & kidney function , MBD , etc. Worth it and takes all the guesswork away , and will likely improve their long term prognosis.

>>> Highly likely both rescues have the following health issues ;
both have it (highly contagious)

> if one has ADV - can't say without tests (if you outside the USA , the chance of this is reduced)
> if one has GIT parasites , can't say without tests (is treatable)
> fungal skin infections ? , can't say without tests (is treatable)

as raised and kept together both will be effected

> calcium deficient (treatable)
> VitD3 deficient (treatable)
> impaction (usually treatable , but can be risky if severe invasive methods used)
> MBD (treatable but likely disabling)
> severe dehydration (treatable)
> severe malnutrition (treatable)
> stunted growth (if young they can still grow , but will never catchup on lost growth opportunities)

while in such poor health, and so small, not wise to let them brumate.[/color]


See advise and links provided. I recommend printing off the information I've provided and giving yourself a day or two to assimilate it , if you have questions , ask.

Really good idea to find a way to get the rescues to a reptile vet , see list here viewtopic.php?f=45&t=234369&p=1803862&hilit=melissa#p1803862
 

Savora

Hatchling Member
Oh my :( firstly, thank you so much for taking in these poor babies. You seem to know your stuff.

The beardies probably have a degree of MBD, so that's probably causing the shaking. Adenovirus is contagious, so I certainly hope it's not ADV, but the symptoms of MBD & malnutrition overlap with ADV. I wouldn't automatically assume it's ADV yet. Is the female beardie stargazing? Dr. Tracie sells inexpensive ADV tests from her website.

To help with getting nutrition in them, I'd get ReptaBoost or Oxbow Critical Care (both of these are sold at my local PetCo, maybe it's sold at yours too) or even Repashy Grub Pie to be able to feed to them via syringe. If you drop some on the female's nose for long enough, it'll probably stimulate her to start lapping it up, which she'll appreciate because these things (especially Repashy Grub Pie) taste great to beardies.

Keep us updated :( the poor things
 

Savora

Hatchling Member
Ooh, I should also mention. If you have more extra dome fixtures around than you do flourescent strip fixtures, an MVB might be cheaper than buying both a UVB flourescent light and a fixture.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Savora":r4f7a141 said:
Oh my :( firstly, thank you so much for taking in these poor babies. You seem to know your stuff.

The beardies probably have a degree of MBD, so that's probably causing the shaking. Adenovirus is contagious, so I certainly hope it's not ADV, but the symptoms of MBD & malnutrition overlap with ADV. I wouldn't automatically assume it's ADV yet. Is the female beardie stargazing? Dr. Tracie sells inexpensive ADV tests from her website.

To help with getting nutrition in them, I'd get ReptaBoost or Oxbow Critical Care (both of these are sold at my local PetCo, maybe it's sold at yours too) or even Repashy Grub Pie to be able to feed to them via syringe. If you drop some on the female's nose for long enough, it'll probably stimulate her to start lapping it up, which she'll appreciate because these things (especially Repashy Grub Pie) taste great to beardies.

<<< I concur , these are all excellent suppliments , and being made as pastes will help with hydration too.
Another good one is VetaFarm HerpaBoost.


Keep us updated :( the poor things
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I appreciate you wanting to help these 2, but I'll reserve any advice until you post photos of both the dragons, along with their setups and lighting. Otherwise we're just guessing about what is going on, that's dangerous and counterproductive.

Please don't feed any bearded dragon freeze-dried insects at all, they will only cause an impaction, and they are dehydrating and contain no nutrition. Either feed them appropriately sized live bugs, preferably soft bugs like BSFL, or as mentioned Repashy Grubpie is great. But no freeze-dried anything.

And do not simply assume that either of them have Adenovirus, as I'm certain they both have MBD and a host of other deficiency syndromes that are causing a host of issues. Euthanizing either of them should not be even a discussion yet, though it's pretty much inevitable that they will both need to see a certified reptile vet ASAP, especially the female, as she is most likely not a Kimberly Dragon, I've never ever seen one in person and if you're not in Australia there is little to no chance of this. And even in Australia it's extremely doubtful. Are you sure you're not thinking of a Rankins? That could be, we can tell if this is the case after seeing the photos.

