Coccidia /Albon not working

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hill202

Hatchling Member
I do my own fecal testing. The vets in my area want too much money for a fecal. I bought a microscope, fecasol and test cups. I purchased the book " Understanding Reptile Parasites. It is very easy to do. I am 100% certain that I am properly identifying the parasites. She has Coccidia and pinworms.

She weighs 50 grams. She is 6 months old.

She has been on 5% Albon.
.05 ml dosage for 3 days on, 3 days off and 3 days on. With a dose of Panacur at the beginning and end of the schedule.

Her last dosage was last Friday 7/28, and this morning, the Coccidia count is still very high, with a small amount of pinworms.

Her enclosure is as follows:
4x2x2 "foxfire" enclosure
Tile substrate
I have 2 reptisun 10.0 fixtures about 8 inches away from her( usually only one on at a time)
There are 2 CHE bulbs mounted also. There is also a basking bulb mounted as well
I have household dimmer switches on everything, mounted on the box and the temp gradient is very easy to control. Basking at 105 and the cool side is in the low 80's.

We have just recently starting force feeding her Dubia roaches. If you get one in her mouth she will eat it.

Questions:
Should I up the Albon dosage?
Should I start a new schedule of Albon?
Is there a better med than Albon? less harsh?
Will Flagyl help?

To avoid a long, rambling post. I am going to give some more background info under a separate post. In hopes of offering some more insight to our situation.

Thanks for any advice.
 

hill202

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
I am going to refrain from bashing the breeder that she was purchased from but I think some of these background details are important.

We purchased her online, from a breeder, 2 months ago. We paid for one on the website and we were contacted saying the one we paid for was sold. The breeder insisted that the one we got was a much better dragon due to her good temperament.

When we received the dragon, she was almost 5 months old and weighed 48 grams. My research shows that was under weight.

Upon arrival she would eat a little Kale and 1 roach a day for a few days and then she stopped eating all together. Three weeks into this, we contacted the breeder for help. The breeder advised it was parasites ( no fecal had been done at this time). The breeder sent a small amount of Albon and Panacur. We started the meds but after the third day we stopped. She was looking very bad. We contacted the breeder and was advised to continue the meds.

This was the point where I started doing my own fecal testing. I contacted beautifuldragon.com and ordered some more Albon and Panacur. The new Albon looked very different from what the breeder sent. We were instructed to keep the new Albon in the fridge. The breeder had advised to not refrigerate the Albon. My point is, the breeders Albon may have been no good. It looked old.

This breeder also advised to use playsand from Home depot as a substrate and of course the entire internet states not to use it and I did'nt.

I made several mistakes throughout this process and I thought I had everything ready upon the dragon's arrival. I just did not anticipate receiving a sick dragon.

I guess I did want to bash a little.
 

hill202

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Last one...The first fecal i did showed an amazing amount of coccidia. I have seen online, examples of a high coccidia count. This one was 3 or 4 times worse than any of those examples.

Thanks again.
 

traildrifterphalanx

Sub-Adult Member
I'm going to step back and allow those more experienced with medications chime in, but are you sure on the age? 50g for 6 months old is very undersized. That's about the size of a 2-4 month old dragon. I know you stated the dragon is from a breeder and you've had her about 2 months and stated she hasn't been eating well which may play a factor.

Just thought I'd bring it up as a point to consider. For comparison, my 5mo old is about 250g.

As far as medication input, I am unsure the name of the drug mine was on (looked like pepto bismol) for coccidia. She was on it for 1 week, a month later was tested again, still had it, so was on it for 2 weeks and she appears to be clean now. I have not yet done a fecal to confirm, but just generally they seem a lot "healthier"
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, sorry your baby is not well. At 5 months + 48 grams that was kind of a red flag. What is her length ? Was she lethargic from the start aside from not eating well ?

Albon is very harsh, many vets now use Ponazuril or Toltrazuril. Some claim that it works in 2-3 days and is much easier on their system.

