Baby Bearded Dragon

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tblazers7

Member
I purchased my first bearded dragon (second reptile) from the pet store with the highest known reputation in my area, at least from everything I have heard.

Purchased - 4/21/09
Age - The pet store said they received him from a breeder approximately one month earlier.
Size - He's only just 5 inches long, and is very tinny and frail.
Tank - 20 gallon
Lighting - Blue day heat, Blacklight night heat, UVA/UVB Coil Bulb
Substrate - Alphalpha meal
Diet - Baby Crickets, Collard Greens, Pellets, Spaghetti Squash, RepCal, RepVit.

* please note * tank, substrate, lighting, and water dish bought in a Zilla combo box from the pet store

He ate about 5 baby crickets the first day I brought him home, and about 2 or 3 crickets the next few days. The past two days he hasn't eaten. He goes through certain times of lethargy more than others. Sometimes he will crawl right into my hand out of the tank, other times not at all. A lot of the time he spends with his eyes closed. During the night, he sleeps standing up against the tank walls, whether it be on the substrate, or on the hammock thing. The past few days, during the day, he has been laying around with his eyes closed. He appears very dark (compared to all other babies I have seen), with his underside looking dark and splotchy (my biggest concern, solely because it looks unnatural). Also, his one eye stays closed much much more than the other. His skin does seem a little wrinkly, but I am not too familiar with baby dragons, so I am not sure. As far as I know, he doesn't drink out of the water dish yet, so I try to make sure he stays hydrated by spraying him a little bit daily. He hasn't touched his greens, pellets, or squash. I've done quite a bit of research, and I try to make sure to do everything possible, without over stressing him. I wanted to give him a week or so before taking any action, assuming that a great deal of the issue was just relocation stress, but I am just extremely worried that I will go to the tank and he won't respond. If anyone could spare a few minutes to help ease my worries, and most importantly, help my little guy, I would greeeeeeeaaaaatly appreciate it.
 

Tigg

Juvie Member
Lets get the negativity out of the way, and allow me to point out there is a number of problems with those "Combo kits"
#1, and most dangerous is the lighting.... those coil style UVB bulbs are notorious for causing eye irritation and eventually long term vision problems. Stay away from coil and compact bulbs and look for a straight tube style fluorescent bulb. The "Reptisun 10.0" is the best option for you.

Along with this UVB bulb you should just run a ordinary household bulb for basking. The wattage of bulb will depend on your basking temps which I will get to soon.

The nightlight must go, it will disrupt his sleep and cause him to seem lethargic during the day due to lack of sleep. If the need added heat at night, get yourself a ceramic heat emitter bulb. these put out heat, and no light. light at night = bad.

#2 the substrate. albeit not as bad as calci sand, the rick of ingestion and impaction is still high, especially when you as they are clumsy eaters and like to run around tasting everything. Switch to a non particulate substrate such as newspaper, paper towel, non adhesive shelf liner, reptile carpet, outdoor carpet, or better yet... Slate tile with texture for traction. these are much safer, and much easier to keep clean.

#3 Temperatures... You are going to need to get yourself a accurate thermometer, digital thermo's with a wired probe work best. and you will need to monitor and adjust your lighting so that the basking SURFACE is 100-110*, warm end is 90-95* with a gradual temp gradient to a cool side temp of 80-85* allowing them to thermo regulate the body temp. You can obtain these temps with an accurate thermometer, place it on the basking surface, touching the surface, and then in the air on the hot and cool end, leaving the probe each time for 45 min before checking the temp. Without the right temps, your beardie will have no energy, no appetite, and will not be able to digest his food which will lead to impaction. This is also why he is looking dark as they will darken their colour to better absorb heat.

#4 those dragon pellets are only good for dehydrating beardies, don't use them.... which is why you are seeing those wrinkles, most of the time it's due to dehydration. you are going to want to stop misting the dragon in the cage (this will raise the humidity levels and lead to a upper respitory infection) and begin bathing him in warm water daily for 15-20 min at a time. you can also try dropping water on his nose which he should eventually begin to lick off.

I hope I covered the important things. keep it up with the calcium you will want to ensure you are using calcium WITH D3

Don't worry about the sleeping positions, it's normal and they are known for some pretty funny positions. lol

You might want to try returning the whole combo kit from to the pet store as 80% of it is wrong... I don't know why these sell these things!!! Don't feel bad we have all fallen victim to bad pet store advice!!

Best advice I can give you is to read our care guide.... http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/caresheet/ as well as spend some free time browsing this forum as it's packed with useful info! And lot's of experienced people so don't hesitate to ask questions!


