Ethic question of breeding what sells

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So my question is somewhat controversial...
I'm based in the northern Europe and the fact is that most "normal" or somewhat colorful dragons don't sell. I'm not in this for the money, that needs to be made clear. But there are a lot of people asking for zeros and weros.
Now, I understand that the safest bet you need to breed a het zero and a het witblits. That produces a, what.. a small number of weros. I haven't heard WHY you couldn't just breed vis*vis. But I have hears the not-to part so many times it's stuck in my head.
I cannot keep or sell 100 dragons, thus I came to the conclusion that the best way to offer best quality weros for regular keepers who don't have the means to travel to other countries for reptile shows or pay thousands of dollars on imports.
So to my question then - my plan is to hatch each and every egg with love and care and those hatchlings that look like I won't be able to sell, I plan on euthanizing them. Is there any HUMANE way to do it home, or do I call the vet home because the last thing I want to do is to stress the poor babies out. I just simply cannot flood the market of a very small country with dragons that go months and months on without selling because there is no demand. I don't want the dragons I bred to be kept in a terrarium way too small for them for in the window of a petstore.
Or is this just simply a cruel way to think about this? Should I not breed at all or take the eggs I can manage on my own even if they don't sell? It isn't an easy solution any way. I want my dragons to have the best possible life and I would like to choose be able to at least think that my breedlings (is it's even a word) go to a home where they are cared for for the rest of their life. I don't think I could personally get a big hammer and "euthanize" the poor things that way, I want it to be gentle and definitely pain free. Otherwise the plan is a no-go. I'm not going to start breeding today or even this year. I'm just one of those people who need to have things straight and covered for way before hand.
 

Claudiusx

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SuperHotHarleyQuinn":2952k1j7 said:
So to my question then - my plan is to hatch each and every egg with love and care and those hatchlings that look like I won't be able to sell, I plan on euthanizing them. Is there any HUMANE way to do it home, or do I call the vet home because the last thing I want to do is to stress the poor babies out.

I would call vets in your area first to see if it's even a feasible option. in reality you could been needing to do this to dozens of dragons at a time..

I understand you are in a predicament and don't want to flood the market with dragons that might end up suffering anyways, it's a double edged sword, and i'll leave it at that.

I do think you are doing the responsible thing by asking first though.

-Brandon
 

Claudiusx

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SuperHotHarleyQuinn":1f2efegs said:
Now, I understand that the safest bet you need to breed a het zero and a het witblits. That produces a, what.. a small number of weros. I haven't heard WHY you couldn't just breed vis*vis.

hetxhet is a much stronger form of the genetic mutation. They come out looking better than visxvis if I understand it correctly.
Genetics are very complicated and there are articles online about the benefits of hetxhet (not specifically in dragons) that i've read but can't find at the moment. Im sure if you do some googling you can find it, i just don't have time to right now.

-Brandon
 

SuperHotHarleyQuinn

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Thank you for you thoughts. I definitely need to get in touch with the nearest reptile vet for her output as well. Genetics is what got me interested in the possibility of breeding, but there does seem to be a lack of dragon-specified studies out there :D
In any case, health, temperament and good homes are my top priority if I do choose to breed. These amazing creatures deserve nothing less.
 

Aaradimian

Juvie Member
I don't know that there's a good answer here, but checking with the vet on humane euthenasia options is a start if you're serious about doing it. Something to consider though: if there are already sources of zeroes in your country or there is a way that people can get them and you are not looking to profit from the venture, is there a reason to do it at all? In my moral/ethical framework, I could never do what you are proposing because I'd be taking viable, living creatures and culling them for aesthetic reasons. It would tear me apart seeing all the little beardie hatchlings coming out of their eggs and knowing that I'd be deciding which ones live & die. It makes me sad just thinking about it for this reply.

To give some background, I don't object to meat eating or hunting for sustenance, but my particular 'line' is drawn at things like breeds with known health issues being bred for aesthetics, intentional cruelty, inhumane living conditions or slaughter methods for domesticated food animals or pets, trophy hunting, etc. I'm sure this position pleases no-one in this wonderfully polarized world, but I wanted to express my opinion on this since you asked & to give another perspective. Thanks for listening! :)
 

SuperHotHarleyQuinn

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I don't know if there is a "good" answer either. That's why appreciate all the feedback :)
There are only what you'd call normal colors and some yellowish and reddish tones available in my country.
The idea started when my daughter asked if she could have a white one for her birthday. And I told her she could. We have the means to either import it from another country or go and get one. Not everyone here does, even when we are talking about a very modern scandic country.
I would personally love to add something new to the dragons in here, but I am afraid of getting stuck with 75 lizards. Giving them to pet stores outright creeps me out :/
As a vegan myself I find it hard to breed live food, but dragons are not vegan even if I am :) So the priority is treating the animals as best as possible, with the best homes possible.
So one of the ideas I'm bouncing right now is that I get the wero for my daughter and ask a few long term respected dragon breeders, if they would like for me to get them some het's, and if they choose to breed them, and in fact get weros, ask for one wero in return (for my son). Or is that too Rumpelstilzkin of me? :D And would that weird the breeder out?
Should I leave the lizard breeding for those who are not this faint of heart and stick to dog breeding instead. It's what I know. It's kind of easier to have a reserve of puppy buyers even before the litter (8-10 puppies) is born, than to end up with 70+ lizards.
If I do decide to look further into this, I will make an appointment to the reptile vet. She's considered the country's best and lives only 30km from here.
 
