New to Snakes ~ what is normal growth? shed?

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blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
(note: title was changed after we got him)

We have been over in the beardie forums for years... Love my beardies, they are my kids too.

We have a new member arriving in a couple days, all I know at this point is that he is a California Kingsnake, he's about 1 year old, approximatley 18 inches, eating 2 hoppers a week. He was listed on my local FreeCycle, and it always gets me when people list dogs, cats, etc... but snakes are much harder to rehome, and I am glad they see that its time to rehome him because the child has lost interest.

That's where we come in... my 14 year old daughter has been wanting a snake for a couple years. So we go get him this Thursday... we have already researched a lot to familiarize ourselves with proper husbandry, and will correct anything that the present owners have misaligned...

My #1 question is, what is average size for 1 year old? I am not sure what morph he is yet, haven't seen him.
My #2 question, is it normal for 2 hoppers to be fed weekly at this age? He's about 18" but I am not sure of the width of his head yet.

Any helpful advice for newbies is welcome, we all gotta learn somewhere... should be an interesting journey :D

We spent hours earlier googling caresheets, so I think we're pretty well prepared. If he doesn't have proper hides we can do that immediately, I sew/quilt and already make hedgie pouches / tunnels... so I've got a dozen in inventory, will just pull something when he arrives :D

Picking up Thursday:
Kingsnake
viv with UTH
lights
water dish / furniture / extra frozen hoppers

Have ready when he arrives:
numerous wattage bulbs to get viv to 85-88 on basking
extra accu-rite dual temp for getting viv to proper temps
cave that dragons outgrew
bag/snuggle pouch and tunnel (fleece & cotton)
substrate (sanichips) and paper towels

Do any of you use UVB for your snakes? I know there is debate on that, just figured I'd ask... I have older bulbs that are not suitable for dragons anymore, I usually offer them on freecycle for turtles, but do have those if needed, as well as a brand new coil UVB bulb that was bad for dragons from the get-go, when I joined these boards, we immediately packed that away, so it has less than a weeks use.
 

Floof

Juvie Member
Welcome to the world of snake ownership! Let's see if I can help a bit with your questions...

1. Size at any age varies too much to put an "average" on it. It all depends on feeding schedule and that snake's metabolism. I have a yearling corn snake who is around 30 grams (eating large fuzzies/small hoppers), and I have heard of people who have yearling corns as large as 150 grams (big enough for adult mice)! As long as he's a good weight (not too skinny), you shouldn't need to worry much about how big he is at this point.

2. How much he should be fed depends, more than anything, on how big he is. You'll be able to figure out what he should eat when you get him... At this age/size, you want to aim for a meal size just a little larger than the widest part of his body, up to 1.5x as big as that widest part.
As far as frequency is concerned, once a week is pretty standard at his current age/size. Around the time he starts taking adult mice, you can start pushing back frequency to every 10-14 days. As an adult, he shouldn't need more than 1-2 adult mice every couple weeks.

3. UVB: King snakes don't need UVB. They are crepuscular, if not nocturnal, and have no problem getting all the nutrition they need from their food. You can put an old UVB bulb over him for the sake of having a display light, but you don't "have" to have any UVB over your king at all, if you don't want it. As far as the coil bulb, don't discount the health risks. They have just as much potential to be dangerous to your snake as they do to your dragon!

(Another thing I wanted to mention in regards to UVB... Turtles have just as intensive needs for UVB as dragons do... It's great if you can freecycle your old UV bulbs to someone who can put them to use, but they are just as useless to turtles as they are to your dragons. Just a head's up, in case the people taking them are using them as their sole sources of UVB...)

