RIP Jojo <3 *8/23/06~6/29/10*

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puppytoes72

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She has been acting nuts for 9 days now,frantically running around,literally climbing the walls of her cage,when I take her out she runs all over and I cant keep up with her,awake and running around before her lights come on in the morning AND pooping(straining to poop) 1-2x a day for the past 9 days.
She hasnt eaten in 5 days. She has lost 30 grams,from 664 down to 634.
Now.....
This is not like her. She usually only poops 1x a week and she LOVES her crickets every day.For the past years she has been the most lazy pet so Ive been VERY concerned about her sudden change in behavior.

Btw,I put a laybox in her viv a couple days ago and she doesnt seem interested in it at all :|

My normal vet is out of work for a couple weeks because he broke his hand walking his llama (yup,true story),so I took Jojo to a vet here in town for x-rays.
The x-ray showed egg follicles which the vet said she can develop and lay,OR absorb into her body and the reason she is acting crazy is because of "hormones". Does this sound right??? To me they looked like a cluster of grapes.
The vet said to wait and see what happens in the next couple weeks.
I guess my question is....
Dont ALL female lizards have clusters of egg follicles? Like human females?
Thanks for listening to my ramblings and I'm sorry if I'm not making sense :oops:
 

Taryn7

Gray-bearded Member
I have no idea if they all have follicles but I really don't think you should stress too much..

As you know - Fudgie has done this as well.. On 2 separate occasions.. It sounds like you are describing Fudge's behavior word for word..

In fact - I can probably cheer you up and send you a pic I took of her during her weird behavior.

I hope someone can help you that has more experience with this but from side - her strange ways will pass soon or she'll lay some eggies in the next few days..

(((Hugs)))
 

vickson420

BD.org Addict
Retired Moderator
Hi Michelle
So a little birdie told me that Jojo is driving you to drink? :wink:
The behavior is perfectly normal for a gravid beardie so the vet i correct HOWEVER I have yet to see a beardie absorb its eggs.While geckos and other lizards can I have never actually seen that happen with beardies.It is possible I suppose I just have not had the experience myself.Now the lack og eating,the strange pooping are all part of the process which in itself is quite nerve wracking.The two most important things I would do is make sure to bathe her daily and supplement her food with a protien babyfood,calcium and jumpstart at least pnce a day until she starts eating on her own again.She may not lay eggs at all if the follicles are just swollen and she doesnt actually produce the eggs but keep that laybox handy for her just in case.Jojo hasnt laid eggs before right?How old is she again?
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
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Well Michele, it looks like you finally got some answers. It was a good idea getting the xray. Sorry that some things still aren't clear, it is very confusing for sure. I did find this info for you though, it helped explain some things for me, hopefully it will help you too. Here's the link where I found it: http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/306070-calling-all-dragon-experts-science.html
I can try to give a quick run through of basic lizard reproduction, but don't have any diagrams or anything to explain it so some bits might be a bit harder to follow. A decent exotic veterinary book should go through it with diagrams though, which may make it easier to understand.


I'll start from the beginning - apologies if you already know any of this. I've put some terms in inverted commas in brackets - if you were going to look through an index of a book or on the web for more information, these are the technical terms you should probably use. Female lizards have paired ovaries and paired oviducts. The ovaries vary in size depending on what part of the reproductive cycle the female's in, but are generally quite small when she's not producing eggs. Lizards don't have a uterus; the oviducts connect straight to the cloaca.

There are various triggers to start the reproductive cycle - day-length changes, UV intensity changes, temperature changes, possibly humidity changes, weather changes etc etc...

The females produce "follicles" in their ovaries, which are basically just ova surrounded by yolk. These are released from the ovary ("ovulation"), but don't have shells added until they are inside the oviduct - at this point they'd be referred to as "eggs".

Unlike a lot of lizards which only have a single site ("germinal bed"), beardies have two beds within each ovary which can produce follicles. What this means is that both ovaries can contribute to a single clutch of eggs, and the female can be producing the follicles for the second clutch before the first clutch is even laid, if that makes sense? The usual time between clutches is around 3-4 weeks, but production of the eggs from scratch takes longer than this, so the ovaries need to be capable of overlapping production, to allow the female to lay 2-3 clutches in a single breeding season. As I said earlier, a decent exotic veterinary book should go through this.

To answer your question about feeling eggs, it's no guarantee they are close to laying if you can feel follicles. The follicles in beardies can be quite large before they're shelled, and you may occasionally feel them. I'd advise you not to go feeling around too hard for them though, as they can be burst if you're too rough. A burst follicle requires surgery and can sometimes be fatal. I've very gently felt pea-sized lumps in a beardie up to 3 weeks before laying. Sometimes you'll feel nothing though; it depends on the beardie, her stomach musculature, her fat levels, the size of the eggs, the clutch size and so on.

