Need help Urgently with Leos

Hi everyone,
I'm sorry, I know this is our bearded dragon forum, but I really need some help with these two guys and the geckoforum isn't super active.
A Petstore gave me these two little guys yesterday evening. They did not think they would make it, but I've seen lots of babies bounce back from horrible conditions and I'm giving it a shot.

Here's all the info that I've got on their history and current set up. I will also post pictures at the end of my post.

No idea on age, previous temperatures, or how long they've been in this condition.
As far as I can tell they were fed a diet of medium-large crickets. There was an infrared bulb and a UVB coil bulb in their previous enclosure, and no thermometers.

Currently they're in a 40 gallon breeder, on newspaper and tile, they've got 2 humid hides and then another hide situated kind of in the middle of the tank. I've got them under a 100w infrared bulb, and the digital probe is on the floor directly under the light. It's holding stead between 89-92. They both had a short soak in warm water last night.
One of them seems to be a bit worse off than the other, though they are both still very underweight.

I offered them wax worms last night, both from my hand and wiggling on the floor in front of them, but no go.
They also would not drink any water from the dropper.
I'm going to pick up some mealworms today for them to try, and I've been reccomended to try out this slurry. http://www.goldengategeckos.com/info.html
I'll also be picking up some pedialyte, both for the slurry and to add to their baths.

I have no seen any poop from either of them yet.

I'm looking for any tips/advice that can help these little guys pull through. I'm also wondering if I should purchase a UTH, and how safe the UTH will be since the tank is currently sitting on the floor. I don't have anything that I can raise it up on right now.

Also, what do I need to control the UTH if I get one, and will the digital thermometer probe measure the floor temp?
If it won't harm them, I'm more comfortable purchasing a higher wattage infrared bulb to get the temperatures higher. Of course I'll do whatever is necessary, but I'd much rather go with a bulb than the UTH.

Thank you so much for any help you can give me. We're really rootin for these guys.

I also wanted to add that I got in touch with Elliot at Reptaid and he advised me on how to dilute the Reptaid XL that I have so that I can give some to them. I will be giving them their first dose momentarily.

**Update**
Neither would take any reptaid, nor water when I placed a drop on their nose, however the full tailed one (Jerry) did eat 5 wax worms. I'm heading to the store now to pick up some mealworms and everything I need for the slurry.

Does anyone have any advice on getting them rehydrated?

Oh man poor little guys. :/ Unfortunately I know nothing about geckos but hopefully someone can help you out.

So unfortunately little Tom did not make it.
We are still rootin for Jerry, though it's pretty touch and go at this point.
Jerry pooped out two undigested waxworms this afternoon, and is closing his eyes alot.
I was able to give him a bath in pedialite, and he drank about .1ml when I dropped it on his nose.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. We'd really like to help this little guy pull through.

Hello,

Oh I am sorry that Tom didn't make it, he was in bad shape.
How is Jerry doing?
Are you using an undertank heater 24/7 for him? You are not using the coil/compact bulb, correct?
Did he take the reptaid without any trouble?
I would also supplement him with chicken, turkey or beef baby food with small amounts given several times a day, with diluted pedialyte for help with hydration. is he drinking anything on his own or just when you use the syringe or dropper?
Your setup sounds good. Be sure he stays hydrated, that is a very important factor.

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

Thank you for leaving it posted.

I'm really not sure how Jerry's doing at this point. He gets a bit more lively when I pick him up to put him in a bath, but it doesn't last long. He also does not keep his eyes open for any length of time.

He currently has an infrared heat bulb, and nothing else. There's a digital thermometer on the floor of the tank that's measuring at 92.

I could not get him to take any reptaid. I have also not seen him drink anything on his own, though he did take some water from a dropper.
I made the slurry that was reccomended to me on the gecko forum, but have no yet offered any to him since he ate those 5 waxworms on his own.

I was advised to switch him to a smaller tank, as the 40 gallon may be too large and stress him out.
I picked up a 20 gallon long tonight, but I'm worried that switching him over may cause him more stress than leaving him in the big tank. Does anyone have an opinions on this?

I am also nervous about giving him more live worms, because of the undigested waxworms in his poo. I feel that mealworms would be too hard for him to digest, so I was thinking of pricking the waxworms with a pin before feeding them to him. He only seemed interested in them this morning when they were wiggling around alot however, and I'm not sure how quickly they will die after being pricked.

I was planning on giving him another bath and seeing if I could get anymore water into him, but I don't want to handle him too much either.

I do realize that I'm obsessing, but I really don't want to loose this little guy too. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Like Tracie said, keeping Jerry hydrated is essential. I would offer water with the dropper, then give a bath, and risk the handling. I'm so sorry Tom didn't make it.

Thank you, it was upsetting. I so wanted to help him.

Jerry made it through the night, though I cannot say whether he has come out of the humid hide or not.
I offered him some more water this morning but he wouldn't like any up for me.
I aso switched him over to the 20 gallon.

That brought his temperature up a bit. It's now reading 95.5
Here's a picture of the new set up.



I'm not sure what temperature I want his hot spot to be at though. Is it a good temp right now, or is a little higher fine too?
I've got a 100w bulb in there currently, but if it's too warm I do also have a 75w standing by.

What temperature should a sick baby leo be at?

Also, I'm getting confused about the UTH. Do I need to get one or not?
I've already spent more than I was planning to on helping these guys, but if they need it I will get one.
Where I'm getting confused is the 'belly heat' . Does the bulb not heat the tile (where the thermometer currently is sitting), by effect providing him with belly heat?

