My dragon isn't growing

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My dragon isn't growing

Postby volyballplayr » Fri May 15, 2009 5:41 pm

[TOPIC AUTO-LOCKED DUE TO INACTIVITY]

Hi
I bought my dragon about 9 months ago. When I bought him they said that he was around 3months old. However when i compared him to my friends 3month, He seemed way to small so I just assumed that he was the runt.
But now 9 months later he has not grown. for being a yr old. he is between 8-10 in. from nose to tail. He eats like crazy!!! very active always running around or trying to dig.

His basking area is around 90 degree's and his cooling temp is around 75ish. depending on my room temp. but never below 75.
I've given him meal worms. wax worms. nutrient spray and powder (recommended to me by a breeder) but even she doesn't know what is wrong with him and why he isn't growing, She thought he might be a Rhankin, or maybe he was 'inbred' but we dont know because i don't know the parents. So I was hoping someone on here can help me..

Please and Thank you
Bri
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby kinky » Fri May 15, 2009 5:44 pm

Yeah maybe a Rankin. I'd bump your temps up to 105 and 80 though.
Image
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby volyballplayr » Fri May 15, 2009 6:07 pm

Ok I'll do that thanks.

Here is a picture comparing my Male (Optimus Prime) with my female (Princess)
Princess is only 1 month older than OP.
look at the difference.

http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i39/f ... _00017.jpg

(left is Princess obviously, Right is OP)

http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i39/f ... _00018.jpg

(OP is on top :] )
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby Embee » Fri May 15, 2009 10:33 pm

volyballplayr wrote:Hi
I bought my dragon about 9 months ago. When I bought him they said that he was around 3months old. However when i compared him to my friends 3month, He seemed way to small so I just assumed that he was the runt.
But now 9 months later he has not grown. for being a yr old. he is between 8-10 in. from nose to tail. He eats like crazy!!! very active always running around or trying to dig.

His basking area is around 90 degree's and his cooling temp is around 75ish. depending on my room temp. but never below 75.
I've given him meal worms. wax worms. nutrient spray and powder (recommended to me by a breeder) but even she doesn't know what is wrong with him and why he isn't growing, She thought he might be a Rhankin, or maybe he was 'inbred' but we dont know because i don't know the parents. So I was hoping someone on here can help me..

Please and Thank you
Bri


Hello,

Can you tell me a bit more about the lighting and heating in the tank? What are you using as a UVB source? Is your basking bulb a bright white type? What are you using to gauge basking temps and where are you gauging them, directly under the basking bulb, or just that "side" of the tank? The reason I ask is that if you are gauging just that side of the tank and the temps are running at 90, the temps directly under the bulb are likely MUCH higher, possibly dangerously high, which can cause dehydration and sometimes, worse. Are you bathing beardie regularly?

Also, meal worms and wax worms are high in fat and offer little nutrition for beardies (i.e., they are not considered staple feeders). Ideally, you want to be feeding high protein/low fat, nutritious feeders such as gut loaded crickets, dubias, phoenix worms, silks, etc. Young beardies should be offered live feeders, 2-3 times per day as many as they will eat in 10 -15 minutes. You say you are using a "nutrient spray" however, are you supplementing his diet (5 meals per week) with calcium powder? When you say he "eats like crazy" can you be more specific? How often is he offered live feeders, and how many does he eat? Healthy, young dragons will often consume 40-100 live feeders per day. Here is a link to an excellent resource list on feeding dragons: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.c ... ition.html

Another reason to avoid mealworms is that their hard "chitin" shell presents an impaction risk, especially for young/small dragons.

The answers to those questions (in bold) should get us started. :) Indeed, if your dragon has not grown at all since you've had him I imagine there is possibly something in the husbandry that needs to be addressed. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him being Rankins/Lawsons, but as they are relatively rare, the usually scenario is that you have there, a "micro-beardie" which is something I have a little experience with (I have a recovering micro-beardie myself). Let's see if we can't do some troubleshooting and find something that can be changed for your "little guy" so that he can grow and thrive.