P.S. don't wait a week to change any of the things mentioned above... Beardies are very susceptible to illness, and death at that age and their health can go downhill incredibly fast!
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
I know it may be hard to hear most of your set up needs replacing, but Tigg has it spot on.

Holly
 

Freeie

Extreme Poster
We had all the wrong things too when my daughter brought home our first beardie. This site has helped me so much all are happy and healthy. Tigg has given you all the right things to do. The little ones do go downhill really fast. So its important to make sure and turn off the coil bulb asap and get the temps up and bathe the little one in luke warm water up to the armpits.

Welcome to bd.org. I hope your baby starts feeling better soon.
 

tblazers7

Member
Original Poster
Thank you so much for your help and support. If I relied on the people at the pet store, who knows what kind of condition my little guy would be in. I really appreciate you taking the time to help. Everything you've said has given me more and more hope that things will turn out alright.

I took out the alphalpha meal bedding and am now using paper towels.

I quit using the night light.

Could the UV coil bulb be the reason why his eyes remain closed often throughout the day? Is it best that I get the Reptisun 10.0 as soon as possible, or can the coil bulb serve for the time being for the next month or so until I get paid?

I still need a more accurate thermometer to be sure, but as far as I can tell, the temperatures are up to par.

I've been bathing him in warm water, but what exactly should i do with him while he is in the water?
And what should I do with him after I take him out? (dry him off? let him sit under the light for a certain amount of time? wash before/after eating? wait a certain amount of time until eating?, etc.)

I got a few syringes (10cc was the smallest size I could get) and he was drinking water out of that when I offered, and began to look a little better after basking in the sun after his bath.

He still has not eaten a single cricket for the past 3 days, and has yet to even touch any greens or squash. At first he seemed to only go after crickets that were in motion, but now he just lets them pass, and even walk over top of him. What can I do to get him nutrition if he's not eating, and how can i possibly get him to eat? I have heard some people offer "Pedialite" or watered down sports drinks such as Gatorade? What about putting some of the calcium and multivitamin powder in the water when give him it in the syringe?


I know this is not nearly as important as his health, but I'm just looking for some insight from someone with more experience...
While at the pet store, the girl helping me was pushing the combo kit as by far the best option, even though i was asking her about other alternatives, with her saying that I would not need to by anything else once I got the larger tank as he grew. She never gave me warning about getting a dragon so young and so small, and told me only to feed it every other day (from everything I've read and heard, that's not even close, and she said she had 2 dragons of her own). I guess now I'm aware not to trust what sales reps at pet stores have to say.

Once again, thank you so much for all of your time, effort, and support, as it is GREATLY appreciated by me and my little guy.

Tom
 

Tigg

Juvie Member
Hey Tom, I am glad you didn't take offence to my post, or see it as an attack... If anything it was more of an attack directed at the pet store...

In your situation, the 2 most important things to fix are your heating and the UVB light...

The faster you can get the Reptisun the better... And if you are able to do it within the next couple of days then I would recommend to turn the Coil UVB bulb you are currently using off entirely until then. No UVB is better than BAD UVB!

And yes, this is why your beardie is closing his eyes through out the day... It's due to irritation, much the same as us going out on a sunny day without a hat or sunglasses to block the bright sun from our eyes... Your beardie will be experiencing quite the same.

Because of this, it's probably stopping your BD from basking, and warming his body up to the temps he needs to eat, which is why he hasn't eaten.

In the bath, just fill the water up to his armpits. and put down a facecloth into the water for him to see, and get traction on (There are some reports (unconfirmed) that reptiles cannot recognize the colour white. So don't be surprised if he looks a little confused without the cloth, or if he is trying to "swim through your tub". Leave him to bath for 15-20 min as they are able to absorb water through their vent.
Other than that, most beardie love the water... and don't mind it at all, some hate it, others just take some getting used to it. I suspect yours might be a little stressed during the bath since he is still new to you. later on, once he trusts you... he should be able to relax, close his eyes and just soak :)
Oh, and no need to do anything while they are bathing... If he defecates in the water, you should replace the water to avoid him putting his head down and drinking any directly contaminated water.
You can try to dry them off a little after the bath (Mine doesn't like it, but I am sure some won't mind) But I usually just bring mine right to his enclosure, and place him under his warm basking light to warm up. I think you will be hard pressed to get them to eat for the first hour after a bath so be careful with your scheduling... they will be a little stressed and will need some time to get up to the proper temps again.