If the thermometer which is sitting on the tile is reading 95.5, is the floor not that temperature?

If someone could clear that up for me, I would be really greatful.

Also, if I do need to purchase a UTH, is the zoo med brand ok?
Thanks alot.

First, I want to direct you to a LG site that is active:
http://www.geckosunlimited.com

this is a great site, and i recommend posting something there, theyre a good crowd.

I highly recommend a UTH for your leopard gecko. Leopard geckos need belly heat. The reason you could be seeing undigested food is because you dont have a UTH, they need heat on their stomachs to digest their meals. I forget what brand mine is but if you can get a thermostat you should, UTHs can go up to 110-120 degrees which is far too hot for any leo and can cause burns on his belly.

You probably wont even need another heat source unless you live in a cold area. You can add a low power overhead heat just to get the air temperature if needed, but mine stays around 75-81f even in winter, it depends on your environment and home i suppose.

Here's the temps you should aim for:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm side
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Make sure you put your water on the cool side so it doesnt create humidity in the tank.


You need to keep them hydrated, make sure your temperatures are not too high, you'll know in the future because they usually become pretty lethargic, though i know you have a sick baby right now so thats not helpful atm. I imagine he cant drink water on his own so you may have to bathe him.

If they wont lick the pedialite/baby food/etc. from the dropper it could be because he is too weak to do it, you should invest in a syringe if you havent and try putting a tiny bit in his mouth. force feeding may stress him out and im not sure if you should do that or not but yeah. I recommend asking others about that.
If/when he recovers[hopefully when!] i suggest feeding him waxworms and even consider feeding him a pinkie mouse to get some meat on his bones.


You should try to get him to the vet asap to make sure he has no parasites too, and they may be able to give you something to feed him.

I will be sending you both well wishes, i am sorry one did not make it let us know how he goes.

ps. Here is a huge, excellent care sheet on leopard geckos which is great to bookmark.
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-macularius-demo-video-4-jan-2013-update.html

Hello,

That is great news Jerry is hanging in there right now.
The tank, overall only needs to be an ambient temperature of around 75-80 or so, for leos. His "hot spot" only should run in a range of 85-95, but no higher. So you could probably decrease the basking wattage a little & use either a heating pad on low, underneath of the tank, or the Zoomed undertank heater.
They do need some belly heat to help with digestion & it helps to release humidity as well on the warm end. I normally placed the moist humid hide over part of the under tank heater.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

Hello everyone,
Jerry is doing a little better.
I switched him over to the 20 gallon and put a 75w bulb on him. I haven't yet gotten an UTH, but the temperatures are good right now with the bulb so hopefully he will be okay until I pick one up.

He had a poop yesterday, with no undigested worms. I feel that is a good sign that he was able to digest at least 3 of the waxworms that he ate. I gave him a 10 minute soak yesterday and was able to get him to lick up quite a bit of water.

A few hours later after he still refused the worms I offered him some of the slurry. It took lots of patience and a little convincing, but he ate just over .1ml of the slurry.

He is also regulating his temps, and I'm very happy to see him moving around a bit more.
He's still by no means active, and he still will not open his eyes for any length of time, but I was able to get some food and water and a poop out of him, so I feel that he is improving.

Currently his temperature under the light is 92.2, and his cool end temp is about 78.

Does anyone know why he would be keeping his eyes closed so much?
Is he just really tired? Could the coil UVB bulb that they had on him at the store have damaged his eyes?
Could the red bulb be bothering his eyes somehow?

I also wanted to ask if any one has any experience with Cryptosporidiosis?
I believe that both Tom and Jerry's symptoms could be explained by this, though they could also be explained from them not beeing fed for weeks.

I do have a reptile vet about half an hour from me, though I have never been to them and have no idea who they are. Would it be worth it to get a fecal test done now, or should I wait a few weeks until he's less stressed?

If he is postive for crypto, if I wait to get the fecal done/get medication, does anyone know his chances for survival?

I'm also worried about the other geckos that were in the tank at the petstore. If Tom and Jerry are positive for crypto, surely the others in the tank may be as well.

I'm also wondering if anyone knows of a different medication than paromomycin that will treat crypto. I have heard that in the UK paromomycin is illegal for some reason, and so they treat the crypto with baycox. Since baycox is also used to treat coccidia infections, does anyone know if toltrazuril would also be effective in treating crypto?

I ask because I've had the best results trying my dragons with toltrazuril over other meds, and it had no side effects in them that I could see.

Thanks for your help.

So an update on Jerry.
It's not looking too good right now. His condition has gone downhill rather quickly, though he is not acting quite as lathargic as Tom was.
Hi liver is darkened though, and he barely keeps his eyes open.


This is pretty much what his eyes look like for the most part. He can still open them, he just won't keep them open for more than a few secconds.





I decided to treat him with a very small dose of Toltrazuril today. He got about 0.02 ml diluted with water to about 0.2ml. I can't say exactly how much he ingested, as syringe feeding him has proven rather difficult.
A few hours later I was able to get about .1ml of water and probiotic powder into him as well.

I wish I could have gotten a positive result on a fecal before treating him, but I felt there was just not time to wait and try to get a poo out of him that would be usable.

We will have to wait and see if he can pull through. I do not know either at which point I should euthenize him if he does not pass on his own. I do not want him to be in pain or suffering.

I did also purchase a UTH. I should have it tomorrow.

Again, I would be most appreciative of any advice you guys can offer.

I am sorry that I know nothing about leos. I am sending you and Jerry positive thoughts and prayers.