My Lenny sick?!?! Please weigh in!

Yesterday Lenny started to display some odd physical signs. To me, they looked like intercostal retractions, but the best way I can describe it is almost like he was heaving, but his mouth was closed. I have a video, but no way to share it. I took him out and looked at him, he sat by me and started gaping, even though the house is 73. He didn't darken his beard, and there was no mucous or anything in his nose or mouth. As luck would have it, our vet is gone till the end of the month. Vet struggles seem to be the norm with a reptile, I'm discovering. We went to a new vet, who was actually very highly recommended for bearded dragons.

Lenny has lost weight since last week, he was 352g and today he was 341. I weigh him weekly or biweekly, so I hadn't yet noticed the drop. He has had less of an appetite for a while now, and I'd posted about it before, but as he was still minimally eating and pooping, it seemed like it may just be his growth slowing a bit. Today his fecal showed gram negative bacteria and the vet said his intestines felt inflamed! my poor, poor sweet baby! He was diagnosed with bacterial gasteoenteritis. This is what they gave him.

I asked how he could have gotten this, and didn't exactly receive an answer. I just want to prevent a recurrence. I asked if I should wipe out my dubia colony and the vet said no. I asked about whether I should raise his temps or offer night heat and the vet said it was not necessary. Does anyone have any other opinions about his recommendations or treatment? Any advice? Why is finding and seeing a decent herp vet so dang hard?! And why can nobody tell me Lenny's sex without probing him(or her) which I will not consent to?

Also, he has been very thirsty for the last couple of weeks. He drinks from a syringe and has been averaging 8-10ml A DAY. I offer water every night, and he used to have a drink regularly, but until recently, he hadn't ever taken that much. I don't force feed him, I put the first few drops on his nose, and once he licks one and realized what it is, I pretty much just let him lick them off the syringe tip until he loses interest.

Hi there, sorry to hear that Lenny is worrying you. How old is he and how often has he been doing the closed mouth puffing ? The action you described is sometimes associated with a slight respiratory infection, I've seen a beardie do that before. Sometimes it ends with a slight audible exhalation.

The Panacur is a dewormer, the Baytril [ aka Enrofloxacin ] is an antibiotic used for many things, including respiratory infection. And you know the Critical Care mix is a nutritional supplement.

A 10 gram weight loss is negligible, that can fluctuate in one day after a bowel movement, so try not to worry about that unless it keeps trending downward. Can you post a video of his breathing if it continues ? Oh, and post pics of of his/her rear end with Lenny's tail lifted straight in the air while he is on a flat surface [ think of a happy or alert dog with tail up, almost arched over it's back and I can probably tell you the gender.

I firstly want to commend you for acting right away regarding a vet visit, and I mean this as no shame or guilt to anyone else on this forum, myself included. So, kudos! Just nice to see someone coming back with the vet results right away so the more health experienced members can step in.

I'm no expert on the medications, but regarding sexing Lenny, I see no reason why probing is necessary.. If you're needing any reassurance, we at the forum can help with tail lift photos. My vet was able to confirm the genders of my 2 dragons by tail lift and checking pores (not always an indicator.) I know this is likely the least of your concerns now.

I do hope he feels better, I've been following Lenny threads since you got him.
Feel better, Lenny!

AHBD":22hjx5tt said:

Hi there, sorry to hear that Lenny is worrying you. How old is he and how often has he been doing the closed mouth puffing ? The action you described is sometimes associated with a slight respiratory infection, I've seen a beardie do that before. Sometimes it ends with a slight audible exhalation.

The Panacur is a dewormer, the Baytril [ aka Enrofloxacin ] is an antibiotic used for many things, including respiratory infection. And you know the Critical Care mix is a nutritional supplement.

A 10 gram weight loss is negligible, that can fluctuate in one day after a bowel movement, so try not to worry about that unless it keeps trending downward. Can you post a video of his breathing if it continues ? Oh, and post pics of of his/her rear end with Lenny's tail lifted straight in the air while he is on a flat surface [ think of a happy or alert dog with tail up, almost arched over it's back and I can probably tell you the gender.

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This is what he was doing with his belly. He only started yesterday evening, and I (a paramedic who deals with humans) thought it could be respiratory, and that maybe her aspirated some of the copious amounts of water he's been drinking.

https://youtu.be/ffkW4_nXSrM

I hope that works, I've never uploaded a YouTube vid before.

Then he did this with his mouth, so I still thought respiratory, because maybe his nose was stuffy, though I couldn't see any stuff. There were absolutely no noises associated with either observation. As soon as I get back home, I'll post his tail up!

Thank you for your input!

Sorry, this is the pic I meant to post about his mouth. This also started just yesterday.

Whoops, I also forgot to answer that he's about 9.5 months old, by best estimate from users here.