Oh, as to the UVB source, please be specific: type of bulb (coil, compact, tube), and brand (ReptiGlo, ReptiSun, etc).

The best,
Em
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby PeekABoo » Tue May 19, 2009 2:59 pm

Hi,

I had a similar problem with my baby Boo. At 3 1/2 months he was very small with a nipped tail so i figured i got a runt. We received another one who we thought was the same age when we first got her because they were the same size. She started growing rapidly. She even shed all her skin in the course of a day. She is doing well. Boo on the other hand has grown maybe half an inch. I tried changing a lot of things, lights, vitamin supplements, insects and salads figuring maybe it was calcium intake. Still no change, he`s also very lively and looks very happy.

After trying everything I could think of I finally decided to take him to the vet. Maybe he had parasites. This was two weeks ago. Since I have started giving him his medicine he has started to show more of a belly after he has ate and is starting to shed again. The vet had told me it was either parasite, or what she has seen in a many reptiles and snakes is that they cannot thrive. She said they become a hatchling and just cannot get past that stage (possibly what you mean by micro beardie Embee). Looks like I`m lucky and it is just parasites, but maybe a vet visit is in order for you. Although it could be many different factors as was mentioned by Embee. This is just my personal experience.

Melissa
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby Embee » Wed May 20, 2009 2:25 pm

PeekABoo wrote:Hi,

I had a similar problem with my baby Boo. At 3 1/2 months he was very small with a nipped tail so i figured i got a runt. We received another one who we thought was the same age when we first got her because they were the same size. She started growing rapidly. She even shed all her skin in the course of a day. She is doing well. Boo on the other hand has grown maybe half an inch. I tried changing a lot of things, lights, vitamin supplements, insects and salads figuring maybe it was calcium intake. Still no change, he`s also very lively and looks very happy.

After trying everything I could think of I finally decided to take him to the vet. Maybe he had parasites. This was two weeks ago. Since I have started giving him his medicine he has started to show more of a belly after he has ate and is starting to shed again. The vet had told me it was either parasite, or what she has seen in a many reptiles and snakes is that they cannot thrive. She said they become a hatchling and just cannot get past that stage (possibly what you mean by micro beardie Embee). Looks like I`m lucky and it is just parasites, but maybe a vet visit is in order for you. Although it could be many different factors as was mentioned by Embee. This is just my personal experience.

Melissa


Hi Melissa,

I suppose by the term "micro-beardie" I mean one of several things, as there are many possibilities for this... but OFTEN, it is the husbandry (as in our case, and many others) is the culprit for a dragon who is not thriving. It sounds like you exhausted all your options there and went to the next logical place and found some answers, excellent! :) What are you using for tank equipment nowadays then... since switching? UVB, and such? (I'm just curious as I've been there myself).

For us, first and foremost, it was a poor UVB light. Also, temps in the tank weren't 'quite right' and initially we weren't using a bright white basking bulb. Of course, all of the things we were using were recommended to us by the pet store. :roll: When I realized our dragon wasn't growing well/not eating enough, I found bd.org and was learn about this differences in equipment and how much type and brand matter (esp. with UVB). I was able to make the proper changes to beardie's enclosure (new, RECOMMENDED UVB, basking bulb, and better temps). She is now thriving and growing like crazy, however at 8 months, she is the size of a 4-5 month old beardie (about 11 inches). But she is healthy and growing and we couldn't be more pleased. Even if she ends up on the small side of the spectrum (aka, 'micro-beardie'), she has her amazing health and we are most grateful for that. It sounds as if your beardie is recovering as well! Very good news.

Bri, as Melissa suggested, taking a fecal to the vet (or better, taking dragon him/herself in) is always a good precaution. if anything, to rule out parasites or other health issues.

How is your dragon doing btw? Haven't heard back in awhile...

The best,
Em
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby PeekABoo » Wed May 20, 2009 9:22 pm

Embee wrote: or other health issues.

How is your dragon doing btw? Haven't heard back in awhile...