Some advice:

King snakes do not need to be heated via heat lamps. There are many keepers (myself included) who believe that properly regulated UTHs are by far the better heating element for your average terrestrial & temperate climate snake. King snakes, being crepuscular/nocturnal, generally warm themselves on rocks/pavement/dirt that has been baking under the hot sun all day. They are designed to to thermoregulate through their ventral surface. As well, lights have pit falls that just aren't conducive to keeping a happy snake.
First and foremost, bright lights can be very stressful on a snake. This can be helped with plenty of hiding places, but it doesn't help if the snake has to be out in the open under a bright heat lamp in order to warm up during the day.
Second, heat lamps are extremely drying. Slightly less of an issue for the California King snake, which is generally adapted to drier conditions, but an issue nonetheless. If the humidity is too low, the snake may have shedding and hydration problems (indeed, shedding issues are largely a side effect of poor hydration). The easiest way to avoid this issue? Just not use a heat lamp. Fluorescents, if you wish to have one over the tank, are less of an issue here, as they don't put out the kind of drying heat that a heat lamp does.

Secondly, and possibly the MOST important, get a thermostat! If you are going to utilize the UTH, you need to put it on a thermostat to control it so it doesn't get too hot. UTHs are a great tool in snake keeping, but they can equally be the most dangerous part of your viv if you aren't careful. The average UTH can get upwards of 100F. I have personally temp gunned a ZooMed heat pad at 130-140F. Easily hot enough to burn your snake. You should invest in a proper thermostat, or at least a rheostat (lamp dimmer), in order to control the output of your UTH.

Your thermostat will control the electricity going to the UTH (by either turning it on and off, in the case of an on/off stat, or dimming the flow as needed but not turning it off completely, in the case of a proportional stat) so that it stays within a few degrees of the set temperature at the location of the probe. You should place the probe in the hottest place the snake can reach: Generally, right on the glass, under the substrate (as many snakes like to burrow down and rest on the glass bottom) on top of the UTH. A digital thermometer placed next to the thermostat probe is also important to be sure the thermostat is functioning correctly. Good inexpensive thermostats include the Zilla and Hydrofarm thermostats (try to steer clear of the ZooMed 500-R; it is a pain to operate, and has a habit of failing within the first 1-2 years of use). Zilla and Hydrofarm are both on/off thermostats in the $30-40 range. If you want to splurge and get the best thermostat for your money, look into the Herpstat thermostat--absolutely fantastic product. I have also heard good things about the new Vivarium Electronics thermostats sold by Reptile Basics. These range from $100 on up. Both are proportional thermostats.

You can also use a lamp dimmer if, for whatever reason, a thermostat isn't an option right now. With this option, you would need to monitor the temperature regularly (i.e. a few times a day) and adjust the dimmer as needed to keep the temperatures in the desired range.

Again, congrats on the new family member!! So wonderful that he's found a good home. It always terrifies me, for obvious reasons, when I see reptiles being given away free like that! I almost wound up with a freebie beardie this week when someone posted it on CL & Freecycle--they had found it wandering around, and put it up for free to a good home. It's all I can do to NOT go get it!
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
thanks Floof, that helps, and we pass a few shopping plazas on the way to get him ~ tonights the night, my daughter is getting excited (and so am I)... of course everyone who knows me and my dragons is worried about my dragons' safety. I have been very clear to the kids that this guy is to be locked in unless mom and dad are rightly available.

Oh, just because I don't know... I am sure every one is different... approx how many days between eating/pooping? She fed him I think Monday, and since we are a new smell to him too, we already know we could bet poo'd on tonight.

I saw one site, that said the feeding cycle was basically: "feed; let alone to digest for 2 days then resume handling; after poo, wait 2 days before feeding" ... is that good/bad advice?
 

Floof

Juvie Member
Odds are your dragon is much too large for the snake to try to eat (though that won't stop dragon from trying to eat the snake!), but do make sure to wash your hands before and after handling the snake--especially if you've held the dragon just before. Most king snakes do eat other reptiles as a decent part of their natural diet, so there's a fair likelihood that, if you smell like lizard, just like if you smell like a mouse, your king snake will instinctively test to see if you're food! ;)

I honestly don't write it down when my snakes poop (so long as they ARE pooping), but it seems like 3-5 days after eating is the norm (with variation, naturally, depending on factors like the size of the meal and whether the snake is in shed [in which case many will hold it until they complete the shed cycle]).