This was when we got him in November.

And this was within the past 1-2 weeks.

You're welcome. Lenny looks robust + healthy. I just looked back at some of your threads and saw that you had posted that hilarious story of Len's aversion to salads which made me laugh then and now :lol:

Anyway,that doesn't look like a respiratory thing in the video [ the movements I had in mind that I mentioned ] It may just be something that might be temporary but probably is related to his gastroenteritis. It may not be anything very serious and hopefully it will pass soon. Does the vet have any idea what the gram negative condition is ? Maybe salmonella ? Certain things are pretty common in reptiles and not a real health problem. Exactly what is he eating right now ?

AHBD":22do3qfb said:

You're welcome. Lenny looks robust + healthy. I just looked back at some of your threads and saw that you had posted that hilarious story of Len's aversion to salads which made me laugh then and now :lol:

Anyway,that doesn't look like a respiratory thing in the video [ the movements I had in mind that I mentioned ] It may just be something that might be temporary but probably is related to his gastroenteritis. It may not be anything very serious and hopefully it will pass soon. Does the vet have any idea what the gram negative condition is ? Maybe salmonella ? Certain things are pretty common in reptiles and not a real health problem. Exactly what is he eating right now ?

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The vet said that the weird retractions were akin to cramping or spasms! If I hadn't had my 2 actual children there, I would've burst into tears, thinking about our little leathery guy suffering like that. When they did the fecal, the vet and tech both had to get involved, as Lenny wanted no part in their shenanigans. They managed to swab him, but apparently didn't exactly get a sample. The vet told the tech he could get a "contact," which I'm assuming means they ran the test despite the lack of actual poop. The vet reported back only the presence of gram negative bacteria. The wormer, he said, was a precaution, because despite not seeing parasites, he could have parasites, and if he didn't, it wouldn't hurt him anyway.

As I mentioned, Lenny's appetite has dropped off heavily as of late, and the salads I serve daily are hard to use as a gauge because he likes to fling them around in disgust. He gets shredded greens (mustard, collard, turnip, and bok choy) and grated squash (acorn or butternut) daily, along with a bit of fruit (mango, kiwi, raspberry) as a treat, but he wholly ignores it all. Aside from that, I offer dubias, but I've personally seen him eat only a few (3-4) roaches in the past week. Today he slurped up 15ML of the critical care diet this afternoon, and another 6ML this evening. He took it very well, and really seemed to like it. He had a water drips too, but only about 2-3ML. After his first serving, he laid on his hammock and looked as miserable as I've ever seen him, all stretched out and tired-looking. During a normal day, he may lay down and drape himself over his things, but he doesn't usually lay his head down like that until bedtime. When I tucked him in this evening, I did dig up and turn on his CHE, which raises his tank to about 80.

Here he is, slowing down during his second serving of foul smelling critical care smoothie.

https://youtu.be/8MtZIFqMM2g

traildrifterphalanx":tyzvcu0t said:

I firstly want to commend you for acting right away regarding a vet visit, and I mean this as no shame or guilt to anyone else on this forum, myself included. So, kudos! Just nice to see someone coming back with the vet results right away so the more health experienced members can step in.

I'm no expert on the medications, but regarding sexing Lenny, I see no reason why probing is necessary.. If you're needing any reassurance, we at the forum can help with tail lift photos. My vet was able to confirm the genders of my 2 dragons by tail lift and checking pores (not always an indicator.) I know this is likely the least of your concerns now.

I do hope he feels better, I've been following Lenny threads since you got him.
Feel better, Lenny!

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Thank you for the kudos! I'm learning a lot on this forum,m, but sadly, I'm also learning quickly babies can decline when not given proper care. The thought of my sweet Lenny suffering just kills me.

This vet is the second vet to offer to probe him (or her) to determine sex. As soon as he's feeling better, I'll take some pics of his meaty rear as outlined, haha.

I'm very sorry that Lenny is going through this, it's awful when they're sick and we don't know what to do to help them. Sexing Lenny by posting a photo with his/her tail arched up over his back and showing his/her vent and the area around his/her vent should be very easy, probing should not be necessary at all. I know this isn't your largest concern right now, but Lenny is 10 months old or so, so the age where eggs and egg-binding can become an issue is approaching if Lenny is in fact a female, so it actually is a very important thing to know for sure, so you have no surprises. Egg-binding is a very serious and potentially fatal condition, and honestly if Lenny was older I'd suggest an x-ray to rule it out. But I've never heard of a bearded dragon under a year old producing eggs, so I highly doubt that is the issue... Maybe someone else can chime in on the earliest age a beardie has been known to produce a clutch of eggs? Again, I'm fairly certain that 10 months is too young.