But the breeder either sold you a runt or just has small dragons of which many may be unwell. It doesn't mean you're bashing them to disclose who they were but of course that's up to you.

Try offering baby food sweet potato + green beans to get some nutrition in her ....you can mix a bit of calcium powder in so she's getting that very important nutrient.

Can you post a few pics of her as well as her set up ? Here's how :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload pics
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I agree that at 6 months old your dragon is extremely small, either due to the parasites and meds causing lack of appetite and absorbtion of nutrition, or something else is going on and you absolutely do need to see an experienced reptile vet.

If that much albon hasn't helped the coccidia at all, I would not give anymore, because it's obviously effecting her appetite negatively (you should be giving probiotics as well to try and normalize her gastrointestinal flora). Toltrazuril usually takes care of coccidia very quickly and easily. I would not mess around with flagyl, as it is a very harsh drug and shouldn't be necessary to treat coccidia. But honestly, I don't think you should do anything else until having blood work and a gram stain done by an experienced vet.

I'm not saying it's not possible to successfully diagnose parasites/worms/coccidia on your own (I have a master's degree in Animal Health Science and worked at the Animal Diagnostic Lab at Penn State), it's simple microbiology. However, you haven't done a gram stain (floats and wet mounts are not the most efficient testing methods, especially microscopy if you're not trained in microbiology). But honestly my concern is that your dragon is extremely small for her age, I mean extremely small, at 3 months old my newer boy is larger than your 6 month old. So my point is that something else is very likely going on beyond coccidia, or she isn't tolerating the meds you're using or the particular coccidia she has or the load is too much for the Albon or Panacur. Either way she's stunted and has been continuously sick since coming from the breeder, so I think at this point it's time to pay for a visit to an experienced reptile vet, have them run a fecal with a gram stain, and I'd also have a full blood panel done based on her failure to thrive. Something else is likely going on that you cannot see at home, and if the breeder was sketchy to begin with, I would also encourage an Adenovirus test just to be safe.
 

hill202

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
In regards to her age, the breeder has the birth dates posted. There is no doubt this breeder pushed the runt off on me. They kept steering me back to this one.

I have been giving her probiotics as well.

The breeder is Collette at Atomic Lizard Ranch. She maybe everyone's friend on here, I don't know, but she did us wrong.

I'll get some pics posted.
 

hill202

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
EllenD":cct3dpir said:
I agree that at 6 months old your dragon is extremely small, either due to the parasites and meds causing lack of appetite and absorbtion of nutrition, or something else is going on and you absolutely do need to see an experienced reptile vet.

If that much albon hasn't helped the coccidia at all, I would not give anymore, because it's obviously effecting her appetite negatively (you should be giving probiotics as well to try and normalize her gastrointestinal flora). Toltrazuril usually takes care of coccidia very quickly and easily. I would not mess around with flagyl, as it is a very harsh drug and shouldn't be necessary to treat coccidia. But honestly, I don't think you should do anything else until having blood work and a gram stain done by an experienced vet.

I'm not saying it's not possible to successfully diagnose parasites/worms/coccidia on your own (I have a master's degree in Animal Health Science and worked at the Animal Diagnostic Lab at Penn State), it's simple microbiology. However, you haven't done a gram stain (floats and wet mounts are not the most efficient testing methods, especially microscopy if you're not trained in microbiology). But honestly my concern is that your dragon is extremely small for her age, I mean extremely small, at 3 months old my newer boy is larger than your 6 month old. So my point is that something else is very likely going on beyond coccidia, or she isn't tolerating the meds you're using or the particular coccidia she has or the load is too much for the Albon or Panacur. Either way she's stunted and has been continuously sick since coming from the breeder, so I think at this point it's time to pay for a visit to an experienced reptile vet, have them run a fecal with a gram stain, and I'd also have a full blood panel done based on her failure to thrive. Something else is likely going on that you cannot see at home, and if the breeder was sketchy to begin with, I would also encourage an Adenovirus test just to be safe.

