2 Emaciated Juveniles - Advice?

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I just picked these guys up from a CL post and I wanted to make sure I'm doing what I can for them. Genders are guesses, somewhat biased on personality and appearance. Can't tell very easily due to low body weight.

Both will be getting calcium coated dubia roaches every other day, escarole/endive mix every day, and the Repta-Boost/Reptaid supplement (how often should I give this?). They are now under Reptisun 10.0 UVB and heat lamps. Will measure temps later tonight (literally bought the entire setups 3 hours ago). Vet visits as soon as I can afford it. Unfortunately, this was not an expense I planned for.





Dragon #1 is somewhat emaciated, with hip bones showing and a thin appearance. His mouth appears somewhat yellow as well. Also the angriest dragon I've ever seen. Tries to bite anything that goes in the cage and puffs up if he even sees you. Because of this, I've been unsuccessful in measuring size. Previous owner has been feeding him 2 dozen calcium coated crix or a pinky every other day, and kale every day.





Dragon #2 is extremely underweight, can't lift her own body or head, but appears alert and aware of surroundings. A little skittish, but tolerates being held if supported well. Previous owner says this was a rescue, and she just started eating 2 weeks ago, about a dozen calcium coated crix every other day.

Is there anything better I could be doing to help them? First real rescues I've done.
 

CooperDragon

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Poor little guys look VERY skinny. Other than that though, they look to be in reasonable shape. You'll want to offer the carnivore care at appropriate dosage for their weight (usually about .5-1 Tbsp combined with water to desired consistency, but you'll need to check their weight). That can be offered once a day and you could do another feeding of veggie/greens puree or some veggie baby food (sweet potato, squash, and green beens have worked well for me). Keep a close eye on their weight to make sure they start gaining steadily. That will probably be the most important immediate goal. I agree that a vet visit is a good idea when you can afford it. Bring fresh fecal samples for testing if you can. Are they housed together or are they in separate enclosures? I would try to keep them isolated as much as possible in case one is sick to try and prevent cross contamination (although it may be too late for that). Good luck with them. Please let me know if you have questions and keep us all updated on their progress.
 

Sweetheart1016

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Previous owner said they've never been together, and they are currently in separate enclosures. The only time Dragon #2 was with another dragon was when I took my healthy dragon and put him next to her as a size comparison, and that was about 4 inches away for about 30 seconds. Other than that, zero contact.

Is the yellow mouth on #1 an indicator of anything? What's the best way to tame a dragon? #1 is very aggressive - most aggressive dragon I've seen in person. Every time I come within a foot of him, he opens his mouth, black beards and sometimes lunges at me. I've always had sweet dragons so this is new to me.

At what point can I successfully sex them? #2 is about 10 inches, and I'd estimate #1 is around 14 to 16 inches. In age they're sexable, but in weight it's very difficult. If you can, I'd love a rough estimate of how much they should be weighing so I know the goals I have for them.

Right now, they're both eating (romaine last night - my escarole went bad but I got more) and I put escarole/endive in their cages this morning. Carnivore care and a new scale are ordered - my old scale crapped out on me a couple weeks back. Should I still be administering the repta-boost with the carnivore care? When should I switch them to insects? What's the best way to get a dragon's mouth open for a syringe?

#2 is able to move around more than I expected - she has moved in her cage while I wasn't around. Still, when I hold her, it seems very difficult to hold up her body weight. I think that's attributed more to the weight loss than MBD - no other signs of that.
 

CooperDragon

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The yellow mouth may be natural color. It's hard to tell without seeing it though. Is there any pus or mucous? Any signs of irritation or bleeding? If not, then it may just be natural and OK. It will take a lot of time and patience to tame the aggressive dragon. Some of the aggression may be due to him not feeling well. I'd also suggest holding him in the evening just before and after lights out when he's tired. He's less likely to put up a fight when he's tired and holding him may help him be more comfortable around you. It won't happen overnight though. I've also found that routine helps. Feeding, meds, baths, etc all at the same time every day. Dragons seem to respond well to routine.

It is difficult to sex them when they're malnourished. I had trouble with Dundee too. You can try the flashlight method if you have a strong enough flashlight. Otherwise you can take an educated guess based on things like femoral pore size and behavior but that's not surefire. As far as their weight goes, I'd say you'll want them up over 400g at least. The larger one may need to be closer to 600g. Those are rough estimates though. Something to shoot for. As long as their weight starts to increase in general, that should be the short term goal. I would provide the carnivore care instead of the repta-boost as they are similar. I'd try the carnivore care for a week or so and see how they're doing. If they feel like eating on their own after that, then try some insects. You can try dripping the food on their nose and if they start to lick it you may be able to gently pull their jaw down to get the syringe in. If that doesn't work you can try pulling down gently on their beard. That's probably more of a last resort though. It takes time and patience more than anything. If they're both eating veggies on their own, that's a really good sign and will help a lot.
 

Sweetheart1016

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There's no sign of pus, mucous, irritation, bleeding, etc. Just yellow. I had it in my head that yellow mouth may indicate kidney/liver failure. I may have the information wrong. Makes me feel better it may just be natural though. Phew.

Carnivore care should be here tomorrow. Will be weighing then too. Today, just more greens, since I don't want to stress their bellies with my current supply of dubias.

I've only had full grown dragons, so I wasn't sure what juveniles should weigh. Thanks for the rough estimates. I'll try holding him tonight to see how it goes. I feel badly he's so aggressive - I assume he hasn't had the best past. It happens though, and I'm perfectly happy providing the TLC he needs.
 

