Swollen Legs

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powhatanking

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powhatanking":keqyigze said:
He has been to the vet and they tried to draw fluid off of his legs but there is no fluid. Currently all of his legs are swelling. He doesn't appear to be in pain and gets around fine. He is also eating great. The vet suggested that we soak his feet in iodine and water for two weeks but that has not changed the swelling. We are give him repti-calcium with D3 one day and the next we give him a herptvite multivitamin alternating every other day on his greens. He has a solar heat mercury-vapor bulb (160 watt) along with a reptile uvb 150 and reptisun 10.0 uvb lights. We put him in water and goes to the bathroom every two days. We are concerned about his feet swelling and it looks painful but he has not shown any signs of pain or change in behavior. He is in 125 gallon aquarium alone.
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powhatanking

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ok guy went to the vet on thursday and he gave him another shot to reduce to inflammation he said that he looked better no further swelling on any off his limbs and to hold off on the calcium right now vitamins 1 time a week he also said to double check the lighting so i did move them around a bit now so now have 3 basking places with lights temp ranging from 93 to 106 the uvb light is 18 inches to 6 inches from where he likes to bask he is shedding again and vet said that he can have 4 to 5 crickets a day he is very active and he looks good the vet said that it will take some time for his limbs to go down he goes back in 2 weeks
 

Drache613

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Hello,

I am glad to hear he seems to be doing better & is more active.
What diagnosis has the vet ruled for him, a bacterial infection? Does he still feel it isn't gout?
I'm happy he hasn't had any other increased swellings though. Be sure to keep him well hydrated
right now, since he's on antibiotics. I hope he has a good appetite also!
Please keep us posted on how he is doing. Maybe readjusting some of the lighting has helped, too.


Tracie
 

powhatanking

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Original Poster
sorry it took so long to reply but went back to the vet and they gave him a shot of baytril it did get worst it took so long to find a reptile vet finally found one about an hour away she did get the blood work done and they kept him overnight the blood work had to be sent to another state it showed the protein was at 9.1 (normal 3.5 to 6.5) uric acid 38.4 (normal 1.8 to 4.0) calcium 27.6 (normal 9.0 to 17.0) the test was very detailed. we had to wait another week to get the medicine allopurinol he just started it yesterday he will take 0.25 mg every day for 30 days and then go to every 3 days. this vet seemed to know what she was doing and she did say she thought it was gout even before the blood work came back she does a have a client that has a beardie that she said the was doing good with this treatment when we went back to get medicine she has had another beardie in with a swollen limb so now we soak him daily in warm water and is on a greens diet and we ordered phoneix worms which should be here tomorrow and are trying to find alfalfa meal cant find it yet please keep in mind that the vet bill for this vet was $ 500 and the allopurinol was $114 for a months worth it will all be worth it if he gets better my husband david and i both work and have children along with 2 english bulldogs so sorry for the time lapse between postings will let you know soon
 

Drache613

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Hello,

Goodness, he definitely has gout. I hope the allopurinol helps him out. When are you getting
him started on that, this week?
Definitely start the alfalfa powder for a good non purine protein source, along with black cherry
extract too to help his kidneys.
How is he doing, overall, is he in good spirits?
I'm glad you finally found a good vet, that does help a lot! I know, the cost can really accumulate
for everything, it is hard.
Has his swelling gotten any worse or stayed about the same?

