Sunken fat pads

Hi, We have a beardie Brick Top who has just reached one year old. We have had him for 6 months now and he was very active, very healthy, loved his greens and roaches but in the past month he has really turned.

We have had landscapers working on the garden and making a lot of noise (he looks out across the room to the garden too) and he stopped eating as well, then all together about then. He also had a few poos before then with pink in his urate. We took him to the vet and sent a sample to PALS, which showed moderate for Coccidia and Nematode Ova. He has also pooed with a lot of water for a while, but I thought that was because he was well hydrated (I always give him water every day via a needless syringe)

Every time we take him to the vet he sees someone different, but all are reptile vets (we travel quite far to get him there). First I was giving him reptoboost and Critical Care, along with liquid calcium. They gave us Sulfatrim to give him 0.1ml every other day, which we have been doing for 2 weeks now. We have since taken him to the vet again (by this point he hadn't eaten for almost 2 weeks on the second visit) and they suggested bathing him in Nutrobol and feeding him 8ml of Carnivore Care, as well as giving him a dewormer for 5 days (completed yesterday). We've been doing that since Wednesday (its Monday as I write this).

He was active as always until about 2 days ago when he started to slow down, and yesterday when I noticed his eyes were sunken. Ive been giving him water but I felt guilty that maybe it wasnt enough and he was dehydrated. He drank a lot of water yesterday and we bathed him twice, but he also pooed twice. the first with a well formed urate. He hadn't gone for a long time then twice in one day.

This morning I woke up to find the nastiest poo I have ever seen. So much water, some undigested greens that I managed to feed him a week previously and just lots of pale green/whitish slush. Today his fat pads are sunken now and his eyes are more sunken too. He is displaying a grey/black beard all of the time and the landscapers are back making a lot of stressful noise in the garden. I just read that if he hasn't eaten for ages you shouldn't give him protein too soon and ease him in to it, but we've been forcing him to have Carnivore Care for 5 days now. Are we killing him? I don't know what to do now. I am taking him back to the vet but he keeps getting worse and I can't help but feel like its down to us.

His hot side of the tank is 100f, he spends most of his time under the light. He has an Arcadia 10% UVB. We fitted a reflector to it yesterday. He was totally fine a few weeks ago. He was eating spring greens, pak choi, roaches, crickets and occassionally silk worms when we could get them. He was active and always wanted to come out of his tank and we would let him run around the living room (lizard proofed) but he would normally walk to the french doors and stare out in to the garden.

I am devastated. We had a bearded dragon before, who was 2 years old when we got him, and it became evident that he suffered MBD previously. We had him a little over a year before he died from anemia. It totally broke our hearts and now its happening again with what we thought was a perfectly healthy beardie. We have a zero on the way soon who we have paid for and we have been planning to get for literally months (we always wanted two bearded dragons, housed separately of course) but they wont give a refund and we now feel we are probably incapable to keeping a bearded dragon healthy.

We are about to take him to the vet again, but I am wondering if any of you guys will be able to point out if we are doing anything horribly wrong or if we are just unlucky.

Poor little guy.

Were the vets seen so far herp/reptile vets ? or exotics or general pet vets ?

Sounds to me like he needs another fecal float done and fast (any vet can do that) and I wouldn't be surprised if he's loaded with parasites and suffering , you might get some handy hints and insites here : viewtopic.php?f=45&t=235387&start=105
and http://veterinaryherpetologist.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/bearded-dragon-health-parasites-and.html

Treatment of coccidiosis generally involves three components.

1.Kill the coccidiosis to stop further gut damage, this requires an anticoccidial medication. Which one are you using ?
There are two kinds of drugs:
>>> coccidiostats which slow the development of the coccidiosis. This allows the animal to develop immunity to coccidiosis without being overwhelmed. - I think you are well past this point.
>>> second kind are coccidiocides, one such medication would be Toltrazuril 2.5% w/v (Baycox) which will kill the coccidiosis. - your dragon needs this.

2.control the bacterial disruption to the gut, this is treated by antibiotic therapy. (this is presumeably the job of Albon or other antibiotics (as mentioned by Ellen).)

3.TLC, providing a warm dry environment and following any medication advice. It is advisable at this stage to follow on with provision of multivitamins and a probiotic to restore gut flora.

you also need to keep trying to get nutrition into him (as you have been doing).