I'd make sure your prior beardie that you put a Reptisun 5.0 UVB over is within at least 6" of the tube and it is not being obstructed by anything at all, such as a mesh lid, because a 5.0 UVB tube will be ineffective otherwise.

Please post the photos when you can and we'll try to help as much as we can, but as already mentioned, I think that home remedies are not going to be sufficient, as at the very least parasites/worms are very likely due to the environment they were living in, and they need to have fecal testing to diagnose which parasites and what meds are necessary.
 

ninjadewd

Member
Original Poster
I put together 3 imgur threads so you can easily view the pictures together.

Male Beardie https://imgur.com/gallery/DKal6
Female Beardie https://imgur.com/gallery/02Xf9
Food and Gear https://imgur.com/gallery/NjGBJ

I just weighed the female on a very accurate scale my friend let me borrow. She weighed in at 8.2g, which puts me at a loss for what to do with the liquid cal. The bottle says to apply half a teaspoon to food 3 times a week and half a teaspoon to fresh water daily, but I fear if I pit it in her water she could overdose, and she rarely eats her food. Should I continue letting her lick a small drop every morning?

You said the diet needs changing, specifically she needs slow moving live food. Locally all that is sold is adult crickets, super worms, and mealworms. I know that as a baby (well, she is at least 2 and a half months old) she shouldn't have superworms, and NO bearded dragons can have mealworms, and the crickets are far too big for her. I don't think there is much I can order online that will be big enough for her to eat. However I didn't know freeze dried crickets were so harmful, whenever I handle Fenix I sometimes give him one has a treat, and it never seems to cause him any trouble, he actually seems to enjoy it a lot. Perhaps I could get some baby food and make a paste with it, some calcium powder, and some of the canned or freshly dead crickets?

It is also worth noting that until I get another UVB fixture ( I don't think putting something in the second slot of the dual fixture would be very beneficial) I have the 2 new beardies share the 18" strip and give fenix the smaller fixture. When the 2 new beardies wake up at 9am, the name has the strip, and the female has the 5.0, and when fenix wakes at 12 I give him the 5.0 and the other 2 share the strip, like I said, this is temporary.

If I give the male liquid cal in the morning (haven't weighed him yet because the scale is too small) is it safe to dust his crickets every other day? I want to cure the calcium deficiency asap but I don't want to overdose them on calcium either.

I sanitize by soaking the utensils I use on the female everytime I use them in some scolding hot water for about 10 minutes. The utensils included tweezers, a syringe, and medical scissors to cut her pieces of food into proper sizes, but the only one of these utensils she shares with the male is the syringe. (The only thing that comes in contact with the rescues and fenix is my hands. And every time I touch a dragon I immediately wash my hands in warm water and use hand sanitizer. But might get some cheap gloves just because if somehow they do have ADV I am REALLY scared it could contaminate fenix. It isn't airborne is it? I'm pretty sure I know what a healthy fecal and unhealthy fecal looks like, but if you would like I can post pictures of the decals as soon as I get them. The female produced one earlier and it was just yellow mush with a small white urate and clear liquid surrounding it. (Too much calcium?, or not absorbing it efficiently?)

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this, it is definitely a relief to have more information provided to me from more experienced owners. I'm trying to learn, but I don't want my inexperience to cost these dragons their lives. I called my vet and he said a fecal test could cost about $20, but if they have to send it to the lab they dont know how pricey it will get, so I might have them look at it. They claim to not have a whole lot of experience with exotics and reptiles in general, but are capable of doing a basic fecal test. Is this worth spending money on? Or should I spend the money somewhere else where it is needed. I hate the idea of begging for money with something such as a gofundme, but if I really need to I guess I will, but I doubt it will get any traction.
 

ninjadewd

Member
Original Poster
Also I have been testing temps in all locations of all tanks. They all come out to be pretty much the same

Basking spot = high 90's to 100

Cool side of tank = mid 70's

And the spot where they usually hang out when not basking is right around 80.

My night temps are in the low to mid 70's. I haven't used the heatpad on the female yet because I fear it would overheat her in the day and hydration is already a problem. Maybe I should run it at night? Its attached to the bottom of her tank under the middle of her green carpet. She usually sleep there so I'm not sure if its a good idea.

