My baby is turning his front feet backwards!

We got Lenny a little after Thanksgiving, he was a surprise gift, and I am pretty sure he came from petsmart. He is our first reptile, so we have no experience. His tank is 20 gal, and after researching his needs, I thought I had set up his home correctly, but now I think I screwed up...
The 2 bulbs on the end are his heat/light bulb, and the zoomed reptisun 10.0 compact (this is what I think I screwed up on). The middle bulb is a CHE because my husband loves to keep our house a frosty 64 at night. With the CHE, Lenny's night temp stays between 70-75 it stays on between 2200 and 0700. The basking light goes on from 0700-2200, and the reptisun goes on from 0700-1900. His basking temp is a perfect 110, his cool side is 80, and his humidity stays between 25 and 35%. We fed him exclusively crickets for the first 3 weeks, then switched to small dubias, which he loves. He eats between 40-60 a day. I also give him salad every day, which he very rarely eats. Everything gets calcium dusted. The roaches get fed the same salad I feed him. He loves to be held, tolerates being bathed, and loves to be exfoliated during sheds. Until his last face shed, I had never even seen him puff his beard. He poos healthy sized poos daily. He has grown SO much since we got him, I thought we had his setup down!

Yesterday when I came in to greet and feed Lenny, he was basking with his front feet pointed backwards! I made a horrified noise, startled him, and he sat up with his feet in their proper orientation. I took his out to inspect and cuddle him, and he seemed fine
He ate his morning dubias happily
But later I saw him doing the backward feet again!
I Googled his symptom and nearest I can figure, the reptisun compact may to blame, and he may be beginning to show signs of MBD? I feel so awful, I've been depriving him of proper UVB all this time! I had read to stay away from the coils, but the thing isn't exactly coiled!
I am in the middle of preparing his larger home, a 40 breeder But the hood and light fixture haven't come in yet. Luckily, the reptisun 10.0 tube has been delivered, so I bought a light fixture from Walmart and put in the 24 inch reptisun 10.0 tube light. I placed it awkwardly on his Viv, [ximg]89494 7977695893[/ximg]is there something else I can do, or something I should stop doing? His new home is about 1-2 weeks from being ready, and the tube will be inside the enclosure, not on top like it currently is. Any input or critiques will be greatly appreciated!

Hello,

He is a nice looking leatherback dragon! It sounds like he is eating you out of house & home, too.
The temperatures sound very good. The ceramic heat emitter is a good idea then for him since it is fairly cool in the house at night.
It sounds like you have caught it very early. Turning the feet under are very early signs so you should be able to reverse it really quickly. Since you will be mounting the tube bulb underneath of the screen, that will help immensely. How close do you plan on having it to him? The Reptisun 10 tube bulb can be 6-8 inches from him, placed alongside of the basking light.
How often do you give him calcium, daily? One good dusting daily is usually enough, but if you want to give him a little extra for a few weeks to help out, that will be fine.
Your tank looks very nice! He will quickly outgrow it & you will need to upgrade to a larger one.
I think he will be fine, but it may take just a little while for his bones to strengthen up, if they have been compromised much of anything.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

Traci,

Thank you for the reply! I'm so worried! Yes, I do the calcium dust on both feedings, I have since we got him. I plan to cut it down to one as he matures, but for now, it comes with every meal. I am making his basking area in the new viv, and once I have all the fixtures in hand, I'm going to make sure the platform is within about 7 in of the UVB. So do you suppose the compact reptisun was the issue? He came with a generic UVB bulb, but I read about how the reptisun 10.0 was the way to go, so I tossed it and bought the dome fixtures and chose the compact reptisun because it fit.

Hello,

The compact/coil light definitely didn't help, but also he most likely didn't have any UVB exposure or quality UVB prior to you receiving him. They oftentimes develop calcium issues when they are young because they utilize so much during their rapid growth spurts that their levels can get low.
They are unable to absorb calcium or vitamins very well, without UVB exposure.
I think he will be just fine. You have caught it pretty quickly!
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Meningitis?

This raises a question...

When bearded dragons lay around with their "front feet" "backwards" like this, or sometimes with their "arms" at their sides, their "elbows" fairly straight, and their "hands" with the "palms" facing upward, instead of with their hands palms down and their elbows bent to varying degrees like they normally do when they're awake , does it ALWAYS mean that something is wrong?

When I noticed my beardie doing this a lot with one of his arms about two years ago, it turned out that he had some sort of an infection in his elbow resulting in a swelling, so he was probably doing it because it hurt to bend his elbow. MBD was the first thing I suspected, in spite of all our efforts to give him adequate UVB and calcium, but when we found out that it was related to adenovirus, I almost wished that it had been MBD because that would have been easier to fix. Fortunately, he pulled through and seems to be doing well, but ever since then I have been watching him for the same or a similar arm and hand position, now that I know it might be a warning sign of another infection in one of his joints. He still seems to do it once in a while, sometimes when he's asleep and sometimes when I'm holding him. If I notice it when I'm holding him, I usually try to rearrange his little hand into a more normal position for him, and if it doesn't seem to bother him when I handle it, I figure everything is probably ok.

So I'm wondering if this is sometimes just a habit or a preference for a certain position sometimes for some beardies, and not always something to be worried about if everything seems ok with them otherwise? Opinions? :?

Hello,

Reptilian rhapsody and dragon sanctuary

I specialize specifically in meningitis in bearded dragons and I am trying to help those that do offer optimum care and still have these """"""MBD""" dragons that always had sun and calcium.

its not MBD if they were always with you and you always cared.

