Need some help/advice.....

seymourduck · Jun 25, 2012

Hello all! I'm new to the forum, but have a few questions. I'm not shy and can admit when I need help, this is one of those times. I've own many pets over the years, mostly birds, dogs, & Iguanas. I've always wanted a bearded dragon, so when a friend was moving and needed to get rid of her two beardies "40 Grit" & "Prada" I jumped at the chance to own them. It's been about 10 months now and all has been going well until about a week ago when I started to work a LOT of hours & wasn't home to watch them as much as usual. It appears that Prada has been chewing on 40 Grit's feet/toes and it's apparent that she's becoming very dominant in their enclosure. She hogs food as well as the best/highest basking spot in the cage and his weight has started to drop. 40 Grit hasn't lost a foot, but one of his toes is 1/2 gone, and he has 4 others that are literally chomped through and barely hanging on. As well, two of his feet seem to be quite swollen, but he can still get around pretty good. I've now separated them and have 40 Grit in a different room from Prada's enclosure. I have soaked all his feet in Betadine, used neosporin on them, and am using newspaper as a substrate in his new enclosure instead of the sand I usually use. I have also purchased some Wax Worms to help put some weight back on. However, I'm curious about those toes. Should I leave them as is until they rip/fall off on their own, or remove them/have them removed? Is it something I can do myself? It appears that any bone in the toes has been bitten through and it's skin holding them on. Anything else I can/should do to help him out? Please help, I feel terrible as these are the coolest creatures EVER!! I can take/post pictures if needed.....

EccentricME · Jun 25, 2012

I would take pictures of the toes and someone more experienced with this can post.
What I can add is if one dragon is showing dominance over the other you need to split them up immediately. If he is already losing weight and losing toes his life could be next. Hope you take this to heart. If you can't get a separate tank maybe finding a home for one of the dragons would be best.

Esther19 · Jun 26, 2012

I answered this post in the health section.

seymourduck · Jun 26, 2012

Thanks Eccentric & Esther....as noted above, I have already separated them and put the two enclosures in different rooms where they cannot see each other....I will post pics this evening & keep you all updated.

seymourduck · Jun 26, 2012

EccentricME":3vuqm6fq said:
I would take pictures of the toes and someone more experienced with this can post.
What I can add is if one dragon is showing dominance over the other you need to split them up immediately. If he is already losing weight and losing toes his life could be next. Hope you take this to heart. If you can't get a separate tank maybe finding a home for one of the dragons would be best.

So I just wanted to give a quick update....I've not had time to take pics as I was at work all day, but my better half took the day off of work to help tend to 40Grit for me. I had an empty 30 gallon aquarium that I decided to use as a makeshift home for now to keep him separated from Prada. One problem....no lid, no lights, & no money til Friday. Called a very well known exotics vet in the area and they said to keep doing what we're doing, that they could give him antibiotics, but they would be useless if his body temp & living area were not up to par. So we borrowed cash from the in-laws and purchased a lid, a 160W PowerSun Mercury Vapor UVB lamp, an Exo Terra 100W Professional Series Ceramic Heat Emitter, & a ReptiTemp Digital Infrared Thermometer. Any feedback on the above products? They were all recommended by the vet, but curious about people's experience with them...Vet said to monitor his feet closely and that as long as he's still eating well and there's no discoloration of the foot/leg, not to worry about the broken toes as they will fall off on their own.

So after setting him up in his new digs, cool side is at 81, hot side is 108, and he's eaten more today than Prada has let him eat in a long time! In three separate feedings he ate 20 Large crickets, 25 small crickets, & 40 Wax Worms, plus veggies. He would have eaten more but I ran out. Will have to get some more tomorrow....He seems to be moving around ok with the exception of his front left foot, it's obvious that the two broken toes are causing him pain. The swelling in the two feet that were attacked the worst doesn't look better, but also doesn't look worse either. I'm not quite sure if the skin is discoloring or not, as his feet are still stained blue from the colored Vita-sand we used in the shared enclosure. We are monitoring them closely & continuing with multiple Betadine soaks & Neosporin treatments daily. I will go take pics & post them shortly. Thanks again, and what do you think of the new set up???