If you suspect dehydration still, you can even bath them in the pedialite or gatorade that you mentioned, just be sure if the clear stuff or you may dye his skin.

As far as the syringe... Considering your beardie has not eaten, this is becoming more serious... You may want to consider force feeding at this point, or very soon. do not try to shove the syringe in his mouth, or try to put the soft food down his throat... Most times just getting it into the mouth will get them to swallow it on their own. most people have success rubbing the bottom lip, or corner of the mouth to get them to open up, then a quick GENTLE squirt of liquids, little at a time, and allow them to swallow....

what to use... anything soft. Baby food most of the time works best... Turkey, chicken, or beef baby food will provide the much needed protein. OR if you have a blender you can mix up a nice slurry for him.... Baby food, a couple of crickets (blended well) sprinkle some calcium powder like you mentioned, some water, or flavoured pedialite or gatorade to help with hydration, even some greens to give some fibre and keep his tummy working properly :)

Don't fret about your little guy not eating any greens or salad, this is normal at a young age... they tend to not even notice the greens until young adulthood... There's lots of time to learn more about this, and how to trick him into eating some... For now just keep offering it daily even if he doesn't eat it.

Another thing that would be very beneficial, and I know you just spent a lot of money buying, then fixing your set up... but having a fecal test preformed by a vet that specializes in exotic pets would not cost much, and would give you a good idea of how his health is... especially considering you purchased him from a pet store. It IS possible they your little guy could be infested with parasites, which could also be why he isn't eating (If this is the case the antibiotics to treat for parasites are very cheap... just don't want to scare you)

Now on to the pet store employees... It amazes me how little knowledge the "Reptile specialists" at most stores have. really when it comes down to it, they are just there to be paid. And the companies that market things like
"Combo kits" and extremely dangerous substrates and claim they are best, are really only in it for the profits and not the well being of the pet. Sad but true...

OH! Feeding... the pet store girl is very wrong... hatchling beardies need to eat EVERY DAY, maybe even 2 or 3 times a day YOUR schedule permitting. And a full grown beardie will require at least a 55 gallon aquarium! The 20g you purchased with the combo kit will last your beardie for approx 6 months.

Did she mention that all the UVB lights need to be changed every 6 months??? Prob not, but they do... even the Reptisun 10.0! it will still light up and seem to be working, but the UVB output after 6 months is significantly less than a new bulb.

Perhaps you can print off our Care sheet for the girl at the pet store, hopefully it will open her eyes, at the very least maybe HER BEARDIE will begin getting the proper care, and best case she will stop wasting peoples money when they are first trying to enter the hobby!

Hope I didn't miss anything... feel free to ask away if I did...
 

tblazers7

Member
Original Poster
Thanks so much once again. I just took my lunch break from work and spent it trying to help him out once again. I tried to get him to eat, but still wouldn't go after the crickets. I made a concoction in the food processor, consisting of some collard greens, spaghetti squash, some ReptoCal and ReptoMin, as well as a few crickets, mixed with some water and a little Gatorade. He drank a little water before his bath, and then took down a few drops of the liquid from the concoction I made when I put it into the syringe. He wouldn't touch any of the solid portion of the concoction, whether from the food dish or trying to put little bits in his mouth. He wouldn't open his mouth for me when I tried rubbing it or anything though. Is there a safe/non-forceful way to open his mouth? UV coil bulb is now turned off. I'll try some crickets again once I get home from work. THANKSSS AGAIN :D
 

Tigg

Juvie Member
Perhaps you may be able to pass by your local vet (doesn't have to be a reptile vet, and vet will do) And ask them for a "Nasal Canula" This is a very small soft rubber tip that goes onto the syringe... It doesn't take much to slip food through their lips... And I am thinking you will easily be able to slip the canula between his lips, and being soft enough if won't hurt him, this would allow you to give little squirts into his mouth at a time.

keep at it an be patient... for a beardie that young and small to go 3 days without protein... it's not good.

The baby food might be your best bet to keep him going, and with differnt flavours you may have more success... just keep dabbing it one his nose and let him lick it up little by little.

Can you pick up a thermometer on your way home from work? I think getting your temps right, and letting your beardie bask for about an hour is all he needs to get his appetite up!!

I am going to message one of the mods to read through this and see if there is anything I am missing here...
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

You have gotten great advice. Good that you have turned off the compact/coil light that will help tremendously just doing that.
Remember, he has been exposed to low wavelength UVB lighting, so, it will take him a little bit of time to bounce back from that.
Continue to bathe him daily. Get some pedialyte & dilute that with some water to try & give him some oral fluids as well, with a plastic dropper or a plastic syringe simply by dripping it onto his nose.
You could try to find some bee pollen & brewer's yeast to mix in with the water & pedialyte to help stimulate his appetite as well.