Everyone has their opinion on when is proper to feed your snake. You can try that and see how it works for you, see if it works better than a set # of days. I can't find any major flaw in that kind of schedule so long as you use good judgement and adjust the schedule if he starts getting a bit too plump.

I certainly wouldn't recommend using that schedule on an adult king snake (which would likely have you feeding every 6-7 days, give or take), but, then, I'm of the opinion that a conservative feeding schedule of every 14 days or so is much healthier for non-breeding animals, in order to help avoid obesity and laziness.

That schedule you quoted reminds me--one rule of thumb that applies no matter what schedule you choose to use is to leave the snake alone for 2 days after feeding so they can digest! If you handle too soon after feeding, you run the risk of your snake regurgitating the meal.
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
cool, I just don't want to be underfeeding him, as well as overfeeding. Its all new! So a few days after they poo then feed again? That's a pretty safe schedule to go by?

Got him tonight, let him settle in for awhile, and he was a little skiddish and hiding in his hidey-log, but the viv smelled... if it bothered me, I know it had to bother him... so we carefully took the whole log with him inside and placed it in the tub, daughter babysat while I cleaned. NOTE: she did tell me that about 6 weeks ago, she was holding him and the cat lurched, and when she defensively moved the snake to safety, he wriggled out of her grasp and fell... about 2-3 feet of a fall. She picked him up, he seemed ok, and she put him back into his viv. He retaliated and starting striking at the glass at her, and she's been a little afraid of him since... has only fed him, not handled hardly at all since the fall.

So what do I need to watch for because of his fall? He seems to move ok, he's already spilled about 1/2 out of his log to check us out now that the house has quieted down (dragons and kids are tucked in).

They were using calci-sand ~ good? bad? I replaced it with paper towels for the time being, but they said he likes to burrow, so want to put sani-chips or something in that he can play in. My dragons are all on tiles, and warm soft blankies. Yeah, spoiled to the core, wouldn't have it any other way.

I noticed that he has just a couple scales that look "dimpled"... not sure if that means anything? She told me that he always always shed complete, no partials, which is good. She also said he's never regurgitated food, so I assume she's been feeding the right size mice. He's about 2 feet long, hard to measure a coiled up snake LOL. He's about the fatness of my thumb. Pretty guy! Here are some pics from tonight after we got him a smidge settled in, plus after cleaning his viv (pics with sand are before cleaning):

bj-06.jpg

bj-04.jpg

bj-03.jpg

bj-02.jpg

bj-05.jpg

bj-01.jpg
 

Floof

Juvie Member
Congratulations on getting him! He's very pretty, and looks like he's in good shape!

Yes, that feeding schedule should be fine. Just like anything else, use your judgement on how your snake reacts to the feeding schedule--if it seems like it's too much or too little, adjust accordingly. With snakes, the bigger concern than underfeeding is overfeeding; without a doubt, most snakes in captivity these days are at least mildly obese, but it seems like you only see very underweight/emaciated snakes when there's some extenuating circumstance... Several months of purposeful starving, some kind of illness/parasite, just laid a clutch of eggs. Snakes in general are designed to be able to go months without a meal, if prey is scarce.

I'm sure he's so happy to have a nice clean viv now! Snakes are pretty tough; the fall probably didn't do any lasting damage, but do keep an eye on him. I honestly don't know how any permanent damage from a fall like that would manifest itself, since I've never dealt with a snake that's been injured in that way, so I can't help you there.

Calci-sand is bad. If she was feeding him in the viv, watch for any signs of impaction. Aspen, sani-chips, and carefresh are all perfectly fine substrates for him. I'd keep him on paper towels for now, though, so you can watch his poops (for both signs of sand and signs of parasites, as well as anything else unusual) and watch for mites.