seymourduck · Jun 26, 2012

So here is a photo of 40Grit's front left foot. Prada all but removed two of the toes when she bit him. Both are still (barely) attached by just a splinter of bone, which happens to be exposed & can be seen in this picture if you look close. His old enclosure had blue sand substrate, and I believe that along with multiple daily soaks in Betadine is causing the skin to look discolored. I am monitoring it closely in case it's actual discoloration. I've been liberally applying neosporin, hence the oozy look.

seymourduck · Jun 26, 2012

This is 40Grit's right rear foot. This is the one that has me the most worried, though the other one seems to be more painful. Although there is less damage to the toes themselves, the foot is very swollen. I can't tell if it's actually turning color or if it's just a combination of the blue colored sand substrate we had them in previously combined with the Betadine soaks we're doing. The oozy look is due to the neosporin that has been liberally applied to the area. Updates to come soon.

dragonlover3 · Jun 27, 2012

Hi,
It's obvious you care about your little guy. It is wonderful he is eating so well. It is never good to house dragons together, They are solitary, territorial creatures and only come together to mate. When housed together this type of thing eventually happens as one will be dominate and hog the food, take best basking, and attack the other, so keeping the 2 tanks will be best and a 40 gallon is minimum size for an adult.
NO! PLEASE, do not cut the digits off your self! For some injuries like that the fingers/toes will turn black, dry up and fall off...BUT.... Did the vet actually see the hand and foot? IMO those hand and foot wounds need to be seen and treated by a vet. If you can see bone, it is a severe, critical open wound and needs to be closed by a vet ASAP before a systemic infection develops and kills him. Even if you can't see bone those wounds appear open and can cause the same systemic infection. He needs a vet for antibiotic and pain med. He has very bad swelling of both the damaged hand and foot. Reptiles hide pain!.... "He seems to be getting around ok except for his front left foot".... Reptiles hide pain! Can you imagine how much that must hurt for him to even show the pain? If they show pain or weakness in the wild they become lunch. Imagine if this happened to your hand and foot..... he is in bad pain and needs pain med from the vet, he just can't whimper, cry or moan to tell you, he can only limp and hope you understand the only way he can tell you how much it hurts!
That's good you got him off the sand. Sand isn't good at all for bearded dragons but that's for another post.
The equipment you got is fine, This forum only recommends ReptiSun10.0 florescent or Arcadia D3 12% UVB bulbs, but some use the Power Sun with out any problem. The ceramic heat emitter is great. The thermometer is fine. You will want to know 3 temps, the basking surface, the hot end and cool end.
His age dictates the temps. About how old is he?
Using the diluted Betadine and Neosporin is good! You are diluting the Betadine to look like weak tea correct?....full strength Betadine can burn their skin and scales. Never use hydrogen peroxide, it is cytotoxic for the tissue & scales.
Again, it's wonderful you are seeking help for your little guy! I hope this helps!
Amanda!

seymourduck · Jun 27, 2012

dragonlover3":63bbdbw3 said:
Hi,
It's obvious you care about your little guy. It is wonderful he is eating so well. It is never good to house dragons together, They are solitary, territorial creatures and only come together to mate. When housed together this type of thing eventually happens as one will be dominate and hog the food, take best basking, and attack the other, so keeping the 2 tanks will be best and a 40 gallon is minimum size for an adult.
NO! PLEASE, do not cut the digits off your self! For some injuries like that the fingers/toes will turn black, dry up and fall off...BUT.... Did the vet actually see the hand and foot? IMO those hand and foot wounds need to be seen and treated by a vet. If you can see bone, it is a severe, critical open wound and needs to be closed by a vet ASAP before a systemic infection develops and kills him. Even if you can't see bone those wounds appear open and can cause the same systemic infection. He needs a vet for antibiotic and pain med. He has very bad swelling of both the damaged hand and foot. Reptiles hide pain!.... "He seems to be getting around ok except for his front left foot".... Reptiles hide pain! Can you imagine how much that must hurt for him to even show the pain? If they show pain or weakness in the wild they become lunch. Imagine if this happened to your hand and foot..... he is in bad pain and needs pain med from the vet, he just can't whimper, cry or moan to tell you, he can only limp and hope you understand the only way he can tell you how much it hurts!
That's good you got him off the sand. Sand isn't good at all for bearded dragons but that's for another post.
The equipment you got is fine, This forum only recommends ReptiSun10.0 florescent or Arcadia D3 12% UVB bulbs, but some use the Power Sun with out any problem. The ceramic heat emitter is great. The thermometer is fine. You will want to know 3 temps, the basking surface, the hot end and cool end.
His age dictates the temps. About how old is he?
Using the diluted Betadine and Neosporin is good! You are diluting the Betadine to look like weak tea correct?....full strength Betadine can burn their skin and scales. Never use hydrogen peroxide, it is cytotoxic for the tissue & scales.
Again, it's wonderful you are seeking help for your little guy! I hope this helps!
Amanda!