The best,
Em


hey Thanks,

I'm glad yours is doing well to. One of the first things was UVB bulb. I had a compact. I went to the reptglo 10.0 tube, but have been searching for a repti sun and when I find one I will replace my UVB again.
I played around with the basking bulb alot, it was either too hot or too cold I went from a 40 watt household(too cold) to a 60 watt household(still not enough). So I upped my temps again with a 75 watt basking bulb. It's too hot somedays so I have to point the fan so it goes over the cage. It cools it just enough. I even had the mistake of a colored bulb. My Boo didn't like that so it changed fast.
The other thing was calci sand. Big mistake for my baby, I found out after research. He now has terrarium liner. After going through these changes he was always getting a little more livelier, but still not growing.
My next thought was not enough calcium, this is when I ordered pheonix worms, the shipping was more than the worms, but even so it was worth it. He gobbled those up, and after eating nine he looked really skinny. Then his appetite decreased a bit(he wasn't shedding though). This is when I realized it might be something else, but I discovered the vitamin B complex. Which is supposed to help your lizard in every aspect from appetite, to energy level. It wasn't available in Canada, so I figured I might try a vitamin spray. After this he started to look skinnier so I gave in and took him to the vet. My coworkers laughed when I asked to leave work to take my lizard to the vet lol.
Since the vet visit thinks have been looking up and Boo is starting to shed. I'm excited. The vet even phoned to check up on the little guy.

Bri, I'd like to here if yours is doing well to. I hope so.

Melissa
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby Embee » Wed May 20, 2009 10:12 pm

PeekABoo wrote:
Embee wrote: or other health issues.

How is your dragon doing btw? Haven't heard back in awhile...

The best,
Em


hey Thanks,

I'm glad yours is doing well to. One of the first things was UVB bulb. I had a compact. I went to the reptglo 10.0 tube, but have been searching for a repti sun and when I find one I will replace my UVB again.
I played around with the basking bulb alot, it was either too hot or too cold I went from a 40 watt household(too cold) to a 60 watt household(still not enough). So I upped my temps again with a 75 watt basking bulb. It's too hot somedays so I have to point the fan so it goes over the cage. It cools it just enough. I even had the mistake of a colored bulb. My Boo didn't like that so it changed fast.
The other thing was calci sand. Big mistake for my baby, I found out after research. He now has terrarium liner. After going through these changes he was always getting a little more livelier, but still not growing.
My next thought was not enough calcium, this is when I ordered pheonix worms, the shipping was more than the worms, but even so it was worth it. He gobbled those up, and after eating nine he looked really skinny. Then his appetite decreased a bit(he wasn't shedding though). This is when I realized it might be something else, but I discovered the vitamin B complex. Which is supposed to help your lizard in every aspect from appetite, to energy level. It wasn't available in Canada, so I figured I might try a vitamin spray. After this he started to look skinnier so I gave in and took him to the vet. My coworkers laughed when I asked to leave work to take my lizard to the vet lol.
Since the vet visit thinks have been looking up and Boo is starting to shed. I'm excited. The vet even phoned to check up on the little guy.

Bri, I'd like to here if yours is doing well to. I hope so.

Melissa


We've made a lot of the same changes, Melissa. Your story sounds VERY familiar. We had a compact as well (a Zilla, the WORST :roll: ), and sand for one day before we dumped it in favor of repti-carpet. We also had trouble with temps in our starter tank (are you using a smaller tank for now as well, I wonder?). Ours was a 15 gallon and 50w was too little, 60w sometimes too much. I wished I'd had my adjustable lamp stand back then (I had to buy one for the MVB we're using now in her larger enclosure, and it would have been ideal in controlling temps in the starter tank). We also went for the phoenix worms, which along with changing the husbandry really helped stimulate appetite. All things considered however, I believe it was the UVB that was the biggest issue in lack of appetite and stunted growth. When we switched from the compact to a ReptiSun tube in her smaller enclosure, she was feeling better within HOURS, and it was quite amazing to witness! More energy, eating more, sleeping less. What a relief. Now under her MVB, she has really taken off...

