Spike 2 dying... Same symptoms as #1

kjpetriel · Jun 20, 2012

first one lasted 3 months, this one exactly 1 month.

Both very sudden. EXACTLY the same symptoms. Play with him in the morning.. seemed happy health.
Came home in the afternoon... seemed a little less peppy... 6 hours later, mouth breathing and dead.

#1 we thought had been injured when he leaped off my daughters hand. But nothing like that happened with #2.

UV and basking are on timers, and there is a ceramic heater on a thermistat to assure temps don't go below 65.
Temp on basking rock 109, under a half log 85.

The full enclosure is 4'x2', but we have most blocked off waiting for him to get bigger.
So he had 2'x18".
The substrate is ceramic tile.
The crickets are smalls. Dusted with calcium for first feeding. Dusted with vitamins once a week.

By the time I finished writing this, spike 2 had passed. Dawn of another sad day..

The bearded dragon was supposed to help my asbergers son.

Concidering how much money we've spent on everything, I'd like to give this another try. They do bring an awful lot of joy.. But not knowing what happened make it seem foolish.

Washed, chopped, salad every day. Dandilion greens mostly.
Rarely, a little bit of strawberry.

dylanravenj · Jun 20, 2012

I am so sorry for your losses. Are you sure nobody maybe was holding the dragon and dropped it while you weren't around?

earthmarktwo · Jun 20, 2012

Did you buy them from the same breeder/store? Is it at all possible that they were purchased already having some kind of illness? I'm certainly not an expert, so I'm going out on a wing here. Perhaps some kind of parasite has infested your tank, like coccidia? I'm so sorry for your loss, I recently lost my 9 year old blue tongue. It's not easy losing them

Could you have a vet do some kind of autopsy to determine cause of death? That would be the only surefire way to know, and if you intend to get another beardie the cost could be worth it to make sure this doesn't happen again.

ShannyBeard · Jun 20, 2012

earthmarktwo":vuuuet9e said:
Did you buy them from the same breeder/store? Is it at all possible that they were purchased already having some kind of illness? I'm certainly not an expert, so I'm going out on a wing here. Perhaps some kind of parasite has infested your tank, like coccidia? I'm so sorry for your loss, I recently lost my 9 year old blue tongue. It's not easy losing them

Could you have a vet do some kind of autopsy to determine cause of death? That would be the only surefire way to know, and if you intend to get another beardie the cost could be worth it to make sure this doesn't happen again.

I'm sorry about your blue tongue. I have one, too and they are really great reptiles.

I agree with this post - my question was did you get both dragons from the same place?

How old were these dragons?

If they were under 3 months old, then IF you get another one, then please get one that is at least 3 months old next time. They are less apt to die if they are older and well started. It will be easier to care for.

I would certainly advise that you not get another one until you can figure out what is going wrong. I'm sorry for your loss.

:study:

earthmarktwo · Jun 20, 2012

ShannyBeard":34fp65ca said:
I'm sorry about your blue tongue. I have one, too and they are really great reptiles.

I agree with this post - my question was did you get both dragons from the same place?

How old were these dragons?

If they were under 3 months old, then IF you get another one, then please get one that is at least 3 months old next time. They are less apt to die if they are older and well started. It will be easier to care for.

I would certainly advise that you not get another one until you can figure out what is going wrong. I'm sorry for your loss. :study:

Thank you

I miss her every day, she reserved a special place in my heart. She was the first pet & first reptile I ever owned, and she had been with me for half my lifetime! My thoughts are with the OP, losing two in such a short period of time must be a very painful thing.

kjpetriel · Jun 20, 2012

Hi everyone,
Thank you for your concern.
First Spike was from a commercial pet store, the second from a reputable breeder.
Both were happy active in the morning and near death 12 hours later, dead by morning.
We're going to pay for an autopsy to see if he was impacted.

Spike#1 by 3 months, we had been ordering medium crickets. And he seemed not to have a problem. We know he was dropped the day he died.

Spike#2 jumped from my seated knee to the floor three days ago and sprinted across the floor, but seemed fine, no change in mood, active and hungry. But when my wife bought phoenix worms Monday, she didn't notice they were larges when I had been buying smalls.

I also think my kids feed him too many worms. I tell them no more than two or three with his crickets.

Both simply got weaker and weaker very quickly and died. The deaths were exactly the same.