So, you're saying I should not quit my day job to start testing feces...LOL

Thanks for the advice. You certainly have the credentials. My wife just made an appointment with a vet for 4:30 today.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Good idea to have a vet do it, I was going to add that to my post ....be sure it's a vet that really knows reptiles and if they see that there's still a problem ask if the baby can have a break from the meds. , and to resume with the meds. we mentioned rather than Albon. In his condition + size I don't know that he should have a blood draw though.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
I just wanted to mention too that baby's generally do better if their first new enclosure is smaller + not as overwhelming. Your tank is beautiful but a lethargic + ill beardie may not be able to move around + thrive in it. Having raised beardies for over 20 years I can tell you that simpler + lower is better. Here's a pic of how I used to set up my hatchlings. A large clear plastic tote like this with criss crossing branches. They thrive + have no trouble finding their food which can be dropped right near them . They can be reared in there until they are about 13" long. Separated of course as they grew from the size in this picture.

https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29895/full

Something like this with just a large branch or two would be ideal.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
hill202":3sor191k said:
EllenD":3sor191k said:
I agree that at 6 months old your dragon is extremely small, either due to the parasites and meds causing lack of appetite and absorbtion of nutrition, or something else is going on and you absolutely do need to see an experienced reptile vet.

If that much albon hasn't helped the coccidia at all, I would not give anymore, because it's obviously effecting her appetite negatively (you should be giving probiotics as well to try and normalize her gastrointestinal flora). Toltrazuril usually takes care of coccidia very quickly and easily. I would not mess around with flagyl, as it is a very harsh drug and shouldn't be necessary to treat coccidia. But honestly, I don't think you should do anything else until having blood work and a gram stain done by an experienced vet.

I'm not saying it's not possible to successfully diagnose parasites/worms/coccidia on your own (I have a master's degree in Animal Health Science and worked at the Animal Diagnostic Lab at Penn State), it's simple microbiology. However, you haven't done a gram stain (floats and wet mounts are not the most efficient testing methods, especially microscopy if you're not trained in microbiology). But honestly my concern is that your dragon is extremely small for her age, I mean extremely small, at 3 months old my newer boy is larger than your 6 month old. So my point is that something else is very likely going on beyond coccidia, or she isn't tolerating the meds you're using or the particular coccidia she has or the load is too much for the Albon or Panacur. Either way she's stunted and has been continuously sick since coming from the breeder, so I think at this point it's time to pay for a visit to an experienced reptile vet, have them run a fecal with a gram stain, and I'd also have a full blood panel done based on her failure to thrive. Something else is likely going on that you cannot see at home, and if the breeder was sketchy to begin with, I would also encourage an Adenovirus test just to be safe.

So, you're saying I should not quit my day job to start testing feces...LOL

Thanks for the advice. You certainly have the credentials. My wife just made an appointment with a vet for 4:30 today.

Lol, I just literally laughed out loud, no that's not quite what I meant...?

I'm actually impressed that you took the initiative to buy supplies and equipment and actually read up on diagnosing reptile parasites, that's a serious commitment to your beardie!
What I'm saying is there comes a time when what you're doing isn't working, it's gone on too long, and it's time to pass it on to the person with the medical degree that treats sick beardies every day for their livelihood!