That's an excellent sign that he hasn't had any shedding problems! I can't really comment on what the dimpled scales mean, but it's probably not anything to worry about.
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
ok, so its been a week since his last meal, he pooped on Friday ~ not sure if they have relocation stress like beardies, but he is curious and slithering all over my husband. He was striking at him the first 10 minutes of handling, but then he just seemed to start exploring.

So we're on day 2 of handling, and daughter and hubby both handled him for "trust time" ~ then since he poo'd on Friday, we offered him his two hoppers (what previous owner was feeding weekly)...

Not interested.

So, new questions:
what happens if you thaw the mice and they don't eat? I would assume there is a short window before they "go bad"? How long is normal to offer the thawed mice?

Could it be relocation stress? He doesn't appear to going into a heavy shed...

How long should I wait before I offer a meal again? I don't want him to go too long and be mad at us for not feeding him? We're trying to gain his trust as his new parents.

I did put the two thawed hoppers into a baggie and into the fridge, but not sure if they are good now? Won't feed them off until I get some answers...
 

Floof

Juvie Member
Don't refreeze the mice. The longest it's recommended to go before chucking them is around 12 hours/overnight. So, I'd say go ahead and throw them out... If he didn't take today, he probably won't take tonight.

It probably is relocation stress. You really shouldn't handle him at all for the first week or so. Leave him alone completely for a full week, NO handling. Get in to clean poops and change his water, but that's ALL. You want to let him settle in and de-stress before you start handling him at all. Even better, don't bother him til he's eaten for you. Once he's taken a meal and you know he's settled in well, THEN you can start handling him, but it can take a lot longer for snakes to settle in and get comfortable than beardies. It just takes patience.

Don't offer again for another week. So, for the next 7-10 days, leave him alone completely. Don't handle him, don't offer food, don't get in his cage other than to clean up messes and change his water. After at least 7 days have passed, so at the very soonest next Sunday, you can offer him a meal (and I would recommend only offering 1 hopper, so it's one fewer mice wasted if he doesn't take). If he eats, wonderful! Leave him alone to digest for a couple of days, then you can start handling him gently for SHORT periods of time. Don't bug him too much, you don't want to stress him out even more while he's still getting settled into his new home. 10-15 minutes a day is plenty! Also, try not to handle him at all on feeding day, as, if the handling is stressing him out, that can also make him refuse to eat.

If he refuses to eat next week, too, just repeat the process. Don't bug him all week until you offer again. And don't offer too often... If you offer too often, it can stress them out. And if they start associating that stress with the food you're trying to get him to eat, that can cause problems in and of itself.

If he refuses more than twice, then you'll want to go over his husbandry with a fine tooth comb, maybe get in a stool sample to the vet. Cali kings are total pigs; generally speaking they'll settle in decently quickly and start eating pretty quickly, as well, but "quickly" with snakes still means "a week or two." ;) Just be patient with him, and be glad you didn't get a ball python... They can take WEEKS to settle in and start eating! Ball pythons are so stress-prone it's not even funny.
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
Thanks, Taylor ~ we thought because he hadn't been handled for awhile that we needed to start the short periods of "trust time" ~ but we can give him time to settle in further. He really is pretty, and he's very curious. He likes to climb, so am on the hunt for some more branches for him to climb, but will wait to add them (I'll wait til he eats and digests before I do any viv changes).

Daily water changes? That's what I've been doing since Thursday nite. He likes the water bowl.
How do you tell when he's starting shed / pre-shed? Is there a certain part of them that usually shows signs first?

We did check for mites, did not see anything. Trying to perfect the gradient, have about 72-74 on cool side, and hitting average of 85 on warm side. He likes both, and has explored both hides (cave vs branch).

