pooping after phoenix worms

We've recently started Vern on Phoenix worms. This is all part of a new diet that has been focused on getting Vern to start eating and being active again after almost completely shutting down. He's happy to eat the phoenix worms. And they seem to offer sufficient hydration that he's pooping almost regularly now. But in the past few days we've had a couple of poops that contain what appear to be piles of nearly undigested phoenix worms.

Is this common with phoenix worms? Or is something wrong?

Chad

That happened with my girl too. She pooped almost all of them out whole (yes, I counted).

Phoenix worms are supposed to be easier to digest when you poke a hole in them right before you feed them to your beardie.

We'll be receiving our first batch of phoenix worms this week. Thanks for the post. I'm glad I saw it, so I won't freak out if this happens. :mrgreen:

lyndra":7f4fd said:

Phoenix worms are supposed to be easier to digest when you poke a hole in them right before you feed them to your beardie.

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:?: Um, poke a hole in them? *GULP* How would one go about this exactly, and um, with what type of *GULP* implement? Also, if you poke a hole in them, does it effect their movement? My bd won't eat anything that's not moving, so I was counting on these little critters being ultra wiggly. :?:

Thanks.

Em

Thanks for the responses.

Phoenix worms in their pristine state are certainly wiggly. I can't imagine that they'll wiggle too much after having been speared, though.

After a couple of worm-ridden dragon poops, my wife called to consult the vet. The vet advised against feeding them to the lizard. While we might experiment with phoenix worms again at some later date (perhaps after puncturing them), we will follow the vet's order at this stage and take him off the maggots. After all, the little guy has been under the weather recently and we really want to boost his metabolism. Food that's not digesting easily doesn't seem like it will fit the bill.

Consequently, we now have somewhere between 200 and 300 medium phoenix worms from The Phoenix Worm Store (phoenixworm.com) that will go unused. If anyone reading this message is in the Ann Arbor, MI area of the US and would like some phoenix worms for free, send me a message. I might even be able to mail them out of the area, if you ask really nicely.

Chad

Phoenix worms are a good thing!! It is possible they weren't digested properly. That can be from insufficient lighting or the light was turned off too soon after feeding. To the other poster about the vet recommendation to take off phoenix worms as a feeder: Is the vet experienced in reptiles? That doesn't sound right!! Hope all is well. Chris

Wow..phoenix worms are the only way I ever get a completely white belly out of Sakura..she LOVES them. But yes, if we don't hand feed her one at a time..she eats them too fast and acts like she's going to regurgitate, or we find small pieces in her poo...but not whole ones.
Sorry to hear Vern is under the weather..( I love the name Vern..it's so cute..LOL) I hope he feels better and you can find him feeders that he loves that don't make him sick.

cricket119":d8b5e said:

Phoenix worms are a good thing!! It is possible they weren't digested properly. That can be from insufficient lighting or the light was turned off too soon after feeding. To the other poster about the vet recommendation to take off phoenix worms as a feeder: Is the vet experienced in reptiles? That doesn't sound right!! Hope all is well. Chris

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Yes, my vet is very experienced with reptiles. She's been specializing in herps and other exotic animals for twenty years or so.

It's pretty clear that the recommendation to take phoenix worms out of the diet makes perfect sense. It doesn't matter how ideal phoenix worms are as a feeder, if the dragon isn't digesting them then they aren't doing the dragon any good. That may not be the fault of the phoenix worms. It's just a reflection that, for my dragon, a different feeder is more appropriate right now.

The lighting in the cage is fine. We have two, 24" reptisun 10 bulbs along the length of the 4'x2'x2' cage, with incandescent spot lights raising the temp around the basking spot to around 106-108 F. We've been feeding the phoenix worms in the morning as well, since we can slip a bowl of these into the cage when we leave for work, and Vern can eat them up once he decides to emerge from under his rock.

The crickets we give him later in the day seem to digest without any trouble. We haven't had that trouble in the past couple of weeks using silkworms or butter worms.

In short, this all seems to point to trouble the lizard has digesting the phoenix worms. Especially as we're in the process of trying to boost his metabolism, it doesn't make sense to keep feeding him food that he's not digesting. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with phoenix worms at all...just that they don't work for Vern right now.

I decided to write to The Phoenix Worm Store to ask about this situation. I emphasized that I was not dissatisfied with the feeders, and thought that they were great in a lot of ways. But it would be good to understand a little about why my lizard in this instance is having trouble digesting them. Hopefully, they can shed some light on things. I'd be very happy to find that I could resume feeding with phoenix worms some time in the near future.

Chad

p.s. remember, if you're in the neighborhood of Ann Arbor, Michigan, I can give you a pile of free phoenix worms.

cricket119":efb7e said:

Phoenix worms are a good thing!! It is possible they weren't digested properly. That can be from insufficient lighting or the light was turned off too soon after feeding. To the other poster about the vet recommendation to take off phoenix worms as a feeder: Is the vet experienced in reptiles? That doesn't sound right!! Hope all is well. Chris

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My vet also recommended that I stop the phoenix worms. My temps & lighting are perfect, and she always gets a minimum of two hours to digest before the lights go off. Some bd's just have trouble digesting them - I've heard from several others both here and locally that have the same problem. I guess it's just differences between individual dragons.