I have 3 beardies, 4 smaller parrots of various species, and 9 American/English hybrid budgies that I bred and hand-raised myself...Along with 10 retired breeder budgies living in an indoor aviary that I built in my house (I grew up in a bird breeding family and bred different parakeet species for years, now retired at 37, lol, too much headache and no money). I also have a small lab/medical treatment room in the same area as the aviary, and I keep a large number of prescription meds on hand, syringes, IV starter kits and bags of fluids, etc. I actually used to do my own fecal microscopy, gram stains, and also took cultures and did my own streak plating (microbiology and physiology/anatomy and pharmacology were my areas of emphasis). Streak plating cultures is actually a very efficient way to diagnose a localized infection from a culture. I used to do crop swabs/flushes, beak swabs, nostril swabs, vent swabs, etc. and then plate them...The issue is that you really need to be educated in bacterial and fungal morphology to properly identify an infection. You diagnosed coccidia, but did you diagnose that based on the morphology you went through, like stain color, shape, etc. or did you compare what you saw to a photo in a book? That's where it gets dangerous, because (and it's not that I doubt you or your intelligence at all, really I don't) if you don't go through the elemental microbiology and the basic steps to identifying a bacterium through the common morphology characteristics, then you're risking misdiagnosing the bacterial infection. You could be treating her for coccidia and the reason she's not gotten better after two rounds of meds for coccidia is because she has a different bacterial infection. Albon and Panacur are not broad-spectrum antibiotics, so they aren't going to treat both gram positive and gram negative bacteria, nor aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, etc. That's where I'm coming from. Even the PhD and MD level Animal Microbiologists that I used to work with at Penn State (I hate Penn State, always have, I have been a Notre Dame fan since birth, even though I was born and raised in "Happy Valley", yeah right, lol...But Penn State is the best agricultural university in the country, and actually has had one of the premier avian influenza laboratories in the world since the late 90's, so I couldn't go wrong working there), these doctors that held both an MD in veterinary science and multiple PhD's in microbiology, animal physiology, and infectious disease science, even they go through basis microbiology and bacterial morphology 101 when identifying a bacterium under a scope. Now these are guys that can look at an unstained, mixed bacterial culture under a scope and properly identify every single bacterium in the sample within a few seconds of looking at them, honestly they're freaks of nature. But if I learned nothing else working there for the almost 3 years that I did it was ALWAYS start with basics. So they would do a streak plate, let it grow, get a small sample and do a gram stain, put it under the scope, and actually start by writing down cell wall stain color, shape, aggregation, plasticity, etc. It was like my intro to microbiology class my freshman year of college. But they know that it is so easy to misdiagnose a bacterial infection if doing it without a computer or other testing equipment (a lot of old school Microbiologists think that the new computer testing technology is cheating, lol, made my job much harder but I learned a lot).

You diagnosed "Coccidia" in your beardie's fecal sample by doing a float test, so you saw round bacterium and compared them to a chart in a book. You were probably correct. But coccidia is a very general term, and a float test does not tell you what type of cocci you're looking at, where as a culture, a streak plate, and then a gram stain does...As well as doing sensitivity tests on a plate with antibiotic discs to determine if the particular strain of Coccidia is resistant to Albon, which unfortunately is becoming more and more common...It could be Giardia, it could be any number of other specialized infections that a float test will not tell you.

The really big thing a float test doesn't tell you (besides any specific diagnosis of strains and what antibiotic will work to kill it) is what may have caused the infection. If you do a gram stain and through basic bacterial morphology you diagnose giardia, you know the infection arose from water or food that was infected, same with Escherichia coli and salmonella. But general "coccidia" lives normally in the intestinal walls of all bearded dragons for their entire lives, and only when something influences that general, normal resident "Coccidia" to replicate furiously, or something prevents the beardie's immune system from keeping the normal flora in check will a general coccidia "infection" cause illness. So what was her coccidia count? How do you know that the "coccidia" that you saw under the scope (as well as the pinworms) weren't just normal flora? And what factors made you choose Albon and Panacur to treat these bacterial and parasitic infections rather than using Toltrazuril or Sulfamethoxazole? These are the determinations and decisions that an untrained or inexperienced layman cannot make with authority or confidence.