Keep us posted on him.

Tracie
 

tblazers7

Member
Original Poster
Bad news guys.

He didn't make it through the night.

Luckily for me, I had called the pet store yesterday yesterday asking about him, and the owner was more than willing to give me the other, healthier baby dragon they had that came in with my little guy. Unfortunately, that doesn't help my little guy or take away from his pain and suffering.

I took him into the pet store this morning and they gave me the other little guy with no problem at all. They both came from the same batch of hatchlings from the breeder, and my new guy is almost twice as big! He said this guy just wasn't meant to make it from the beginning. He was surprised that I even chose him out of the two the day I got him. I just couldn't bear to leave the little guy there though. The new guy is a thousand times more alert and active, and not only does he eat, but he chases down the food. He's showed more life and energy in ten minutes than the other one did in the whole week.

On another note, I was talking to the guy at the pet store who deals with the breeder, and he questioned the breeder about the UV coil bulbs and that the breeder said that there should be absolutely no problem with using the coil bulbs. I really don't know what I should do about it, considering I can not afford to purchase another lighting fixture now.

Tigg, thank you so much for all of your help and support. All of the time and effort you put in trying to help my little guy out will not be forgotten. Even though he's gone now, hopefully my new little guy has enough life for both of them.

Everyone else, thank you all for your support and advice. Every little bit helps.

Thanks again, and much love,
Tom
 

Tigg

Juvie Member
Hey Tom,

Really sorry to hear the news, I feared this was going to happen...

I'm really not sure what to say about the lights, the coil lights REALLY ARE bad for reptiles as Tracie mentioned above. I would think it's best to urge you to beg, borrow or steal to come up with some extra coin to get a proper UVB light and a decent digital thermometer... Or your new beardie may head down the same path.

Please keep us posted on the new beardie, and let us know how he does in his new home :)
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Please do seriously consider the bulb.
The store keeper is there to SELL you things. To open a reptile store all you need to do is buy a liscence. You dont need to undertake any training and you basically sell anything that says "good for bearded dragons" on it and insist that its fine.
It says so on the box right? of course its ok!
Wrong.

The only thing we are here to do is to share our love and knowledge of bearded dragons.
We have no agenda.
We just want to see that your dragon has the happiest healthiest life possible.

Not buying a new bulb is like not buying a new puppy a big quite enough kennel.
Sure it kinda does the job, but its not going to lead to a particularly happy pet either.

If you dont believe us please take a moment to type in coil into the ER search section and the Health search section.
You will find more than enough sick dragons there to convince you otherwise.

Best of luck.
Holly
 

twyliteskyz

Hatchling Member
have you bought the kit within 30 days? maybe they are willing to refund your money and let you pick out other things you are more comfortable with , if i just bought a pet and it died and they wouldnt refund the items i bought that i wasnt happy with i would tell them they just lost alot of business from me and would not go back, i mean i dunno about where you live but if you buy a animal and it dies there are pet lemon laws where they Have to work with you , its not a favor. and if you just bought equipment and learn it might be hazardous and want to pick out something else, theres no reason why that should be a problem . its not you that is asking too much, it is them that is the one selling things causing you to go through this.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I am very sorry for your loss, I had thought he was going to make it. :cry:

Please do not listen to the guy at the petstore. So few of them know anything about the correct science of lighting. Please read this report on compact & coil lights & what most of them cause:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

There have been numerous problems with the compact & coil lights. They simply do not produce adequate amounts of UVB emissions, which will not allow calcium to be absorbed properly. They really are not good lights at all.


Tracie
 

Embee

Gray-bearded Member
I have to pop in here and concur with the others. Please do NOT use the coil bulb. I have read and participated in numerous ailing beardie threads and MOST were attributable to coil bulb use. I can't even count the amount of threads now, and I've only been here at the site for a few months. *sigh* Indeed, the gravest cases all tend to involve coils. There are other problem bulbs out there (compacts, ReptiGlo10 tubes) which also cause harm, avoid those also. Our beardie struggled under a compact bulb but we were able to change her lights (and her life) in time. I am SO SORRY for your loss. :(

Emphatically, please don't take the risk. The ReptiSun 10.0 tube is an excellent product and can be found inexpensively online (if someone hasn't yet posted the link): http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html An inexpensive fixture can be found at a hardware store.

The best,
Em

P.S. Tigg, excellent posts!
 
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