Here are some pics of fenix and his terrarium, and the other 2 dragons sharing the strip. When I went to take the pics I noticed had taken and was holding a large breath which made him seem about an inch wider, I don't know what this meant, but right after I noticed it, he opened his mouth wider than I've ever seen a BD open one before, his jaw was almost completely vertical, it only lasted a second but when he closed it he puffed his beard out as far as he coukd , however it didn't turn black. I captured pics if the strange behavior. He recently began shedding his chest area and his legs, when he shed his back he puffed his beard in and out very quickly and rolled his head to tear the skin on his back, maybe this is the same thing?

Fenix (read picture description) https://imgur.com/gallery/xaaAU

Odd behavior (read picture description) https://imgur.com/gallery/89S5H

Tank setups (after lights have to be shared) https://imgur.com/gallery/n2PuI

I really wish the heat fixture that came with the nalea tank wasn't so big, it would allow for much better light distribution if it was smaller. I would swap it out with the females 2 fixture but it wouldn't allow them to share the strip. I have been to several local stores to see if they sell any cheaper UVB bulbs, but the only UV bulbs I can find are the strips at the pet store.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, your tank set ups look great ! Just put something under the one on the left to get it up closer to the uvb bulb, and put the basing log under the uvb and heat bulb. The male doesn't look bad at all, female may or may not have ADV but if she has it then he will 99.9% surely have it.

Your 15" dragon looks great, be VERY careful that you never handle him or his things after handling the 2 new ones. Always take care of Feinix first.

You're doing a great job with them, give them live feeders but careful that the bugs are no longer than the space between their eyes, that's critical for the little one.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I think this was a case of 2 dragons being kept together, and in only a 10 gallon tank with horrible husbandry obviously, but the main issue with the female isn't Adenovirus at all, it's the fact that the male has been dominating the hell out of her. I'm sure when the prior owner fed them he just threw bugs in the tank or whatever he fed them and the male ate all the food, then hogged the basking spot, and just stressed the poor little girl to the max. The fact that the male looks healthy and the female is stunted and skinny and dehydrated pretty much convinces me. If it was Adenovirus he would also have signs of it. They both no doubt have bone density issues amongst other things, but that poor little girl has just been stressed and dominated to death. I'd put something in between their tanks ASAP so they cannot see each other anymore at all, that should help her relax a bit.

This is a really good example of why bearded dragons should not be housed together. She's not a Kimberly Dragon or even a Rankins, she's a normal beardie that has been housed with a bigger bully of a male, and this has caused horrible stress and resulted in her hardly eating and getting no hydration. I would definitely order some size large BSFL or small dubias in bulk online, she needs to start being fed slowly but steadily, as she hasn't gotten much protein at all and too much at once can hurt her kidneys. The setups are good for what you're working with, as AHBD has stated try to get the left tank's basking spot much closer to the UVB tube, and again put something between the two tanks so that they cannot see each other. When you're able to get a second UVB light and fixture so that they both have a 10.0 UVB, then I would stack the enclosures or set them up in different rooms. But for now just try to keep her alone and out of his sight and vice versa.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
ninjadewd":kqgrl8kt said:
I put together 3 imgur threads so you can easily view the pictures together.

Male Beardie https://imgur.com/gallery/DKal6

I've copied and uploaded images of the boy :
ninjas_male_juvenile.png

ninjas_male_juvenile_2.png

he looks relatively good to me, which is surprising based on the neglect they had to endure prior to your rescue of them, I'd say he's been eating the lion's share of any food offered.
Also he's a CBD.


Female Beardie https://imgur.com/gallery/02Xf9

I've copied and uploaded images of the little girl :
ninjas_female_hatchling.png

ninjas_female_hatchling_closeup.png

She's in better shape than I expected too. But has failed to thrive if same age as the boy because of dominance issues and the other issues already pointed out. She's definitely more alert in the other images in the imgur gallery than I expected too and certainly not looking too far gone to save IMO.

She's also a CBD and much younger than male who has developed more or less normally, while she definitely still has the main characteristics in a sub 2 month old hatchling CBD.




Food and Gear https://imgur.com/gallery/NjGBJ

I just weighed the female on a very accurate scale my friend let me borrow. She weighed in at 8.2g, which puts me at a loss for what to do with the liquid cal. The bottle says to apply half a teaspoon to food 3 times a week and half a teaspoon to fresh water daily, but I fear if I pit it in her water she could overdose, and she rarely eats her food. Should I continue letting her lick a small drop every morning?

