How long should basking light be on?

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GoFast

Gray-bearded Member
I was under an assumption that the basking light should be on all day until about 5 minutes ago when I read blood bank dragon's website. On his caresheet link it states:
Temperature



80-85 degree ambient temperature with a 90-95 degree basking spot is ideal. Dragons can tolerate temperatures up to 115+ degrees but that is FAR from ideal.



Don’t run your basking light all day long. 3 hours in the morning and 3 in the evening is all they need. Excessive basking temps for prolonged periods of time cause the dragons to dehydrated (especially baby dragons). Over heated males can get very neurotic

Is this right?? If i can save 6 hours a day of energy then I would be a happy camper!
 

ghr15

Sub-Adult Member
No it's not. Also there is things you can get to save power. If they are regular basking lights you can use a thermostat. Where it dims the light a bit depending on the temperature of the room. So if the room is say in the summer 80 then of course the beardie requires less heat from the basking light so when that happens it will dim the bulb. When the bulb is dimmed it uses less power.
 

GoFast

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
I am not sure if this will change the "no it's not" answer but it might so to be completely fair I have edited the original post to include everything that he stated about temps. Maybe this will change things?
 

ghr15

Sub-Adult Member
GoFast":f65c8 said:
I am not sure if this will change the "no it's not" answer but it might so to be completely fair I have edited the original post to include everything that he stated about temps. Maybe this will change things?

Not really no. Beardies require the basking light to digest there food. That is why they need a basking light all day. It is for digestion purposes. The dimmer I mentioned will save some power. Ohh and if you have more then one reptile it may be a better idea to heat the room. The one heater will use less power and then you would require much lower watt lights to get the required basking temp and still have a side slightly cooler.
 

dolcedragon

Sub-Adult Member
I would say it depends on the size of the enclosure. I leave my basking and UV lights on 12-14 hours a day on a timer. If you have a good temperature gradient going on, your beardies won't spend all day in that one spot.
 

ghr15

Sub-Adult Member
dolcedragon":417d1 said:
I would say it depends on the size of the enclosure. I leave my basking and UV lights on 12-14 hours a day on a timer. If you have a good temperature gradient going on, your beardies won't spend all day in that one spot.


But it would have to be some place that is always at 90 degrees. So if you live where it is hot and have no air conditioner it could work.
 

GoFast

Gray-bearded Member
Original Poster
so let's say hypothetically:

I have a tank that has:
1) an ambient temp of 95* on the hot side
2) basking spot of 105*
3) UV provided by an MVB

So with those stats, if i wanted to have the basking spot on for 3 hours int he morning, and 3 hours and night, that it would be ok as long as line items #1 and #3 did not change?
 

dolcedragon

Sub-Adult Member
ghr15":f4e3d said:
But it would have to be some place that is always at 90 degrees. So if you live where it is hot and have no air conditioner it could work.
No, I said that the enclosure would need a good temperature gradient meaning that even though there is only one basking bulb as you get further away from it, it gets cooler. No part of the enclosure would be completely unaffected by the lighting, making the house temperature irrelevant. For example, because of the size of my enclosure I have a basking bulb on the left side, then a regular white bulb in the center, then nothing on the right side. The left side stays at 95 on the log, not on the log it's about 90, then as you go right it gets cooler all the way down to the end where it is about 75. This allows the beardie to choose how warm it wants to be. Gofast, you would really have to measure the temps with a probe or tempgun all over the cage to get an accurate reading. Then you could try it with some of the lights off. If those temps stayed consistent, you could save some money on lighting, but that is usually not the case.
 

TheVirus

Hatchling Member
Blood banks produces beautiful dragons.

You have to look at the "why". Why did they come to the conclusion that beardies only need "x" amount of basking time. Their answer is because the dragons dehydrate. They're not wrong. They just chose to go a different route than others.

I would be willing to bet that they keep their dragons in open top or screen top enclosures and on a dry substrate. When beardies bask they dehydrate faster. When blood banks turns on the heat lamps, the movement of the hot air rapidly dehydrates the dragons. The hot air sucks up any moisture in the enclosure (including their water filled dragon) and takes it straight up and out with nothing to stop it or slow it down. The hot air is replaced by cool air and the ever going process continues. Its why less than hardy species of lizards can only be kept in screen/open top enclosures if constant misting is applied to keep humidity in a range. And why most keepers of less than hardy species don't use them.

Other keepers use a combination of low basking temps (90-105) and misting/bathing to help keep dragons hydrated and to eliminate stuck sheds on the tails and toes. Blood banks probably has too many animals to soak consistently.