AHBD

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Hi there...poor little buggers, good thing you picked them up ! First off, don't worry about stressing them by sexing them for a while, let them settle in + get over all the other new things that are already frightening to them. As for weight gain, slow + steady is the way to go, and since they are juvies, they have a wide range of possible average weights that you would expect them to be because they are still growing and will [ probably ] be gaining more length along with weight. At least the very thin one doesn't have noticeable MBD, and has bright eyes for being in her condition. With a very aggressive dragon, you want to leave him alone as much as possible for a week or two....let him ee there's no threat, that he's safe. Then get a thick work glove and pick him up and hold him to your chest for short periods. He won't flail too much that way, and he'll see that you won't hurt him. Just hold him near his tank at first....don't walk around so he gets confused + wondering what's happening. Hopefully they'll both do well for you !
 

Sweetheart1016

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Unfortunately I think I have to mess with #1 in order to give him the carnivore care. I think he's in good enough health to eat his veggies on his own though. He devours the bowl of escarole if everyone leaves the room. He seems ok with slow movement... I really want to give him a bath tonight to get him a little more hydrated and clean.

#2 was holding herself up somewhat when I got home. Ate some greens. Seems pretty relaxed for her condition - stress marks are barely visible. Her vent is somewhat dirty, so I'll be bathing her as well.

Scale will be in tomorrow so I'll get accurate weights then. I don't want to overkill the syringe feeding - I know carnivore care has instructions, but how much baby food should I try to get #2 to eat? I'm probably going with butternut squash baby food, if that matters. I have some feeding syringes I got from the vet a bit ago. Never used.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
So # 1 is eating veggies on his own ? That's great ! Don't worry about the carnivore Care for him, one thing you can try is to top his salad off with it and/or the baby food. Or just don't mess with a good thing [ if he won't eat it with the C. Care ] just give him the good greens. He is in good enough condition to start him on medium feeder insects too. But you don't want to stress him with unwanted syringe feeding. He'll probably pump up O.K in a few weeks.
 

Sweetheart1016

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Original Poster
Actually, both are eating greens, and the previous owner told me both were eating crix (#1 got pinkies, too). Are dubias ok for #1, or are they too hard to digest? I just really hate crickets. I'll do it if I need to though. Should I also give insects to #2 or stick with carnivore care for right now?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Dubias will be fine for the larger boy. Just not too many and not the largest ones. Dragon #2 might be best off with the C.Care for now, with a bit of extra water for hydration. You can try a few very soft dubia for her, smallish ones, but not many. You can crash their system with too much protein when they are as emaciated as that.
 

Sweetheart1016

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Just finished baths for everyone. They both had dried poo on them so it was necessary. #2 is stronger than expected- climbed all the way to the top of the branch after bath time.

UPDATE: I'm 75% sure #1 is a female. No sign of femoral pores (though my first male had none as well), and I believe I see only one bump under the tail. New name: Rockabella. I name male pets after beard styles, females after fashion styles. If it turns out it is a male, I'll change the name.

Rockabella also seems to have broken a toe at one point and it healed at an angle, so she walks on the end joint to a degree. Not a problem, correct? Not great, but not really something fixable. More pics tomorrow- just did lights out.

I'll stick to ccare for now with #2, since I'm new to dubias, I'm not sure how to identify soft from hard. With a little more weight (same proportion as Rockabella?) I'll try some dubia, or if I'm still wary, Phoenix worms.
 

Sweetheart1016

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Sorry it took me so long to post again. Been busy with dragons, of course.


Still won't eat greens in front of me.


Is this coloration normal? Her spine area seems so much lighter...


Rockabella's foot was broken at some point and the toe healed back wrong. Doesn't slow her down though!


Pretty girl!

Rockabella (#1) has calmed down. She rarely black beards now, though she is still pretty skittish of me. Happily eating both greens and calcium coated dubias.


After the moth attack!


Finger hug!


Bathtime!


No greens eating while mama's watching.


Pretty boy!

#2, nicknamed Tiny for now, is gaining more energy, and he even nearly caught a stray moth that flew into his cage one night! He's eating greens on his own, and has gotten used to the carnivore care feedings. Attacks the syringe and then lets me dispense the liquid into his mouth. Almost has a little bit of belly now, though it still needs to translate into fat pads and muscle.


Separate enclosures that have nearly exactly the same set up. Temps vary with weather (I don't have AC in my apt).
Warm side: 95-105 degrees
Cool side: 80-89 degrees
Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulbs on both.

Rockabella is 18", weighing 301 grams on Friday, and 313 on Sunday. So her rough goal is around 550g?
Tiny is 12", weighing 63 grams on Friday and 69 grams on Sunday. From growth charts I've seen, he should be more around 90-100 g, but of course as length grows, goal will as well.
 

Sweetheart1016

Member
Original Poster
UPDATE:

Rockabella is still nervous, but now it's more jumping than biting. Always a good sign. She is up to about 400g, and still gaining. Picky eater though - absolutely refuses greens, but loves butternut squash, and no, squash baby food on the greens simply isn't good enough for this princess. Still, she's my most voracious eater, and always helps me clean up after unpacking bug shipments!



Boho (Tiny) is still only 12", but has sufficiently doubled in weight. Although she has a bit of a belly now, she is my most active dragon, and loves playing Ant Smasher on my phone - beats my butt too! She has shed to absolutely gorgeous coloring, and is happy and healthy.

 
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