I hope you're able to find a ReptiSun tube soon. I think you will be VERY pleased with the change. You've probably had to be very careful with the ReptiGlo 10.0, yes? They do have a certain amount of unpredictability about them. That's great that your vet is so attentive! Hope Boo has a wonderful shed, resulting in new and beautiful colors! :D

The best,
Em
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby Freeie » Wed May 20, 2009 10:23 pm

Christy's tribe:Zero RIP sweetie! Chimaira(F)2 yrs(8/20/08),Kinno(M)20 months(1/1/09), Roo RIP My little Queen & Lexia(F/F)20 months(1/13/09), Bobblehead(M)15 months(3/5/09) Hadyn 3 months(5/29/10)
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby volyballplayr » Thu May 21, 2009 5:44 pm

Sorry guys i've been working alot and haven't had alot of time to check this. :/ My dragon is shedding for the second time since i've gotten him yay :] i upped the temp as suggested. But i think having my female in the same tank with him is encouraging him to grow....

This is the sad part though :[
My parents say that i have to get rid of one of my dragons. :[ So now OP is up for sale :[ i'm sooooo sad. And on top of that. My female will be basking on her branch just posted up there and when OP walks under her, she will look at me to see if i'm looking and if she thinks i'm not...SHE JUMPS ON TOP OF HIM!!! :/ it is the funniest thing i've seen however is scares OP out of his mind. sooo i took her out and put her in a seperate tank because i didn't know if this was an aggressive action or if they were playing.. but it didn't look like she was playing to me and OP wasn't enjoying it thats for sure... soooo any one want to buy my baby from me :[
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby volyballplayr » Thu May 21, 2009 5:57 pm

Can you tell me a bit more about the lighting and heating in the tank? What are you using as a UVB source? Is your basking bulb a bright white type? What are you using to gauge basking temps and where are you gauging them, directly under the basking bulb, or just that "side" of the tank? The reason I ask is that if you are gauging just that side of the tank and the temps are running at 90, the temps directly under the bulb are likely MUCH higher, possibly dangerously high, which can cause dehydration and sometimes, worse. Are you bathing beardie regularly?

Also, meal worms and wax worms are high in fat and offer little nutrition for beardies (i.e., they are not considered staple feeders). Ideally, you want to be feeding high protein/low fat, nutritious feeders such as gut loaded crickets, dubias, phoenix worms, silks, etc. Young beardies should be offered live feeders, 2-3 times per day as many as they will eat in 10 -15 minutes. You say you are using a "nutrient spray" however, are you supplementing his diet (5 meals per week) with calcium powder? When you say he "eats like crazy" can you be more specific? How often is he offered live feeders, and how many does he eat? Healthy, young dragons will often consume 40-100 live feeders per day. Here is a link to an excellent resource list on feeding dragons: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.c ... ition.html

Another reason to avoid mealworms is that their hard "chitin" shell presents an impaction risk, especially for young/small dragons.

The answers to those questions (in bold) should get us started. :) Indeed, if your dragon has not grown at all since you've had him I imagine there is possibly something in the husbandry that needs to be addressed. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him being Rankins/Lawsons, but as they are relatively rare, the usually scenario is that you have there, a "micro-beardie" which is something I have a little experience with (I have a recovering micro-beardie myself). Let's see if we can't do some troubleshooting and find something that can be changed for your "little guy" so that he can grow and thrive.

Oh, as to the UVB source, please be specific: type of bulb (coil, compact, tube), and brand (ReptiGlo, ReptiSun, etc).

The best,
Em



i'll start from the begining...
the basking lamp is a red light for the night time and a bright white one for the day time. I put it ontop of my cage not from the side.. i have a temp gauge inside the tank that sticks onto the side.