Hi Folks,
Our email service has been down all morning and we can barely use the Internet right now but we saw this thread and wanted to reply to Chad and others who are concerned about this issue. Of the many thousands of animals who have been fed Phoenix Worms, we occasionally hear about finding worms in the feces. Usually this occurs when PWs are first introduced and the beardie is particularly excited and sort of gobbles down mouthfuls of worms without chewing--easier to do with PWs because they're smaller than other worms. A simple solution is to serve only a small number of worms at a time to slow down the feeding. Another solution is "pinning" which is what frog hobbyists do to feed live prey because frogs typically do not chew--hobbyists pierce the worm with a needle before serving which ensures that the digestive juices can do their job. Breeders tell us that they consider this to be an occasional occurrence but not a problem. They liken it to humans who sometimes find kernels of corn in the toilet bowl which does not mean that corn is a bad food.

We are concerned that a vet advised to stop feeding PWs to a dragon who needs a boost in nutrition. Unlike other feeders, the calcium and phosphorus are perfectly balanced in these worms and PWs contain natural lauric acid which has strong antimicrobial properties and combats coccidia. These worms also trigger a feeding response in animals who are off feed. We have received many email reports telling us about how PWs saved the life of a dying pet or healed MBD. It's clear that animals are obtaining additional nutrition from PWs since their health often improves. We hope that fear about the occasional passage of a whole worm will not prevent you from allowing your pet to enjoy the nutritional benefits of Phoenix Worms.

Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
President, Insect Science Resource
Professor Emeritus, UGA
http://www.phoenixworm.com

Apparentely phoenix worms have somewhat of a "shell" around them. When this skin is not pierced by chewing the beardie won't be able to digest it and benefit from the great nutritional value this worm provides. The worm will be visible in the poop. Comparing the size of a beardie's mouth to the size of a phoenix worm I think chances are pretty high that the beardie just gulps these little things down. Therefore I use a pin or a sewing needle to poke a hole through the worm right prior to feeding. They will still wiggle but not for very long.
This suggestion was made in a book written by Linda J. Davidson.

Thank you Dr.Phoenix for responding . I use your worms as a staple and my 9 month old beardie has grown SO much!! Chris

Craig,

Thanks so much for your post, and for the email I received from your wife earlier today. I really appreciate your efforts.

I'm happy to know that the pinning approach is likely to help with the digestion of the PW, and that the same might be accomplished simply by slowing down the lizard's eating. I'll certainly experiment with this.

Just in case there's some confusion, Vern's hasn't been a case of the odd PW showing up in his stool. This is a case of the stool being jam-packed with many whole, recognizable PWs. I'm very happy to believe that its a case that he's just been bolting his food, though, and I'm looking forward to giving him the chance eat more of the little maggots, but at a more leisurely pace.

Actually, I might get my wife in on the act of pinning these little buggers. She's appalled that we're deliberately bringing maggots into the house, but stabbing them might make her feel better.

Chad

Dr. Phoenix":11853 said:

Hi Folks,
Our email service has been down all morning and we can barely use the Internet right now but we saw this thread and wanted to reply to Chad and others who are concerned about this issue. Of the many thousands of animals who have been fed Phoenix Worms, we occasionally hear about finding worms in the feces. Usually this occurs when PWs are first introduced and the beardie is particularly excited and sort of gobbles down mouthfuls of worms without chewing--easier to do with PWs because they're smaller than other worms. A simple solution is to serve only a small number of worms at a time to slow down the feeding. Another solution is "pinning" which is what frog hobbyists do to feed live prey because frogs typically do not chew--hobbyists pierce the worm with a needle before serving which ensures that the digestive juices can do their job. Breeders tell us that they consider this to be an occasional occurrence but not a problem. They liken it to humans who sometimes find kernels of corn in the toilet bowl which does not mean that corn is a bad food.

We are concerned that a vet advised to stop feeding PWs to a dragon who needs a boost in nutrition. Unlike other feeders, the calcium and phosphorus are perfectly balanced in these worms and PWs contain natural lauric acid which has strong antimicrobial properties and combats coccidia. These worms also trigger a feeding response in animals who are off feed. We have received many email reports telling us about how PWs saved the life of a dying pet or healed MBD. It's clear that animals are obtaining additional nutrition from PWs since their health often improves. We hope that fear about the occasional passage of a whole worm will not prevent you from allowing your pet to enjoy the nutritional benefits of Phoenix Worms.

Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
President, Insect Science Resource
Professor Emeritus, UGA
http://www.phoenixworm.com

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Thank you so much for this informative response. Our bd has been struggling, and is small. He's been recently uplifted GREATLY by changing the UVB, and we're VERY encouraged. I ordered PW's last week because I'd been reading wonderful things about them with regard to MBD, appetite stimulation, etc. We've been looking forward to trying them, as a way to further stimulate our bd's appetite (he's already MUCH better), and for supplementing calcium, and general nutrition. This information will be VERY helpful to us, I'm sure.

dragonphoenix36":11853 said:

But yes, if we don't hand feed her one at a time..she eats them too fast and acts like she's going to regurgitate, or we find small pieces in her poo...but not whole ones.

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Good advice to keep in mind. Thank you for this.

OP, I'm sorry about Vern, and hope you can find a feeder that is more helpful. It's so hard when they are shutting down like that. *sigh* Our baby bd has recently been on the upswing after attempting to shut down, and it was a scary time for sure. Hope you find some better solutions soon. I thank you for starting this thread. It's been of enormous help.

The best,
Em