I'm not going through this because I'm trying to bash you or anything, as I already told you I'm actually very impressed by your commitment to your beardie and your level of responsibility as a pet owner. I mean, you actually went out and bought a compound light microscope specifically to do medical testing on your beardie to keep her healthy. That's big time to me, and I have incredible respect for you. However, I have more respect for you (and for myself when in the same situation) for making an immediate appointment for your beardie with an experienced reptile vet when what you tried to do to yourself to help her didn't work. It takes a much bigger person to admit to themselves that they need help from others, from professionals, because what they were able to do isn't working. I did this many, many times myself, and actually I haven't done any medical testing on my own in quite a while. I medicate my birds and beardies myself, and both my certified avian vet and my certified reptile vet will give me prescription meds to keep on hand, but I'm talking about giving antibiotics for a bad wound, giving an antifungal for an obvious fungal infection, etc. Anything even a bit invasive I take them to their vets. They just take blood, pop it in the computer, or take a fluid sample or a spun-down sample mixture and plop it in a Mass Spectrometer and BAM! they know what's wrong or a computer prints out the blood panel results...

To finish my ramble here, I honestly think there might be something else going on with your girl other than the parasites and the coccidia infection. She is extremely stunted, I mean I didn't catch how long she is head-to-tail at 6 months old, but my girl Iggy, who I got at my local Petco at 4 weeks old, was similar to what someone else listed above as their beardie at 6 months- she was around 15-16" long and weighed close to 300 grams. Not that there isn't variation in size, some are smaller than others, but I wouldn't call your beardie a "runt", I would call your beardie badly stunted.

I have heard of The Atomic Lizard Ranch before, I have no personal experience with them and have never seen even a review of them online, I only have heard the name in YouTube videos and advertisements online. I always assumed that they were one of the bigger beardie breeders out there, but as we are all finding out, when it comes to breeding bearded dragons, having a bigger operation that produces multiple morphs and sells quite a few dragons at higher than average prices does not necessarily equate with quality animals or good customer service after the sale. You haven't had her long enough to cause these issues, plus it seems like she arrived from the breeder to you with these issues, which infuriates me. First, offering a specific bearded dragon online with photos and an age, length, and weight description that is already sold, or selling it to someone else after you have already ordered it and paid for it (no doubt they sold the original beardie you picked out and paid for to someone in person who paid more for it) is a red flag right off the bat. Then sending you an obviously severely stunted and possibly sick dragon in place of the one you ordered is just horrible...

Did the breeder tell you that the beardie you had picked out, ordered, and paid for was already sold and then give you a choice of another beardie or a refund, or did the breeder just ship you this stunted, sick beardie without telling you first that you weren't getting the one you actually picked out and paid for? I hope they told you and gave you a choice, however, did they show you a photo of this girl along with her weight and age? That's where I'm confused, because if she's actually 6 months old, like it's absolutely proven that she's 6 months old and she arrived to you at this length and weight, then they ABSOLUTELY knew something was wrong with her..

I'm just having a lot of trouble understanding how a breeder as large as Atomic Lizard Ranch could actually sell and ship a 6 month old beardie that is as stunted as the one they sent you is in the first place, let alone trying to pass her off as being a healthy beardie. They knew damn well that her growth was severely stunted and something was wrong with her, as she looks like a 2-3 month old baby! These kind of breeder pracgives are becoming so commonplace that the first thing that came to my mind automatically was that the original beardie that you picked out wasn't even sold, they just made that up in order to get rid of a "problem beardie" which they apparently told you was in good shape or better quality than the other one, etc. That's just awful. You could show her to any reputable, experienced beardie breeder or knowledgeable owner and ask them to estimate her age, and they would all say "around 2 or so months old", just as everyone here did. I said 2-3, AHBD said "2-4", etc. So you have that on your side at least.

Good luck at the vet today, let us know how it goes. Be sure to tell the vet about the meds she has already been on and for how long with no improvement, as well as the situation with her age and the breeder...

Did you say that the breeder is a forum member here? I don't think there is anyone that would look at this beardie, find out that she is actually 6 months old, and here the story about how you ended up with her and that would still defend this breeder...I hope she responds, I'd love to hear her try to justify her size for her age, as well as selling her as a healthy beardie to anyone...
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
hill202":1jxsz0gs said:
I am going to refrain from bashing the breeder that she was purchased from but I think some of these background details are important.