Tracie
 

powhatanking

Member
Original Poster
yes he started on the medicine on the 8th I still cant find the alfalfa meal anywhere at the time we found this vet all 4 legs have some swelling he was eating good until we took the mealworms and the crickets away he seems to be in ok spirits he doesn't like just veggies I hope the medicine will kick in and help him he does drink the black cherry extract I give it to him in an eye dropper while he is soaking in his water he is active. is there anywhere else to get the medicine at cheaper I hope the phoenix worms come in tomorrow but need to read to see if they will do more harm than good
 

DanielleGia920

Hatchling Member
Oh my goodness you paid 114.00 for allopurinol! Woah! You could ask your vet to call your local pharmacy next time. The only kind of allopurinol there is, is the human grade. Your pharmacist can break it down into liquid form and it will be much cheaper than special ordering it through your vet. I paid $25 for a 2 month supply. You can also go to http://www.bug-de-lite.com/ and order it online for a whole lot less than what you paid. That’s what I plan on doing when I run out. My 6 month old dragon was diagnosed with goat about a month ago. Her uric acids were at 48 ? I ordered serrapeptase capsules and put a little in a greens slurry each day and I must say I believe it made a huge difference. The swelling started to go down, she started moving around a lot more and she seems to be in better spirits. Just realized you can also order the serrapeptase from http://www.bug-de-lite.com as well. Her swelling looks pretty painful, lots of fluids, allopurinol, serrapeptase and the cherry extract. I ordered organic alfalfa powder from amazon. It definatly takes a while before you start seeing any results but if your persistent with giving lots of fluids as well as the allopurinol and adjusting the diet you’ll defiantly start to see the results in a few weeks! And yes the Phoenix worms are good to give as well as the silkworms (which naturally have serrapeptase in their gut). That’s all I’ve been giving her the last few weeks. When I would give crickets or mealworms the swelling seemed to get worse so I’ve stuck to only giving Phoenix and silkworms and that seemed to help.

Good luck!

Danielle
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Definitely keep us posted on his progress, I am hoping that he starts to improve. His
poor feet cannot feel good at all. Be sure to keep him well hydrated!

Tracie
 

powhatanking

Member
Original Poster
thanks I will try to get the medicine cheaper it has seem to helping I did order the alfalfa meal on line from amazon also how much and how often he will take anything by eyedropper he does like the phoneix worms so can I dust them with the alfalfa meal, he does like the cherry juice just found the cherry concentrate that we should mix 1 to 4 with water he likes that with a eye dropper( does anyone know what this dosage should be with a reptile) and he licking it as soon as he sees it I also tried the baby food (when he wasn't eating well he loved it) he also gets his greens fresh daily and get a bath (soak )for about 10 to 15 mins the joint swelling does seem to slowing decreasing he is active but no crickets or meal worms I know I have a lot of questions please help. but over all he is doing great!!!!!!
 

Drache613

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Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I'm glad that he seems to be doing pretty well, overall.
As far as the dosage on black cherry extract/juice, since it's not a medication but really a
supplement, there is no established dose per say. It is very safe, so if it is that concentrated,
you can dilute it or, if you don't want to dilute it that's fine too. A strong juice wouldn't hurt
him at all. If you use it straight, just give .5ml daily for him. He definitely needs the added
benefits from the cherry.
The alfalfa meal & baby food are a good addition for him, to be sure he gets his nutrition.
He is eating some greens now?
That would be great if his swelling continues to go down, it has a ways to go.
That's ok if he isn't eating any mealworms or crickets. You could also try to hand feed a few
crickets, perhaps. Silkworms would be very nutritious too, but might be a little hard to find
right now. The phoenix worms are healthy for him too, so if he's eating some of those, at least
he is getting some solid foods.

Let us know how things are going.
Tracie
 

powhatanking

Member
Original Poster
ok Tracie need you help Rango is not wanting to eat the phoniex worms doesnt want to eat any greens i can give him baby food in dropper just to make sure that he is getting food in him he will drink a small amount of the cherry juice he is laying around sometime with one eye open and one eye closed ok but i need to know if and when i can give him calcium or the other vitamins i posted the test results in an earlier post and if he is not eating the food given do i go and get him crickets or superworms and coat the with the calcium or use the liquid calcium that i bought today i really dont want him to be stressed out can you help
 