Here is a list of reptile vets which includes vets in and outside of the USA : viewtopic.php?f=45&t=234369&p=1803862&hilit=melissa#p1803862

So you need to find a competent vet who knows his stuff and need to take a three pronged strategy :
1) anticoccidial medication
>>> Albon is not very effective , Ponazuril compounded as a 90mg/ml solution and given at 30-45mg/kg was very effective in treating coccidia.
2) antibiotic to treat secondary gut infection
3) regular sterilization of the dragon's viv and all it's furnature ( Some here have had success with steam cleaning (you have to be very thorough) and remove all porous objects and do this every time he poos. There is some evidence that F10SC 1:125 dilution is effective against protozoans too.
I'd use both.

I think and hope (without yet seeing him and his setup) that you can save him and rehabilitate him IF YOU get proper meds for him from a good reptile vet.

kingofnobbys":e0i6w8fd said:

Poor little guy.

Were the vets seen so far herp/reptile vets ? or exotics or general pet vets ?

Sounds to me like he needs another fecal float done and fast (any vet can do that) and I wouldn't be surprised if he's loaded with parasites and suffering , you might get some handy hints and insites here : viewtopic.php?f=45&t=235387&start=105
and http://veterinaryherpetologist.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/bearded-dragon-health-parasites-and.html

Treatment of coccidiosis generally involves three components.

1.Kill the coccidiosis to stop further gut damage, this requires an anticoccidial medication. Which one are you using ?
There are two kinds of drugs:
>>> coccidiostats which slow the development of the coccidiosis. This allows the animal to develop immunity to coccidiosis without being overwhelmed. - I think you are well past this point.
>>> second kind are coccidiocides, one such medication would be Toltrazuril 2.5% w/v (Baycox) which will kill the coccidiosis. - your dragon needs this.

2.control the bacterial disruption to the gut, this is treated by antibiotic therapy. (this is presumeably the job of Albon or other antibiotics (as mentioned by Ellen).)

3.TLC, providing a warm dry environment and following any medication advice. It is advisable at this stage to follow on with provision of multivitamins and a probiotic to restore gut flora.

you also need to keep trying to get nutrition into him (as you have been doing).

Here is a list of reptile vets which includes vets in and outside of the USA : viewtopic.php?f=45&t=234369&p=1803862&hilit=melissa#p1803862

So you need to find a competent vet who knows his stuff and need to take a three pronged strategy :
1) anticoccidial medication
>>> Albon is not very effective , Ponazuril compounded as a 90mg/ml solution and given at 30-45mg/kg was very effective in treating coccidia.
2) antibiotic to treat secondary gut infection
3) regular sterilization of the dragon's viv and all it's furnature ( Some here have had success with steam cleaning (you have to be very thorough) and remove all porous objects and do this every time he poos. There is some evidence that F10SC 1:125 dilution is effective against protozoans too.
I'd use both.

I think and hope (without yet seeing him and his setup) that you can save him and rehabilitate him IF YOU get proper meds for him from a good reptile vet.

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Thank you for your response. I checked the list and we have been taking our beardie to one of the vets listed. We took him in earlier and they saw that he was lethargic and his fat pads were low but weighed him and he is 5g heavier then last week. They suggested he be hospitalised and they do a blood test on him, which we should hopefully find out from tomorrow.

I thought the Sulfatrim was for the coccidia? I have just been following vets instructions. I hope his stay at the vets where they can keep a close eye on him and treat him will see an improvement.

Did they do a culture and sensitivity? The Sulfatrim is another Antiprotozoan medication, but it's only used to treat coccidia that is cultured and found to be a strain that is sensitive to sulfa drugs only. If they did no culture and sensitivity to find this out, then Sulfatrim is a very poor choice of treatment, as it usually takes a month-long dose, every single day, which can just be tremendously harsh on the dragon, and then he'll most likely need another round of Antiprotozoan medication after finishing it because it only treats I believe 2 total strains of Coccidia, where Toltrazuril (Ponazuril) should be though of as a "broad-spectrum" antiprotozoan med...Did they tell you what his Coccidia count was? Usually they say low, medium, high, etc...That they can determine from the fecal tests, but only a culture and sensitivity will diagnose the strain of coccidia and what Antiprotozoan medication will be effective against it. So if they did do a culture and sensitivity and then chose Sulfatrim that's great, but if they did not do a culture and sensitivity then he should be on Toltrazuril (Ponazuril), as it should be effective against most common strains of Coccidia very quickly, it's only a 3 day med and they're generally 100% better in the 3 days, versus 28 days of Sulfatrim, where they are typically skinny, lethargic, and weak after the 28 day course, and then need the Toltrazuril (Ponazuril) anyway!