Re the Flukers Liquid Calcium , there have been reports of bad batches, put a couple of drops on the top of your hand , if it starts burning the skin DO NOT USE IT !!!
http://board.reptilesmagazine.com/Topic177134.aspx
from their web site
https://flukerfarms.com/flukers-liquid-calcium/
from their own information 6% conc Calcium = 6g calcium/100ml = 60g/L

For VetaFarm CalciVet conc calcium is 33g calcium / L

Fluker's stuff is 2x more concentrated.

VetaFarm oral dosing is 4 drops / 100g lizard body weight (0.2ml for a 100g lizard) = Daily dose.

Flukers' oral dosing will be 2 drops / 100g lizard body weight ( 0.1ml for a 100g lizard to give equiv amount of calcium).





You said the diet needs changing, specifically she needs slow moving live food. Locally all that is sold is adult crickets, super worms, and mealworms. I know that as a baby (well, she is at least 2 and a half months old) she shouldn't have superworms, and NO bearded dragons can have mealworms, and the crickets are far too big for her.
Crickets it is , for her I'd be looking for small size (about 8mm long) , or Repashi BugPie made up as a paste as her staple source of insect protein and insects fats.
If you indicate what state you are in, we can collectively point you at live insect suppliers who can send you a regular supply of appropriate sized crickets or roaches or BSL lavae or silkworms ordered online and sent by mail order if your local petshop only carries the wrong kinds or sizes of live insects (buying piecemeal from a petshop is the most expensive way of getting you live insects).



I don't think there is much I can order online that will be big enough for her to eat. However I didn't know freeze dried crickets were so harmful, whenever I handle Fenix I sometimes give him one has a treat, and it never seems to cause him any trouble, he actually seems to enjoy it a lot. Perhaps I could get some baby food and make a paste with it, some calcium powder, and some of the canned or freshly dead crickets?

It is also worth noting that until I get another UVB fixture ( I don't think putting something in the second slot of the dual fixture would be very beneficial) I have the 2 new beardies share the 18" strip and give fenix the smaller fixture. When the 2 new beardies wake up at 9am, the name has the strip, and the female has the 5.0, and when fenix wakes at 12 I give him the 5.0 and the other 2 share the strip, like I said, this is temporary.

<<< I have all my gang's lights on powerboards and a timer, they switch on automatically at 6am and off at 10pm.
<<< unless the 5% compact in a reflector dome or reflector hood needs to be inside 6 inches from him , otherwise its worthless to him wrt UVA & UVB.


If I give the male liquid cal in the morning (haven't weighed him yet because the scale is too small) is it safe to dust his crickets every other day? I want to cure the calcium deficiency asap but I don't want to overdose them on calcium either.
<<< the is not a lot calcium on a dusted insect who is dusted properly (ie lightly) , so I would dust the insects (LIGHTLY) as well , and keep an eye on the color of the dragon's urates. If they take on a slight orange tinge, back off with the dusting.

I sanitize by soaking the utensils I use on the female everytime I use them in some scolding hot water for about 10 minutes. The utensils included tweezers, a syringe, and medical scissors to cut her pieces of food into proper sizes, but the only one of these utensils she shares with the male is the syringe. (The only thing that comes in contact with the rescues and fenix is my hands. And every time I touch a dragon I immediately wash my hands in warm water and use hand sanitizer. But might get some cheap gloves just because if somehow they do have ADV I am REALLY scared it could contaminate fenix. It isn't airborne is it? I'm pretty sure I know what a healthy fecal and unhealthy fecal looks like, but if you would like I can post pictures of the decals as soon as I get them. The female produced one earlier and it was just yellow mush with a small white urate and clear liquid surrounding it. (Too much calcium?, or not absorbing it efficiently?)