Both ways work, but they're like sticking your finger in a hole in a dam. It stops it from leaking, but doesn't fix the problem. Thats why I believe in setting up an environment that doesn't rapidly dehydrate them. Then they can bask as long as they want and as hot as they want. We give them choice.

Just because beardies are the Bettas or Goldfish of the lizard world, doesn't mean we can't set them up like they are a delicate Reef system :)
 

Freeie

Extreme Poster
We chose to do the 12 hour on off. But i bathe them everyday big guys get 1 a day 10 mins and the babys (7 weeks) get 2 a day 10 to 15 mins depending on how irritated they get. I also put water in their veggie bowl it helps keep them fresh and when they eat them they get the water. But then again i have the time to do all these things :D
 

vickson420

BD.org Addict
Retired Moderator
Virus I am not even sure what you mean by 1/2 of those statements.The only thing I can agree on is that Bloodbank does produce beautiful beardies.Yes it is possible to do 6 hours of basking time(not recommended) and yes there are all methods of care.The question is which is the best for the animal.I have NEVER had an animal dehydrate,retain shed or anything else you refer to.Some are in enclosed vivs and some are not but they all have similar temp ranges and humidity.There is no variation in their health.While reptile care is ever changing its not to be taking simply by word.I am going to ask you again to please post histories proving your methods.Ages,life span,weights,lengths,clutch count and die offs,etc. then we can talk :wink: .
 

TheVirus

Hatchling Member
How do I post proof? I can type anything I want as can others. I can post pictures. I don't have published recordings of my results. I'm not a scientist. I do have a thread made by a herpetologist about the benefits of not keeping an animal in a "dry" enclosure. The thread was made about monitors, but it pertains to all lizards. The author is Dr. Sam Sweet. He is the Professor of Herpetology at the University of California. He also keeps and breeds various reptiles.


Sam Sweet
Platinum member Cage humidity and dehydration. A couple of recent threads on basking behavior and acclimating newly-acquired monitors have slopped over into comments on cage humidity, and it is not uncommon (especially on other fora) to hear of people soaking their animals to “rehydrate” them. It might be worth considering this as a separate issue, as there seem to be some misconceptions afoot.

Monitors can only acquire water by mouth (from food or by drinking). Unless they drink, soaking does not rehydrate them, as their skins are effectively impermeable to water. Notice that we humans, with a much thinner skin keratin layer, do not bloat from taking a bath. Raising the ambient humidity can reduce the rate of dehydration, but it cannot reverse it.

As I noted in another post, monitors lose body water in feces (not much), by evaporation from their eyes (quite a bit), and by exhaling. Air inhaled by a monitor is almost always cooler than the animal’s body temperature. Even if that inhaled air is saturated (100% rh), the temperature increase will reduce the rh of the air in the lungs, and thus body water will be extracted to bring the lungful of air to saturation at the new temperature. When that air is exhaled, the body water goes with it, either all the way out of the body or at least as far as the nasal chamber. Some desert-adapted monitors (like V. griseus) have recurved nasal passages that may help condense and trap exhaled water vapor, but this is absent in species from the wet tropics, and is never as fancy as the water traps in the noses of many desert mammals.

A monitor basking in a cage is inhaling hot, locally dry air, and losing body water each time it exhales. A monitor resting in a cooler part of the cage, especially in a mostly-enclosed burrow or box or hollow, is inhaling nearly saturated air that is at the same temperature as its body and thus it is not dehydrating as quickly. It is pretty likely that monitors are aware of differences in relative humidity at various potential hiding places within a cage.

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#2 2008-08-28 00:37:03
simqc
Silver member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationSo Sam, does that means that keeping a monitor in too hot condition, without retreat, will automatically dehydrate it, whatever saturated the air is?

Thank you for that post, I am sure it will clear so misunderstanding. Dehydration is probably a big cause of death for captive animals.

Simon

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#3 2008-08-28 01:10:18
Sam Sweet
Platinum member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationYes it will lose water, because the air in the lungs is *always* saturated, while the air in the cage (at least in the hottest parts) will not be saturated.

Still, that wouldn't matter as long as the animal drinks regularly. A lot of monitors are finicky about drinking -- either they won't drink from a bowl or tub at all, or won't touch it unless it has just been cleaned and refilled. Lots of smaller species will drink from a dripping tube, or will drink droplets from spray or condensation.

The 'heat-um-n-feed-um' principle can create a problem that I suspect is pretty common among captive monitors. Once they've eaten, monitors like nearly all reptiles will bask as long as they can to speed up digestion. While they're doing that (and not drinking), they are dehydrating. At the same time the proteins in their food are being digested, and the nitrogenous waste is being converted from ammonia at the cellular level to urea in the bloodstream to uric acid in the kidneys or cloaca. Urea is made of two ammonia molecules, and uric acid is made of two urea molecules, so at each step the concentration of the solution falls by half, and the available water is reabsorbed; above a certain concentration uric acid begins to crystallize out of solution, allowing recovery of almost all the metabolic water. This is why lizard (and bird) 'pee' is white and semisolid. The problem is that uric acid crystals are not easily dissolved once they form, and they plog up the works.