Hey Amanda!

Thanks a bunch for the reply, it's very much appreciated. If I had known not to house them together, I never would have done so in the first place...sometimes I guess you just have to live & learn, unfortunately it was at the expense of my beardie

They were both previously sharing a 60 gal. enclosure. The 40 gal. is going to be very temporary, as it was the only thing I happened to have around at the time & have had to piece together equipment to make it habitable for him. I've already spoke to someone who has a couple 75 gal enclosures and I'm going to get two of them from him on Tues (one for each beardie). I've read many differing opinions about using sand, both good and bad, but as you mentioned that's another post entirely. I've been checking the temp. regularly all day since it's a new setup, and the cool end has been 82*, warm end 90*, basking 98* (I don't currently have a log or anything for him to climb up on in his temporary digs, but will have once he's in his new enclosure next week). I'm not sure of his exact age (is there a way to tell?) but I know he's 3-3 1/2 y.o. I've been doing Betadine soaks 2-3 times daily, diluted to look like weak tea & applying generous amounts of neosporin after each soak. I've heard that peroxide is bad, but thanks for the heads up regardless. I'm going to see if I can borrow money for a vet tomorrow as I'm super broke til payday (borrowed $150 today for lights, warmer, lid, & thermometer) but was reading on another blog about someone with a similar issue. On that particular blog someone had mentioned an antibiotic called Baytril, and I've found a place I can purchase it. Are you familiar with this or know anything about it? I know that it must be administered according to weight, but that's about it. Thanks again!

dragonlover3 · Jun 27, 2012

Hi,
Yes, I'm familiar with Baytril. My 2 rescues who were very sick with respiratory infections were put on it by my vet a few times. You will want a probiotic to give daily while your beardie is taking the antibiotic. BeneBac is one, acidophulis is one, soy yogurt can be used, soy, not dairy. It will help restore the gut flora the antibiotic will kill, it will help the tummy and help keep yeast in check. We have several expert members here, one is Tracie, user name Drache613. She has her own beardies, is experienced and an expert on reptiles, and of course everything beardie, husbandry, health, meds, dosing...see where this is going...lol...right to Tracie. She's my {and many others} "go to " person. She can help you with accurate dosing. It's based on weight so you will need to weigh him for her. She will take a look at those wound photos too. You can get a silkworm enzyme called Serrapeptase. It can help with inflammation. It's very inexpensive and will help make him a bit more comfortable. Ask Tracie about it. It's so good I keep it on hand for my 4 beardies like you would ibuprofen for yourself. You can PM her and ask her questions and to look at your thread. She can help you right out!

Glad you are here!...

Oh, when ya get a minute look up natural habitat of bearded dragons...Australia...called desert due to little rain fall, not because it's a sandy desert,...sure sand can be found...but it's not all sand....Beardies actually live in trees, woodlands, scrub, rocks, they wouldn't need climbing claws for desert living...sand can't be cleaned well...liquid waste absorb into the sand...sand harbors waste, bacteria, worm and parasite eggs....dusts up, inhaled causing respiratory issues and infections....get in the eyes causing eye issues and infections...like living in a cat litter box....guess you know the direction I lean...