I don't think so, I've never heard of culture sensitivity. The PALS results said the Coccidia was Moderate. We have been instructed to give him Sulfatrim 0.1ml every other day, which we have for 2 weeks. I will absolutely speak to them tomorrow if they can use the other treatment. If the other treatment only take 3 uses and is effective, why would they use Sulfatrim? This actually angers me, that we could be treating him much more effectively and reducing his suffering. I just don't understand.

I agree, Ponazuril or Totrazuril [ same thing ] is the way to go. Some vets are slow to change an old method /medicine + get with the newer stuff. Too bad because the sulfa drugs can very quickly take a toll on liver + kidneys. That's why his poo is strange + he's so thirsty. I'd stop the sulfa drugs immediately and let him recup. some natural gut flora . A probiotic will be helpful along with plenty of hydration + anything good that you can get him to eat.

I will ring the vet first thing tomorrow, asking about Toltrazuril. We are in the UK, but I take it this is still available here too? He will be at the vets until Thursday now and I'm starting to feel like if anything happens, well, I don't know. I just thought (once again) I was doing what was best for him, but it obviously isn't. I have seen that you can buy Toltrazuril 2.5% via a website called Beardeddragon.co but its based in the states, I don't mind paying the high postage but it will take forever to get here. I hope I call tomorrow and it turns out they're already treating him with the better stuff. What if they don't do it? I feel so helpless.

I'm very skeptical of vets who opt for a long drawn out or less effective treatment , that will likely require many more doses and more vet visits which will all cost $. Even reptile vets seem very hit and miss unfortunately.

Don't forget to purge his viv, and very thoroughly sterilize everything he comes into contact in it, else you are likely to find he's reinfected himself and you'll be right back at square one.

I feel skeptical too. I've taken out all the porous decor (wood etc) about 2 weeks ago and kept in only the stuff that is sanitisable. I've been giving all of it a good steam clean (including his bath after every bath time) and I will do so again before he comes back. I just feel so worried, he was just not himself when we left him, and this is going to cost us £360 over the next few days, not to already include the £30 for each visit to the vet (we've been 4 times now in the past 6 weeks) I don't begrudge paying to make him healthy at all, but I really do if it is not the best and unnecessary suffering. I wish I knew all this at the start of it all, ordered the better medicine and not given him the Sulfatrim. I feel like I've completely let him down.

It would be available in the U.K. I hate to hear that they're keeping him, but hopefully he'll improve while he's there. Some go downhill quickly in an unfamiliar place with tests + needles + things.

When he was first off food because of the commotion outside your garden he probably could have gotten over it in a week or so but all the meds. the vets have pumped in him may have really made him worse. I hope with all my heart that I'm wrong and that he'll improve while in their care but I'm skeptical.

AHBD":3bgwz2sy said:

It would be available in the U.K. I hate to hear that they're keeping him, but hopefully he'll improve while he's there. Some go downhill quickly in an unfamiliar place with tests + needles + things.

When he was first off food because of the commotion outside your garden he probably could have gotten over it in a week or so but all the meds. the vets have pumped in him may have really made him worse. I hope with all my heart that I'm wrong and that he'll improve while in their care but I'm skeptical.

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omg, me too. I didn't want him to stay overnight (they wanted us to take him in last week, but decided to give us the Carnivore Care instead) but this time we (again) thought it was best but I was worried about the stressful environment. I want to run over there now and take him away. I so so so wish I could go back in time.

If he has been a healthy boy up until now he should be able to get through this. Do you have pics of your little dude ? Was he always a good weight ?

I'm sorry , I think I caused you more stress. And of course you're doing what you felt is necessary to help him.

He was always a super healthy boy (especially compared to our previous beardie Trevor, who had problems since the day we had him, bless him, we miss him tremendously ) He was around 400g, about 17in, used to eat greens from my hand and went mad for his roaches. He did start to slow down on the roaches but we figured that was down to maturity and preference of salads. He was very active! We let him run around the living room almost every day. I will find some photos of him and upload them in a sec from my phone. Hes a handsome boy. I don't think hes ever really liked us but we love him! I really hate all of this so much. Its gonna be hard to sleep tonight, itching to call the vets tomorrow.

These are older photos of him from about a month ago

This is 3 days ago

This is him drinking in the bath yesterday morning

I didn't take any photos of him today, but he looked worse