Normally this last crystallization step occurs in the cloaca. However, if an animal is dehydrated you can get crystallization of uric acid in the kidneys, which impairs their function, and even elsewhere in the animal's body if dehydration is severe. This condition is termed visceral gout, and it is basically irreversible. It is insidious, because tiny bits of crystalline uric acid act as templates for further crystyal growth, and so any time the animal is even slightly dehydrated, a bit more can form. After a while it becomes a big problem and can kill the animal.

It is probably fair to say that captive monitors get to bask longer than do wild ones, since there is not much else to do and nothing to run away from, and so they are more likely to be a little bit dehydrated than are wild animals, at least now and then. A wild monitor that is dehydrated will usually hole up and not eat, and thus is not processing nitrogenous wastes while its body fluids are in the danger zone for uric acid crystal formation.

Many old captive individuals of nonaquatic monitors show some evidence of visceral gout on necropsy, and a fair few die from it. Even a day or two of basking without access to water that they will accept to drink can add to the problem; it's often hard to know, for picky individuals, if they aren't drinking because they're not thirsty, or because there is something they don't like about the water source they have.

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#4 2008-08-28 08:20:13
simqc
Silver member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationWhat would be symptoms of visceral gout?

Simon

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#5 2008-08-28 14:54:37
Sam Sweet
Platinum member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationThat's the problem, Simon -- by the time symptoms are evident it's pretty late in the game. Kidney failure will cause or accompany gout, and one sign of kidney problems in monitors can be a slightly bulging appearance of the eyes, particularly if the conjunctival tissues bordering the eye have a swollen appearance. Plasma assays for uric acid can show abnormally high values, although the normal values vary with time since feeding, with a transient peak about 2-3 days after a large meal.

A number of antibiotics are nephrotoxic in reptiles, leading to acute kidney failure. This would lead to gout if the animal lives long enough, but the usual scenario is chronic kidney failure that is the progressive result of uric acid deposition associated with a long-term history of dehydration.

Any of the usual signs of dehydration are warnings about the likelihood of gout, especially if the animal is chronically dehydrated as a result of poor husbandry. The dehydration often seen in newly-imported monitors is less a concern for gout, since these animals have not been feeding and thus did not have a lot of uric acid to process. In that connection, this is one reason why it is important to address hydration first in treating new captives, and begin feeding only after the animals have recovered enough body water to process nitrogenous wastes properly.

Most of the uric acid deposition that leads to gout occurs on serosal membranes (those that secrete fluids into body cavities, such as the peritoneal lining, pericardial and pleural membranes, and the linings of joint capsules), and also the inner walls of kidney tubules and blood vessels. The joint capsule variety (articular gout) seems to be less common in monitors than visceral gout, but shows up as obviously impeded movements. There is a video somewhere (I will try to find it) of one of the adult lace monitors at Bronx Zoo that shows advanced articular gout. Visceral gout is unfortunately best diagnosed at necropsy. It can be avoided, but is difficult to cure, since reptiles and birds lack any physiological mechanism to convert uric acid back to urea.

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#6 2008-08-28 18:42:08
simqc
Silver member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationThanks alot Sam for taking the time to write all that down.
Hope I can read one of your book soon :)

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#7 2008-08-29 08:33:58
kriminaal
Silver member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationYes Sam, that's for that info. Very enlightening stuff.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike D
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#8 2008-08-30 05:50:52
cumingi
Gold member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationThanks for the info Sam! Very intressting topic!
As i wrote earlier this year I have a spenceri that has a constipation. I've treated it since april(I think it was) and it is now finally seams to getting better. I stopped the parafin oil and I'm down to one bath a week. This was primary to helping it poo in the water as it seams easier for it. Do you think the spenceri drink any of the water while soaking. It getts realy ballony after the soaking but it getts down after 5-10 minuts.
I know realise that it can have got this uric acid. Some of the feces is realy hard like small stones can this be because of that.
I think it's getting better though because its allso have more ''normal'' feces that I've found in the cage.

/Mike

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#9 2008-08-30 10:17:45
Krusty1
Platinum member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationMonitors puff up with air when you put them in a bath. I think they're trying to not drown and float. I doubt your lizard is "soaking" water as it either has to enter the mouth or vent.