So what the vet basically did was swabbed Lenny's vent, and maybe he got some fecal material, maybe he didn't. The problem with that is that there is a lot of bacteria that lives naturally inside the vent, so taking a culture from inside the vent and doing a gram stain, which came back positive for gram negative bacteria (did they say what gram negative bacteria?), and then putting Lenny on antiparasitic medication prophylactically can be very hard on his system. It's very common for Beardies that are put on Panacur or other antiparasitic meds to lose their appetites, lose a lot of weight, become lethargic, etc. Those meds are all very rough on their gastrointestinal systems and their bodies in general. So if he doesn't actually have a parasitic infection it's a lot to put him through. If they had actually done the gram stain to diagnose gram negative or positive bacteria and then gone further to identify what particular bacteria the gram negative bacteria found is (can typically be done under a compound microscope or by playing the culture, basic microbiology), the bacteria found could be ruled out as being a common bacteria found normally inside the vent. I suggest taking Lenny's next fresh poop and putting it in a Ziploc bags and running it to the vet quickly, and requesting that they actually run a fecal on the poop. And if it turns out being negative for parasites then stop giving Lenny the Panacur unnecessarily, because once again it can be rough on them. Also, the other issue with not actually looking at Lenny's poop under a microscope is that they were not able to check for worms or worm eggs, as if he had them they would most likely not show up in a swab from the vent. So I'd get Lenny's next poop to the vet ASAP.

Also, did they recommend giving Lenny probiotics while on the antibiotics and the antiparasitics? Probiotics usually not only help their tummy feel better and increase their appetite, but they also replenish the "good" bacteria that normally lives in Lenny's gastrointestinal tract that he needs and is being killed off by the antibiotics.

As far as the heaving/gaping, I don't think it has anything to do with temperature, but it's kind of odd. He is making no related sounds when doing these things? No mucous, no strings of mucous in his mouth? No coughing or clicking noises? It doesn't seem temperature related or respiratory related, so it may very well be gastrointestinal, but it's kind of perplexing me...I'm going to look through my text books a little and I'll get back to you...

Thank you so much for taking the time to chime in! Lenny hasn't had the panacur yet, they sent it home with instructions for one dose on 6/28 and one more on 7/12. I will definitely collect his next poop (any ideas on when I should expect that, with everything going on? Last poop was Sunday, and it was very small...) and take it to be tested. He is eating the critical care mix, he seems to really like it, and he is still taking water eagerly.

I know that with people, politics are helpful with antibiotics to replenish natural flora, and I did ask about it for Lenny. They said they had some for birds, but not reptiles. I asked whether or not the Benebac I'd read about and seen on Amazon was appropriate, and they said I could give it. I was a little wary, because there are so many products marketed for reptiles on Amazon, but just like health supplements for people... a lot of them are useless, or even harmful. This is what I got
It will be here tomorrow or Saturday, do you recommend I give it, or is there something else I should get?

As for his mouth, yeah, it was very odd, the vet said that sometimes they do that when they're sick or uncomfortable. He didn't seem too concerned about it, but of course I am.

This is his rear this morning. does the tail need to be higher?

Sorry, I forgot to answer that no, they did not identify a specific bacteria, only that it was gram negative.

Lenny looks to be a girl. A few more pics, including one with tail arched the same way but picture taken slightly from the side could be helpful, but almost certainly is a female. Some females can lay as young as 8 months but it's not common at all, like was mentioned they usually do so at a year or older but there are exceptions. On the other hand, some never lay an infertile egg until 6-7 yrs. old.

I doubt her belly pulsing is related, it's more likely to be the gastro problem, but even that may just have been a fluke. Has she done it since ?

Yep, the Benebac is a great choice! That's what I use for both my birds and my Beardies, and for future reference you can buy it at Tractor Supply in a pinch...

Lenny looks like a girl! Maybe another photo that is closer to his vent and the area above it, and with his tail arched a little more, but looks very much like a female to me. Interesting about the eggs, as was mentioned it would be very rare at 10 months old and I agree that the mouth/heaving thing was probably gastrointestinal related, but since it looks like Lenny is a girl, it's good to know that she has the potential to lay infertile egg clutches soon, and egg-binding is a very serious condition that requires immediate vet attention, so it's a very good thing to read up on so you'll recognize the signs and symptoms. Hopefully it won't be an issue for Lenny in the future, but I always prefer to know and be prepared.

I'm thinking that once you get some Benebac in Lenny she is going to start feeling much better and get her appetite back. Her poops should normalize too and become more consistent. Probiotics are amazing, they need to be used more in just regular pet care (and human dietary care as well). And probiotics in general are probiotics, so the only thing that really varies between species, like birds to reptiles to dogs to people, is the dosage. That's why the Benebac is recommended for all species, it's great stuff!