By the way, I never knew a snake could stretch themselves out up the corner of the cage. He extended his body up to check out the lid (probably scoping for escape?) ~ 1/3 of him on floor or viv, 1/3 up wall, and 1/3 investigating the screen... that was quite a sight because I wasn't expecting it.

I'll pitch those two mice, luckily trash nite is tomorrow for us anyway. I think I have 4-6 more, so we'll try just one next weekend. If he does eat that, should we thaw a 2nd one? Or just leave that feeding at one hopper? BTW the hoppers we have are just about perfectly sized for his chubbiest part. Supposedly he is about 1 year old, no way to know exact age.
 

Floof

Juvie Member
You have to start off slow with snakes. :) Too much handling too soon, if they aren't accustomed to it, can be too stressful. Start slow with short sessions, and you can build it up slowly. Use your judgement... If he isn't taking food as enthusiastically one week, try cutting down a little on handling. If he eats very well and enthusiastically for a few weeks, you can start upping how often and how long you have him out. How well he's eating is one of the easiest ways to gauge his comfort level. After all, a stressed, uncomfortable snake is a LOT less likely to eat than a well-adjusted, unstressed one.

As far as shedding signs, sometimes you'll be able to tell by looking at their bellies... The black on their ventral scales will start to gray out before anything else, and their overall coloration will turn a little dull. Second and biggest clue will be when their eyes cloud over, usually a blue-ish color (hence that stage being called "in blue"). Usually they'll be "in blue" for about a week before their eyes turn clear, at which point you should expect a shed in the next couple days.

Those temps sound about right. 85 is good for his warm spot.

I would leave the meal at one hopper for now. By your description, it sounds like a single hopper is probably about the right size for him to be eating, anyway.
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
We'll let him veg out this week, and I'll post an update next week. I'll just have to get over my temptation of getting pictures this week LOL ~ I am a photographer / graphic designer / quilter ~ and boy do I see all sorts of art in his patterns LOL.

Oh, the hoppers we offered, we offered out of the viv as well as in the viv, no go. Do you usually use a separate bin? If so, how do you safely get them back into their viv (because of the don't-handle rule after eating)? We are still using paper towels as sub so we can better see any mess that needs cleaned up.

Oh, and the two handling sessions we did were short, like 20 minutes each (1 yesterday, 1 today) ~ so they were not really long, I hope that helps. He did slither nicely and "check my husband out" ~ meaning he became a pretty bracelet, then slithered thru his fingers, then coiled himself into his palm and stuck his head by hubby's wrist and just sat there, looking at hubby. Wasn't fighting at all, did not try and strike out at all today, he was super calm today. But we'll behave and leave him alone to adjust. I can actually put his viv on the mantle this week that way he sees and hears us, smells us, but he's not in the traffic areas (my mantle is like 20" x 12 feet)
 

Floof

Juvie Member
I usually feed my snakes in their enclosures. Since transferring them to a separate feeding tub can be stressful in and of itself, I would recommend doing the same with your king. If you decide to use a separate tub later on, the easiest way to transfer him back to his viv is to use a tub small enough that you can set it inside the viv and let him crawl out on his own.

That's great that he has calmed down so quickly. It sounds like he'll be a great pet for you guys once he's settled in!
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
thanks, you have been so helpful, I'll give you a new update next week, hopefully he'll be unstressed and eat :D
 

blondie098

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
hey, daughter and I were just looking thru pics I took with my big SLR camera this weekend ~ pics of Beetlejuice without the flash are normal, but the ones with the flash showed his eyes as BLUE (bluish gray) could he possibly be going into shed and the camera saw something we cannot yet with the naked eye?
Didn't matter what angle his eyes were to the camera, still got the blue with all flash pics:
BJ-blue4.jpg

BJ-blue1.jpg

BJ-blue2.jpg


I even have a couple straight on of his head, and same blue... so its not just from the sides of a light bounce... this could explain not hungry?
 
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