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#10 2008-08-30 12:18:52
cumingi
Gold member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationSorry, a bit unclear hear. I didnt mean it was soaking water through its body. I ment if it was drinking water when it was bathing or if they try to do all they can not to swallow any water. I never seen it acctualy drink the water while it is in the water. I seen it drink water from the bowl in the cage.
The vet told me that it was very important for it to get water daily. The first months I had to give it both water and parafin with a syringe. Now it does seam better and it acts much more like a monitor should with hissing whipping and running away. Plus it has grown abit.
/Mike

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#11 2008-09-13 17:22:50
Aeries
New member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationHey there,

Will the monitor sense the changes in humidity throughout the terrieum, and be able to choose the level that is 'right' for him? (aka The air is significantly less humid around my basking lights than it is over by the water dish)


And...since soaking doesn't 'rehydrate', does soaking still have positive benefits for the monitor? I've read elsewhere that it does, but it seems my Ackie absolutly hates it, he runs at the walls the entire time, and will climb up my arm instantly if I let him. The only other explanation I could think of for this is that he can't the the sides of the tub because it has no contours.


Thanks for the Advice!
-Aeries, the amateur Ackie owner trying to learn more and do better!

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#12 2008-09-13 21:33:50
Sam Sweet
Platinum member Re: Cage humidity and dehydrationIt's pretty likely that monitors become aware of differences in humidity in the same ways that we do -- dry nose, frequency of needing to blink, thirst, etc. It's not going to be an instantaneous sensation, more an 'uncomfortable/comfortable' thing. Other factors are probably going to be more important in determining what the animal does at any particular time, but accumulated experience can certainly affect choice of hides and so on.

Soaking does no harm, and can assist in shedding (especially on the toes and tail) as well as removing accumulated dust and dirt that can act like sunblock in reducing UV uptake. Lots of dry country monitors are wary of standing water, since the only times they encounter it out bush would be during flash floods, and the correct response then is to find something to climb up. Most larger species seem to enjoy soaking.

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vickson420

BD.org Addict
Retired Moderator
Yes and very interesting to read indeed HOWEVER this is proof to me of why I have a problem with your methods as well as some others as well.Why is it that some seem to have this completely invalid idea that if its good for a Monitor then its good for all reptiles.People need to individualize care to the specific needs of a species not to generalize based on the succesive care of one type simply because its a reptile.That would be like saying a chimp and a dolphin are both mammals so the care should be the same.Many in the herp industry would rather simplify by treating them all the same and I take serious issue with that.I would never care for a sav the way I care for a beardie or a Cam thats just a ridiculous train of thought in my opinion.I know people believe its only a beardie they can handle anything or as you put it "a goldfish".This is very far from the truth and a miconception simply because they have the ability to mask illness and injury doesnt make them unbreakable.The other thing to consider is the care reflects on the animals disposition and cognitive abilities.Beardies are by far the most evolved IMO in regards to cognitive brain function BUT this is very often derailed by neurological damage or pathway reduction cause by extreme environment.And yes you can type anything you want in regards to a study and no you are not a scientist however when advising folks to use drastic and unorthodox practice then be very prepared to back it up.People dont have to believe your findings either way but it would go a very long way to proving your theories if you did show a succesful timeline of care in a test group of animals and if you would stop quoting from the "monitor bilbe" as they IMO have nothing to do with beardie care.
 

TheVirus

Hatchling Member
Vicky, with all do respect, your post shows your inexperience. How many monitors do you own? How many have you successfully breed? The point is, you don't know the differences between a monitor (which is very generalized) and a beardie. Also, that you would think beardies a very smart lizard shows your inexperience with other lizards. Beardies are a dumb lizard. I would assume they are a prey lizard. I read a post (on a monitor forum) from an Australian Scientist. He posted a picture of a wild beardie and went on to say how calm wild dragons are. He said you can walk right up to them and photograph them (thats dumb). Lizards like Iguanas won't let you get 30 yards before taking off(thats smart). Also beardies are poor hunters. You have to remove the crickets because unless its right in his eye sight, he'll never eat it. Monitors actively forage. They find hiding roaches and crix and eat them (they are more highly evolved and posses a Jacobson's organ). I would go as far as to saying that my slow moving Chameleons are smarter than beardies and far more highly evolved.

Also the way you keep your dragons restricts behaviour. Your not seeing the same behaviours I am. Its why I keep them the way I do. Its more fun watching a beardie act like a beardie.
 

TheVirus

Hatchling Member
You know whats funny is I never recommended anything in this thread. All I did was try offer a reason as to "why". The "why" is important to me. People read a caresheet and call it gospel. All I try and do is make people think for themselves. "What" made that person choose that husbandry and "why" can this person do things that others can't.
 
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