DanielleGia920

Hatchling Member
I believe tracie said you could give a couple crickets. I wouldn't let him go to town on them though. You can order silkworms on Amazon as well. Bearded dragons tend to go crazy over them and they are very nutritious and have anti inflammatory enzymes in them. I would mix the alfalfa powder into the baby food if that's all you can get him to eat. Alfalfa powder has purine free protein in it which is what he needs now. Regular live bugs have purine proteins which then turns into more Uric acid. The more purine free proteins you give him the better, this way he's still getting protein without increasing his uric acid levels. I know the first week or so I couldn't get mine to drink the juice or eat the greens. I had to blend the greens,add some black cherry concentrate and some pedialyte and force feed her a couple times a day. She didn't like it at all but she needed all the fluids she could get to clean her system out. If you insert the tip of a dropper under the lip starting out at the back by his ear and then slowly move it up towards the tip of his snout he will open his mouth and you can gently get some fluids in. It'll be quick and he'll be trying to get it out of his mouth so make sure your ready to get the fluids in when he opens his mouth. Just make sure you do it slowly so he doesn't choke or aspirate the fluids. It takes time and you may have to do it over and over again to get all the fluids in him. How old is he? If he's an adult I would worry more about the greens, baby food, alfalfa powder, cherry concentrate and fluids than the bugs. Gout can sometimes cause absorption problems so liquid calcium would be preferred. You can actually mix the calcium or vitamins, depending on which day he gets what, right into the greens slurry. A little sprinkle of serrappeptase into a greens slurry would be very helpful too.
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I ordered Dr. best from Amazon, had it the next morning and started adding it to her greens shake each day and was blown away but how much the swelling went down. Try and get as much fluids as you can into him. Again, if you can try and get the silkworms, they were very beneficial and helped tremendously!! Is his swelling still really bad like it was in the first picture you posted? Has it gone down any or has it gotten worse?

Good luck!

Danielle
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Oh my, did he ever have Gout!!! I'm sorry that first vet didn't know what he was doing, I was pretty sure he had Gout the first time I read your post and saw his photos, it's unfortunately not uncommon for vets to not have a clue about Gout in Dragons unless they are very experienced Reptile Vets. He's most likely in a lot of pain and that's why he's not eating, Gout is extremely painful and it's very common for them to stop eating completely, in fact it happens almost always because of the pain. Did this Reptile Vet mention a prescription pain medication/swelling medication for him? That's something you want to call and discuss with your vet, tell her that he has stopped eating and is not moving around much, she may prescribe him some Metacam or better is Tramadol.

You may have to start force-feeding him by using an Oral Syringe, but if he likes the Baby Food then definitely mix the Alfalfa meal into it, as already mentioned it contains a form of protein that will not make the Gout worse like the live insects will. I would definitely follow Danielle's advice and order some live Silkworms on Amazon for him, the Serrapeptase is a natural pain reliever and takes the swelling down, and they are one of the best live feeder insects for Dragons anyway, plus they contain a lot of Serrapeptase naturally in the inside lining of their GI tracts, so they tend to help a lot with the pain and swelling in conjunction with the Tart Cherry Juice/Extract...I actually found a tablet form of "Tart Cherry Extract" at Walmart the other day by accident while I was looking for something else, you get a bottle of 100 tablets of Tart Cherry Extract for $6, it's Spring Valley brand in a green bottle with a yellow label and is in with the human vitamins and supplements alphabetically in the Spring Valley bottles under "Tart Cherry". It's probably a stronger dose than the Black Cherry Juice you're giving him, and you can dissolve the tablets into either Unflavored Pedialyte or even the Cherry Pedialyte (I buy the generic Walmart brand of Pedialyte, much cheaper). It's extremely important to keep him extremely well hydrated with fluids and electrolytes, this will keep his kidneys flushed out and help to get his Uric Acid Levels down, which are pretty high. So that's why the Pedialyte/generic equivalent is better than just giving him water. He must get his hydration through his mouth, soaking him in water or anything else will not hydrate him unless he drinks the water through his mouth, so I'd be offering him the Pedialyte several times a day, throughout the day using an eyedropper to drip water on his snout, or even by force-feeding him the fluids. The BSFL you bought are also a great live feeder insect (Phoenix Worms, same thing), I've been feeding them as my primary live feeder insect for years and never had an issue, so keep trying to give them to him, and always give him the darkest colored ones first, as they are the closest to changing over to beetles, and they also contain the highest calcium content...