Mine are on tile that waste can be wiped totally away with no residue, and lots of fleece for comfort...lol

Amanda

seymourduck · Jun 27, 2012

dragonlover3":2c15xil0 said:
Hi,
Yes, I'm familiar with Baytril. My 2 rescues who were very sick with respiratory infections were put on it by my vet a few times. You will want a probiotic to give daily while your beardie is taking the antibiotic. BeneBac is one, acidophulis is one, soy yogurt can be used, soy, not dairy. It will help restore the gut flora the antibiotic will kill, it will help the tummy and help keep yeast in check. We have several expert members here, one is Tracie, user name Drache613. She has her own beardies, is experienced and an expert on reptiles, and of course everything beardie, husbandry, health, meds, dosing...see where this is going...lol...right to Tracie. She's my {and many others} "go to " person. She can help you with accurate dosing. It's based on weight so you will need to weigh him for her. She will take a look at those wound photos too. You can get a silkworm enzyme called Serrapeptase. It can help with inflammation. It's very inexpensive and will help make him a bit more comfortable. Ask Tracie about it. It's so good I keep it on hand for my 4 beardies like you would ibuprofen for yourself. You can PM her and ask her questions and to look at your thread. She can help you right out!
Glad you are here!...

Oh, when ya get a minute look up natural habitat of bearded dragons...Australia...called desert due to little rain fall, not because it's a sandy desert,...sure sand can be found...but it's not all sand....Beardies actually live in trees, woodlands, scrub, rocks, they wouldn't need climbing claws for desert living...sand can't be cleaned well...liquid waste absorb into the sand...sand harbors waste, bacteria, worm and parasite eggs....dusts up, inhaled causing respiratory issues and infections....get in the eyes causing eye issues and infections...like living in a cat litter box....guess you know the direction I lean... Mine are on tile that waste can be wiped totally away with no residue, and lots of fleece for comfort...lol

Amanda

Thanks for the heads up, I will definitely contact Tracie. I hadn't thought of tile as a bottom for their habitat, but that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the reading material

You don't by chance have a picture of the bottom of your enclosure that you could post do you?

dragonlover3 · Jun 27, 2012

Hi,
How's your little guy doing? I'm glad my reading material got you thinkin'.
Here's the link to my thread here. viewtopic.php?f=49&t=159733
Page 8 has my latest photos. Remember I said lots of fleece for their comfort, I'm certainly not a naturalist...lol.
but you can see the tile in a couple of the photos. It's so easy to clean. If you go to the Board Index and scroll
down to "DIY" you will find lots of enclosures from members here. Enjoy the viewing, there are some amazing
enclosures. I hope your little guy recovers well.
Amanda

seymourduck · Jun 27, 2012

Hi! (this is Mel, Seymourduck's other half). He is still hanging in there. We are desperatly trying to figure out how to get him into the vet. The vet nearby that actually knows about and treats reptiles refuses to work on any kind of payment plan. Hopefully we can get him in today or tomorrow. Swelling didn't look worse this morning but definitely not any better.

seymourduck · Jun 27, 2012

Just some more follow up on 40Grit...Our paychecks arrived at the office today & my boss being aware of the situation called the bank & OK'd the checks to be cashed today instead of friday as dated. Got 40 to the vet for an emergency visit just before they closed. They said it was a good thing we did as they think they can save his feet. The vet said he will lose 4-6 toes for sure, which is what I expected, and that there was a lot of live tissue on his feet, but also lots of swelling and a pretty good infection. It's pretty much gonna be a race between the two antibiotics they're going to use for treatment, and the infection, to see if we keep the feet or not. I will be back at the vet in the morning to pick him up as they are keeping him overnight tonight, so I'll have a better update with all the details sometime tomorrow. Thanks again everyone!

RockHound · Jun 27, 2012

Oh my gosh... Poor guy! Glad to hear you've got a good game plan. He will do just fine with a few missing toes. There are many rescues on here that work with much less.

Good luck in the next few days! Antibiotics work fast so you should see a difference quickly. Be sure to get probiotics for him to minimize the adverse effects on his body and eating habits.

Bummer about all these reptile vets that are so hard to work with. You'd think they'd care more about the animals' welfare than getting the dollars up front. Not like you're going to skip town over a vet bill... but I suppose they have their reasons...

Need some help/advice.....

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