while i see your point and completely understand what youre trying to do, i still feel its pretty malicious to bring a life into the world on purpose and then kill it... even if it is painless. if you believe have to kill them, i wouldnt breed at all. just my opinion, you can take it or leave it.
 

SuperHotHarleyQuinn

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Original Poster
Thank you for your thoughts. I will have to talk to the vet to understand how exactly she euthanizes dragons, to make sure it will not hurt at all. As an animal lover I do believe euthanasia is not bad for the animal if properly done. The animal -to my understanding- won't suffer or even understand.
But yes, there is the little thought inside my head that what if I can't go through with it and do end up living with a house full of dragons. Or if I do do it and it haunts me. I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in ghosts, but I do believe in hasty decisions. And this one is one of those that require conversation with a lot of angles and points of views. I am very grateful I've had replies that have made me think about it in a different light.
 

Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
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Not only that, but from a business standpoint you need to find out how much it will cost to euthanize each dragon. If its 50 bucks a pop is it really still gonna be a viable business option?

Just throwing out other thoughts to think about.

-Brandon
 

SuperHotHarleyQuinn

Member
Original Poster
That's true. And I especially don't want to jack the cost up too high so I will probably in any case be left with only red numbers under the line...
They are asking for 500 euros for a reddish dragon here (breeder). Normal colored are anywhere from 110-250 euros (pet store). As a business this probably wouldn't work unless I hatched them all and sold the ones I would be struggling to find homes to, to pet stores. But then I'd stay awake all night long thinking if they're still in those little show terrariums. There's a minimum requirement here for one dragon's terrarium to be about 5feet * 20in * 20in. (150cm*50cm*50cm) And in the pet shops it's nowhere near that. So I do believe euthanasia beats that because I can't be sure when they'll get bought.
 

Aaradimian

Juvie Member
SuperHotHarleyQuinn":4e2571i4 said:
So one of the ideas I'm bouncing right now is that I get the wero for my daughter and ask a few long term respected dragon breeders, if they would like for me to get them some het's, and if they choose to breed them, and in fact get weros, ask for one wero in return (for my son). Or is that too Rumpelstilzkin of me? :D And would that weird the breeder out?.
I don't see where reaching out to various breeders is a stretch- it's little different than chatting on this board I'd imagine. If you find someone who humanely raises them and there's a market in your country for a particular morph, I could see them being amenable to some kind of deal if/when breeding produces what you're looking for. BTW, what country do you live in? I was just to Sweden, Denmark, and Norway and very much enjoyed the trip and people I met (or at least politely tried to ignore per local custom :lol: )
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, just thought I'd offer an option that has not been mentioned. If you decide to breed you could just throw out 3/4 of the eggs immediately after they are laid, before they develop a nervous system and can feel pain . Just put them in a bag with ice cubes and toss them out. This will immediately kill the eggs. This way you only incubate 6-8 eggs at the most and see what turns up. If most are healthy you can go by that method and do the same with the following clutches. Although this seems peculiar in it's own way, you will at least see what the babies might turn out to be and not have the sad task of taking a large group to be killed . I myself couldn't do that.

BTW, when the first Witblits were first bred , there was a lengthy thread on Fauna classifieds about how unhealthy they were , not growing quickly + developing health issues and prone to patches of fungal infections. These type [ white /silver colored ] dragons may not have not been around long enough to see how the effects of being outcrossed has strengthened the lines and whether these are healthy lines and how ethical the breeders are about where their stock came from and whether they are somewhat inbred, increasing the chances of putting out sickly dragons..
 

SuperHotHarleyQuinn

Member
Original Poster
You've just missed me, I live in Finland :) We have a couple of very good breeders, but the colors are... Well. And for some reason, perhaps due to hight cost of sq footage Rankins are really a thing in here but not my thing.
That is just the kind of information I need and want to have, I don't plan on going to breeding blind. Every single experiment, every single article, every study counts heeps. So thank you!
 

Aaradimian

Juvie Member
SuperHotHarleyQuinn":37hp0prh said:
You've just missed me, I live in Finland :)
Glad to help! This is something I came across that helps explain the different morphs and crosses. I am a bit of a newbie, so while I understand the general principles of selectively breeding for traits, I have no experience in it, and have never incubated babies.

http://www.beardeddragonlady.com/morph-color-pattern.html

Finland is definitely on this list to visit. Our thought is to visit Finland + Estonia, and maybe take a train to Moscow or St. Petersburg if we have time (and of course money!).
 
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