I have had 11 dragons with meningitis, and only 6 with MBD (VETERINARIAN TESTED)

that means, more of my experiences were NOT MBD.

That being said here are the stages of meningitis in dragons (Excluding rare cases of infection of the spine)

First off you will notice your dragons hands, they will point inwards or backwards. This is because the muscles and tendons that pull the arms, are tight due to the meninges swelling

(Meninges are the spaces in between your spinal cord to speak in English for ya)

The next stage is "HOLDING THEMSELVES" when you pick them up, do all of their legs curl in, like you crossing your arms?

That is because those limbs hanging pulls on the spine, and it hurts.

Third, you will notice the spine slowly become less and less useful. The dragon will begin to drag itself sadly, similar to an army crawl. I have had them be fully responsive during this stage - UNLIKE MBD IN THE WAY THAT YOU WILL NEVER SEE THEM TREMBLE. MBD CAUSES TREMORS. NO TREMORS NO MBD.

the last stage, is death. Once the meninges suffocate the other portions of the spine, they will stop being able to function, if hit hard and fast by meningitis at a young age, they will begin to throw up food, the lack of diaphragm makes it very hard for them to keep it down when NONE OF THEIR BODY WORKS.

That being said, I have successfully treated two of these eleven animals.

Hope is a female, she is 100% infertile, and male dragons do not even recognize her as a female, nor do any try to mate with her. She is 3 years old, and she goes though waves. As of late she is fading quickly. Throwing up has damaged her. She eats a slurry even though she loves crickets.

Charlie is a male, he is four years old, and he is finally only ONLY walking on his wrists again, meaning that some of the swelling has actually been elleviated.

Feel free to message me on facebook for more information and on how to treat a specific case, each case is different.

My grandmother had spinal meningitis and was disabled for almost ten years until it reduced with extreme treatments.

We are still learning about dragons. Excerpt from Wikipedia ::

Management[edit]
Meningitis is potentially life-threatening and has a high mortality rate if untreated;[5] delay in treatment has been associated with a poorer outcome.[3] Thus, treatment with wide-spectrum antibiotics should not be delayed while confirmatory tests are being conducted.[39] If meningococcal disease is suspected in primary care, guidelines recommend that benzylpenicillin be administered before transfer to hospital.[14] Intravenous fluids should be administered if hypotension (low blood pressure) or shock are present.[39] In children routine intravenous fluids for two days may improve outcomes in those who arrive at hospital after being sick for some time.[59] Given that meningitis can cause a number of early severe complications, regular medical review is recommended to identify these complications early[39] and to admit the person to an intensive care unit if deemed necessary.[3]
Mechanical ventilation may be needed if the level of consciousness is very low, or if there is evidence of respiratory failure. If there are signs of raised intracranial pressure, measures to monitor the pressure may be taken; this would allow the optimization of the cerebral perfusion pressure and various treatments to decrease the intracranial pressure with medication (e.g. mannitol).[3] Seizures are treated with anticonvulsants.[3] Hydrocephalus (obstructed flow of CSF) may require insertion of a temporary or long-term drainage device, such as a cerebral shunt.[3]

Hello,

Thanks for that information. There have been a few cases of meningitis on the forum. It's amazing some of the issues that are coming up kin Bearded Dragon's health now.
I believe that a large portion if it is due to inbreeding.

Let us know how your dragon is doing.

Tracie

Hello, abut a year ago my baby bearded dragon started having the same problem. Lucky for you, you caught it early. My beardies legs started going crazy. All I did was make sure i had good UVB bulb and put a lot of calcium powder on his food. Make sure your calcium powder has D3. Hope he gets better!

Hello,

Any updates for us as to how your little dragon is doing?
I hope he is feeling better.
Keep us posted on him.


Tracie

Rex does that occasionally, just a beardie quirk, I think she's too lazy to flip the wrist , doesn't seem to bother her or hurt her when she walks with one of other front wrist (hand) backwards.

This is for Rhapsody sanctuary.....can you start a thread in the general or the health forum that deals with meningitis ? Do you have any write ups from the vets concerning meningitis in beardies, rather than symptoms + treatments in humans ? What treatment did you use on the ones that you saved ? I'm not disparaging your theory or info, but if this is true we should have some info about it being that is so serious and not well known at all by most owners.

Meningitis would be my last thought as a possibility (but still a possibility) Did your dragon have viral or bacterial meningitis? Did the vet do a spinal tap to test the spinal fliud? Its the only way to diagnose meningitis. Could it have been adenovirus that that caused the meningitis symptoms? Did your vet test for it and rule it out?
My first thoughts would be MBD symptoms or neurological problems from atadenovirus.

Drache613":2wc62lty said:

Hello,

Any updates for us as to how your little dragon is doing?
I hope he is feeling better.
Keep us posted on him.


Tracie

Click to expand...

Lenny moved into his new viv (We changed his floor plan on account of the tiles weighing a ton) a couple weeks ago! The furniture I made him is still curing, but his lighting set up is pretty much exactly how I planned.
His temps are good, his appetite is good, His cuddling is excellent And his daily poops are huge and healthy looking. He is active and appears happy and healthy.
BUT he still sleeps with a folded foot! he has has the reptisun tube 10.0 since I first posted about the issue, and all of his dubias get calcium dusted for his 3x a day feedings. He still has very little interest in his salads, but he does eat a bit every now and then.Is there something else I should be doing?