With regards to sperm storage, it is something they can do, but as far as I know it's only short term. I've never seen any research suggesting sperm storage for more than few months, and research suggests they cannot store sperm between breeding seasons. I don't know how beardie sperm storage works if the female is mated multiple times by different males; in some insects the sperms mix (so two matings would give you a roughly 50:50 split in paternality). Other insects seem to mostly use sperm from the most recent mating, giving a split more like 10:90.
 

puppytoes72

BD.org Sicko
Original Poster
vickson420":d731f said:
Hi Michelle
So a little birdie told me that Jojo is driving you to drink? :wink:
The behavior is perfectly normal for a gravid beardie so the vet i correct HOWEVER I have yet to see a beardie absorb its eggs.While geckos and other lizards can I have never actually seen that happen with beardies.It is possible I suppose I just have not had the experience myself.Now the lack og eating,the strange pooping are all part of the process which in itself is quite nerve wracking.The two most important things I would do is make sure to bathe her daily and supplement her food with a protien babyfood,calcium and jumpstart at least pnce a day until she starts eating on her own again.She may not lay eggs at all if the follicles are just swollen and she doesnt actually produce the eggs but keep that laybox handy for her just in case.Jojo hasnt laid eggs before right?How old is she again?
Hi Vicky! :D
I saw the cluster of shadows on the x-ray that looked like grapes.To me they looked like eggs not follicles like the vet said.Can follicles look like grapes? :|
We dont have to worry about the bath thing because she gets a 20-30 minute bath EVERY day without fail since she was a baby.She is going to be 3 years old in August. She has never had eggs before.
She did take a little bit of green bean babyfood last night and tonight with calcium,vitamins and benebac mixed in.I have to get to the store to get her some chicken babyfood.
Although the constant pooping(actually its just urate thats been coming out now for the past 3 days) and the not eating is driving me crazy,the thing that is most boggling is the energy level.She just doesnt STOP :lol: I cant keep up with her. She used to be content to lay on my lap or chest for hours and watch tv or nap BUT NOT NOW :roll: I put her in her cage and she tries to climb the walls and also rubs her nose back and forth along the glass and wood.She just keeps doing laps around the cage.
 

puppytoes72

BD.org Sicko
Original Poster
Thank you Diane,that was very interesting. The thing that did pop out at me was the mention of humidity level change causing the things to stir up. :!:
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Yes, I noticed the SAME thing and thought of her now that the humidity level is higher. How did she handle the vet visit? Sorry Dr Sean wasn't available, I know he would have explained everything to you in great detail.
 

puppytoes72

BD.org Sicko
Original Poster
diamc":b9237 said:
Yes, I noticed the SAME thing and thought of her now that the humidity level is higher. How did she handle the vet visit? Sorry Dr Sean wasn't available, I know he would have explained everything to you in great detail.
She was ok at the vet, but she got stressed a little in the car because she wanted to run and of course I couldnt let her.
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
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Poor Jojo, she wanted to run around and mommy was driving the stupid car, so she couldn't. :mrgreen: Looking at those "marbles" inside of her must have seemed strange. :eek:
 

vickson420

BD.org Addict
Retired Moderator
Hey Michelle,
Yes the follicles do appear like eggs and if they are that large then I would bet that she will be laying eggs soon.It is a bit suprising that she just now started being she is already 3 years old but as Diane so gracefully pointed out :wink: the climate change could have triggered it.I know you are pulling your hair out right now and I hope you go along smoother then I did with my last go around with Phoenix.I got a bunch of gray hairs from that not to mention she ate the eggs or at least most of them so I was quite perplexed for quite some time wondering where all the eggs went.

Diane
Great Info!I definately couldnt have explained it as clearly :mrgreen:
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
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The behavior that both of you explained about both your females, was so completely identical that I could hardly believe it. I know it was perplexing for both of you and each time, I didn't want to mention eggs but deep down you both knew anyway, even though I didn't come right out and say it at first. I'm really surprised that my Sabrina has never shown any signs and hopefully she is too old now at almost 5 yrs old, I can hope anyway. :silent: Gee, maybe I won't get another female after all, I know how hard it was on both of you.

I'm glad the information was helpful, I think we all learned a few more things about the female beardie reproductive system. 8)

Michele, did the vet recommend pushing the protein as well as increasing her calcium intake?
 

vickson420

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Diane
You are so right it does soind just like Phoenix's behavior.I only hope Jojo doesnt drag it out for an eternity like my little brat!As soon as I read Michelles post I thought back to my recent escapades with Phoenix and cringed(sorry Michelle).However dont let that stop you from getting your girl because after all my complaining I wouldnt change a thing!LOL :lol: As for Miss Sabrina lets hope she skips the infertile egg thing but I personally would never put anything past that littke devil :wink:
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Well Vicky, Michele and I were discussing Jojo as soon as she started acting differently and I gave her examples of Phoenix behavior. It's amazing the boundless energy they have when their hormones take over, they must be very confused too. I wouldn't put anything past Sabrina either, she'll do just about anything for attention or to be laughed out. :mrgreen:

Michele, hopefully Jojo will lay her eggs and that will be the end of it, we can hope anyway.
 

vickson420

BD.org Addict
Retired Moderator
diamc":a397c said:
Well Vicky, Michele and I were discussing Jojo as soon as she started acting differently and I gave her examples of Phoenix behavior. It's amazing the boundless energy they have when their hormones take over, they must be very confused too. I wouldn't put anything past Sabrina either, she'll do just about anything for attention or to be laughed out. :mrgreen:

Michele, hopefully Jojo will lay her eggs and that will be the end of it, we can hope anyway.
Lets just hope she doesnt eat them and keep you wondering until one day you see lots of buried pices of egg shell:roll: Michelle dont worry we got your back :wink:
 
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