You can also buy Alfalfa Meal and Alfalfa Pellets that you can easily crush into powder at any Tractor Supply, they are extremely inexpensive at Tractor Supply, and they sell large bags of them to feed both horses, cattle, and rabbits. Just make sure that they are not the medicated Alfalfa pellets, as they do also sell special, small bags of Alfalfa pellets that are medicated with antiparasitic medications. But just in case you need to buy more, they have large bags of plain Alfalfa pellets/meal very inexpensive.

As far as the Allopurinol, I'm so, so sorry that your vet did that to you!!! Allopurinol is one of the cheapest prescription drugs there are, they cost the same as a simple antibiotic does from a human pharmacy without insurance. Your vet sold you the exact same human grade prescription Allopurinol that people would get from their pharmacies for Gout and other health issues, the reason the vet's prescription is so expensive is that they either order it already dosed for a dragon's weight, or the vet does it herself, but either way she really, really ripped you off, and that's awful. I mean that's probably the worst rip-off by a vet I've seen in a long time, as Danielle said they do not make some "special veterinary formulation" of Allopurinol, it's all coming from the same pharmaceutical companies that supply human pharmacies, and your vet has to know that. A month's worth of Allopurinol for him should not cost you more than $10-$15 maximum from a pharmacy, and all pharmacists mix formulations for veterinarians/animals on a daily basis, in fact the veterinary formulations are really the only prescriptions that pharmacists have to mix up by hand any more, because they prepare it from the pills that come in doses for people. I can't believe your vet charged you over $200 for 2 month's worth of Allopurinol...I'd be calling her and asking her why she didn't just call the prescription in to the pharmacy, she most likely does this every day as all vets do, all she has to do is call the prescription in to your pharmacy and tell the pharmacist the proper dosage, just like a human doctor does. The pharmacist will make the correct dosage from human pills and put it into a liquid form for you to give to him for free. That's what you paid for, the labor or the vet putting it into the correct dosage and into liquid form. That's really upsetting, that cost her no more than $20-$25. That just sucks. Again, I'd call her and tell her that several experienced people on the bearded dragon forum were horrified that you paid over $200 for what they have regularly paid no more than $20-$25 for at their own human pharmacies, and that all of them had reptile vets who called the prescriptions with the correct dosages in to their pharmacies. If she knows that you're onto her and you now know that several people have beardies with Gout and that their Certified Reptile Vets simply called in the Allopurinol prescriptions in to their human pharmacies and that they all paid no more than $25 for 2 months worth, she might feel guilty and refund your money. It's definitely worth a try at that price, you could use that money to order him Silkworms...
 

powhatanking

Member
Original Poster
thanks everyone i did order the serrapeptase a few mins ago i bought organic alfalfa meal is that ok to mix it with the baby food i did get him to drank water while i was soaking him about 3 hrs ago he then went to the bathroom and it was different looking than usual with a piece of worm and a thick slug that is not normally there he does a good job letting me know when he is thirsty then i get the eye dropper and he will drink a little bit about 30 mins ago i did get him to eat baby food and he was happy with it i will get pedialite tomorrow will keep yall posted thanks to everyone
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That's great you got the serrapeptase ordered. It will hopefully help him out a lot.
You can definitely mix alfalfa meal with the baby food, no problem.
Was his urate extra hard, that can happen if he's dehydrated. Continue giving oral fluids,
daily for him, along with his meds & black cherry juice also.
That's wonderful you did get him to eat some of the baby food mix & that he actually liked
it. You must have mixed it up well.

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie
 
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