I feed him live gut loaded crickets everyday. along with fresh greens everyday and strawberries about once or other types of mangos about twice a week. I don't give him wax worms that often. maybe about once everyother week. just because they arne't his favorite... I also put mener-al on his crickets about everyother time i feed them to him. MY UVB is a 75 watt uhhhh i think thats all the questions. :]
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby Embee » Thu May 21, 2009 6:10 pm

volyballplayr wrote:Sorry guys i've been working alot and haven't had alot of time to check this. :/ My dragon is shedding for the second time since i've gotten him yay :] i upped the temp as suggested. But i think having my female in the same tank with him is encouraging him to grow....

This is the sad part though :[
My parents say that i have to get rid of one of my dragons. :[ So now OP is up for sale :[ i'm sooooo sad. And on top of that. My female will be basking on her branch just posted up there and when OP walks under her, she will look at me to see if i'm looking and if she thinks i'm not...SHE JUMPS ON TOP OF HIM!!! :/ it is the funniest thing i've seen however is scares OP out of his mind. sooo i took her out and put her in a seperate tank because i didn't know if this was an aggressive action or if they were playing.. but it didn't look like she was playing to me and OP wasn't enjoying it thats for sure... soooo any one want to buy my baby from me :[


Oh, you didn't mention your dragon was housed with another. However, it explains a lot. As much as it hurts you I'm sure, it really is NOT recommended to house two dragons together, so unless you're able to fully maintain two separate enclosures, it's probably for the best. I hope OP will find a very good home.

This is most likely the reason that OP is having growth issues. It's a very common scenario I'm afraid. Dragons, being solitary creatures, do not long for another's company, and when housed together there are inevitable dominance issues, sometime resulting in injury and even death. As to growth, this is often the case when two dragons are together in the same enclosure, one thrives while the other does not. I can assure you, that the scene you described, while funny on the surface, is definitely NOT play, and all too familiar. It is good that you separated them.

As to your set up, it would still be helpful know your UVB source. As I said, it's important to be specfic: TYPE and BRAND. Wattage unfortunately, doesn't tell me very much about the bulb itself, and it's quality. So if you have time to get that information, it would be most helpful. Also, the temps in the tank: BASKING, MID and COOL SIDE. What type of thermometer are you using?

How old is your female btw? Still a juvie or an adult? In addition to what I've already described, what else could be going on here is that babies/juvies have rather different needs than adults, particularly in temps and feeders.

Hope you're able to find a good home for OP.

The best,
Em
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Re: My dragon isn't growing

Postby PeekABoo » Fri May 22, 2009 6:59 am

We've made a lot of the same changes, Melissa. Your story sounds VERY familiar. We had a compact as well (a Zilla, the WORST :roll: ), and sand for one day before we dumped it in favor of repti-carpet. We also had trouble with temps in our starter tank (are you using a smaller tank for now as well, I wonder?). Ours was a 15 gallon and 50w was too little, 60w sometimes too much. I wished I'd had my adjustable lamp stand back then (I had to buy one for the MVB we're using now in her larger enclosure, and it would have been ideal in controlling temps in the starter tank). We also went for the phoenix worms, which along with changing the husbandry really helped stimulate appetite. All things considered however, I believe it was the UVB that was the biggest issue in lack of appetite and stunted growth. When we switched from the compact to a ReptiSun tube in her smaller enclosure, she was feeling better within HOURS, and it was quite amazing to witness! More energy, eating more, sleeping less. What a relief. Now under her MVB, she has really taken off...

I hope you're able to find a ReptiSun tube soon. I think you will be VERY pleased with the change. You've probably had to be very careful with the ReptiGlo 10.0, yes? They do have a certain amount of unpredictability about them. That's great that your vet is so attentive! Hope Boo has a wonderful shed, resulting in new and beautiful colors! :D

The best,
Em



Em,

Your right we have a 20 gallon right now, when he starts growing that'll change, but it makes it hard to properly adjust temps. an adjustable stand is a good idea.

Bri, I hope OP gets the best home possible. Good luck with that.

Thanks Freeie(I hope I spelled it right), but I live in Canada and they don't ship there.

Thanks
Melissa
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