We purchased her online, from a breeder, 2 months ago. We paid for one on the website and we were contacted saying the one we paid for was sold. The breeder insisted that the one we got was a much better dragon due to her good temperament.

When we received the dragon, she was almost 5 months old and weighed 48 grams. My research shows that was under weight.

Upon arrival she would eat a little Kale and 1 roach a day for a few days and then she stopped eating all together. Three weeks into this, we contacted the breeder for help. The breeder advised it was parasites ( no fecal had been done at this time). The breeder sent a small amount of Albon and Panacur. We started the meds but after the third day we stopped. She was looking very bad. We contacted the breeder and was advised to continue the meds.

This was the point where I started doing my own fecal testing. I contacted beautifuldragon.com and ordered some more Albon and Panacur. The new Albon looked very different from what the breeder sent. We were instructed to keep the new Albon in the fridge. The breeder had advised to not refrigerate the Albon. My point is, the breeders Albon was no good. It looked old.

This breeder also advised to use playsand from Home depot as a substrate and of course the entire internet states not to use it and I did'nt.

I made several mistakes throughout this process and I thought I had everything ready upon the dragon's arrival. I just did not anticipate receiving a sick dragon.

I guess I did want to bash a little.


Okay, I obviously just reread this post, I didn't realize that you posted these details below your initial post, sorry about that...

So she was just about 5 months old when you got her from the breeder (did she send you current photos of her size prior to you buying her? Did the photos actually represent her or another, appropriately sized dragon?)...She was 5 months old and weighed 50 grams when shipped by this breeder? That's all I need to know. As someone who owned a male beardie for almost 13 years, and who currently has a 9 month old girl and a 3 month old boy, both of which I got around a month old, it's quite obvious that Atomic Lizard Ranch screwed you over by sending a seriously stunted beardie with a serious health issue of some sort, and lied to you by telling you she was "better than the one you actually purchased because of her temperament"...That's total BS, and the breeder knew it. A 5 month old beardie who is healthy with no illnesses and of average size is going to weigh at least 200 grams, even a runt would be around that weight, as my female weighed 267 grams at exactly 5 months, I just looked in her notebook, and my baby boy who just turned 3 months old weighed 154 yesterday, and he dwarfs her judging from her photo...

What was her length when she arrived to you at 50 grams? How about now after a month or so of having her?

The problem is that parasites might explain her lack f growth since you got her, but it in no way explains her size at about 5 months when the breeder shipped her to you... That's criminal. Poor girl.
 

hill202

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Does anyone want to buy a microscope?

I'm kidding Ellen.

I want to talk further about the parasites but I wanted to address your questions regarding the breeder. I want to make sure I tell this accurately.

Her website has numbered pictures of the available dragons with their birth dates. You can click and pay after you've chosen. We picked one based mostly on color and age. We did not want one too young. We were contacted the next day and told that the one we chose and paid for, was sold. She was apologetic and she did offer a refund.. She started suggesting the one we received, right away. I inquired about a couple of others and she said they were not of good temperament. She said this one was the sweetest one and she felt was a good match for new owners. So, I agreed and she shipped it. She was born 1/23/2017. We received her June 6th. She was 48 grams.

She was 9.5 inches long when we received her. She is 10.5 inches now.

Again, in her defense she did offer a refund, before anything was shipped.

But, she had to have known that this one was severely under weight.

Thanks again for the detailed response. I'll post what the vet says when we return.
 

traildrifterphalanx

Sub-Adult Member
I haven't personally used that breeder, but from general reviews I'm seeing online nothing has stood out as bad. Seems more people recommend Atomic.
An inch of growth in 2 months isn't terrible, but she's still small for her age. She may have known she was not going to sell well so tried to push her off
 
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