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this, it is definitely a relief to have more information provided to me from more experienced owners. I'm trying to learn, but I don't want my inexperience to cost these dragons their lives. I called my vet and he said a fecal test could cost about $20, but if they have to send it to the lab they dont know how pricey it will get, so I might have them look at it.
<<< that's pretty economical . I'd get fecal matter samples for both rescues and take it from there for starters , they may or may not be infected with GIT parasites.
They claim to not have a whole lot of experience with exotics and reptiles in general, but are capable of doing a basic fecal test. Is this worth spending money on?
<<<< IMO Yes. They are perfectly capable of consulting by email, phone with a vet who is experienced with reptiles (bearded dragons in particular) and if competent will do so for clinical guidance.
Or should I spend the money somewhere else where it is needed. I hate the idea of begging for money with something such as a gofundme, but if I really need to I guess I will, but I doubt it will get any traction.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
As for ADV, the dragons may or may not have it but dragons can be carriers and display symptoms at any time in their life or live quite a long time with it. So the male could have it without showing any signs at all, or neither may have it.


And no, she's not a microlepidota, just a stunted p.vitticeps.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
AHBD":1xq87j1i said:
Hi there, your tank set ups look great ! Just put something under the one on the left to get it up closer to the uvb bulb, and put the basing log under the uvb and heat bulb. The male doesn't look bad at all, female may or may not have ADV but if she has it then he will 99.9% surely have it.

Your 15" dragon looks great, be VERY careful that you never handle him or his things after handling the 2 new ones. Always take care of Feinix first.

You're doing a great job with them, give them live feeders but careful that the bugs are no longer than the space between their eyes, that's critical for the little one.

Yep , Your bigger juvenile Fenix looks very good to me , a picture of health.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
ninjadewd":39ucq398 said:
Also I have been testing temps in all locations of all tanks. They all come out to be pretty much the same

Basking spot = high 90's to 100

Cool side of tank = mid 70's

And the spot where they usually hang out when not basking is right around 80.

My night temps are in the low to mid 70's. I haven't used the heatpad on the female yet because I fear it would overheat her in the day and hydration is already a problem. Maybe I should run it at night? Its attached to the bottom of her tank under the middle of her green carpet. She usually sleep there so I'm not sure if its a good idea.

Here are some pics of fenix and his terrarium, and the other 2 dragons sharing the strip. When I went to take the pics I noticed had taken and was holding a large breath which made him seem about an inch wider, I don't know what this meant, but right after I noticed it, he opened his mouth wider than I've ever seen a BD open one before, his jaw was almost completely vertical, it only lasted a second but when he closed it he puffed his beard out as far as he coukd , however it didn't turn black. I captured pics if the strange behavior. He recently began shedding his chest area and his legs, when he shed his back he puffed his beard in and out very quickly and rolled his head to tear the skin on his back, maybe this is the same thing?

Fenix (read picture description) https://imgur.com/gallery/xaaAU

Odd behavior (read picture description) https://imgur.com/gallery/89S5H

Tank setups (after lights have to be shared) https://imgur.com/gallery/n2PuI

I'd arrange the side by side vivs so the tops are level and arrange a basking spot in each that is the correct distance from the UVB tube . See previous post for working this out.Remove the flyscreen mesh lid , the fine mesh blocks about 40% of the UV.
A piece of cardboard or a piece of folded A3 paper between the two vivs will block the girl's view of the little boy.



I really wish the heat fixture that came with the nalea tank wasn't so big, it would allow for much better light distribution if it was smaller. I would swap it out with the females 2 fixture but it wouldn't allow them to share the strip. I have been to several local stores to see if they sell any cheaper UVB bulbs, but the only UV bulbs I can find are the strips at the pet store.
<<< don't inflict a cheaper shop brand UVB tube or globe on your dragons , these have very bad UV spectrums and are not made properly , you pay a cheap price expect to get a rubbish / bad / dangerous globe
brands to avoid are :
Nomoy Pet,
Zilla,
All Living Things,
Reptile-One,
Nat Geo ,
Sparkzoo reptispar,
Repti-Zoo ,
Natural Selections (in green boxes) ,
all of which are cheap Chinese clones made very cheaply using very poor quality quartz glass and cheap phosphors ==> very poor UV spectrum produced including UVC and bad parts of the UVB band.

Only brands that are good are Exo Terra, Zoo Med, Arcadia.
 

ninjadewd

Member
Original Poster
I replied and for some reason it didn't submit?

If I get a fecal done, regardless of the results, is it still okay to use a dewormer or something for worms and parasites?

Can the females body handle meds like dewormer?

Was Fenix's odd puffing up and body inflating him trying to shed? every few minutes he puffs it up a little bit, it is colorless though, this si the first day he has ever one this.
 
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