ShannyBeard · Jun 20, 2012

That is really really really weird to lose them both the same way like that. I'd still go with a slightly older dragon if I were you, or get one that is a few years old. They are easier to take care of.

kjpetriel · Jun 20, 2012

Just got back from the trusted, very experienced, reputable breeder. Even the exotic pet Vet suggested this breeder do the autopsy.
When he cut spike open, he was not impacted, but had a lot of gas in the intestinal tract.
Stomach contents was well chewed but all in his upper tract which means he didn’t have time to bask after eating.
Breeder had two thoughts…
#1 Cage too hot… Todays outside temp is even worse than yesterday so I’ll take readings. However the basking area has always been around 109 ->115 degree. And the shady area is about 75-80 during the day.
#2 Feeding to close to lights out. Apparently they need to bask to digest food and feeding him too close to lights out does not allow him to digest the food and it rots in his system. After evening feeding, DW likes to have him out on her knee/chest/head at night while the family watches TV.
Breeder suggestions:
1- In NH, when you have a hot day, it is also very humid (Today 92 degrees and almost 60% humidity). Since they are desert dwellers, they do not do well in humidity. Breeder said to aim for 85-90 in the basking area and 70 in the shade for baby as a temp/humidity compromise.
2- Stop feeding around 4:30p.
3- Keep him in the tank FOR AT LEAST two hours after feeding so he can bask.
4- Go back to 10 gallon tank until he is 6 months old.

ShannyBeard · Jun 20, 2012

kjpetriel":3si82z6e said:
Just got back from the trusted, very experienced, reputable breeder. Even the exotic pet Vet suggested this breeder do the autopsy.
When he cut spike open, he was not impacted, but had a lot of gas in the intestinal tract.
Stomach contents was well chewed but all in his upper tract which means he didn’t have time to bask after eating.
Breeder had two thoughts…
#1 Cage too hot… Todays outside temp is even worse than yesterday so I’ll take readings. However the basking area has always been around 109 ->115 degree. And the shady area is about 75-80 during the day.
#2 Feeding to close to lights out. Apparently they need to bask to digest food and feeding him too close to lights out does not allow him to digest the food and it rots in his system. After evening feeding, DW likes to have him out on her knee/chest/head at night while the family watches TV.
Breeder suggestions:
1- In NH, when you have a hot day, it is also very humid (Today 92 degrees and almost 60% humidity). Since they are desert dwellers, they do not do well in humidity. Breeder said to aim for
85-90 in the basking area and 70 in the shade for baby as a temp/humidity compromise.
2- Stop feeding around 4:30p.
3- Keep him in the tank FOR AT LEAST two hours after feeding so he can bask.
4- Go back to 10 gallon tank until he is 6 months old.

All of that sounds reasonable, but I wonder about going back to a 10 gallon tank. A smaller tank gets hot easily. Did he tell you how to go back to the 10 gallon with respect to wattage to use and measuring the temps?

What do you measure your temps with? 109-115 is waaaay hotter than we keep our dragons basking spot. And we don't have such a wide range of temps. It stays a constant, consistent temp for them.

kjpetriel · Jun 20, 2012

He said that my tank is too big for a little guy litke that. As such it will be easier to keep the small tank at a lower but reasonable temp. Let's face it, I'm not going to be able to have a 20 degree difference inside a 10 gallon tank.

I hate the ten gallon, because of the balancing act of removing the lights to remove the screen so I can feed/clean/play/house keep. I might try to figure out how to hang the lamps on retractable chords from the ceiling so I don't break any more bulbs. We used to slide the cover half off, but that melted the rim of the tank.
:banghead:

ShannyBeard · Jun 20, 2012

Ah yes, the challenges of dealing with tank lids and screens. I am the queen of melting vivs. :angry5:

RainMaiden · Jun 20, 2012

I'm so sorry for your losses. That is great that the breeder was able to help give you an idea of what might have happened though. It sounds like baby Bearded Dragons are quite sensitive and cannot handle care mistakes like older dragons can. You wouldn't think that feeding too late in the evening or temps being a bit too high would kill them so quickly. I agree with the other members who recommended your next beardie be an older one.

kjpetriel · Jun 21, 2012

There are still 4 available from a clutch that hatched at the same time. I'm going to go down tonight and study the 10 gallon tank they are currently in and replicate it before picking him up tomorrow. I have no tolerance for any more mistakes.

Having read several other posts in the ER section, I've been wondering about upper respritory infections.

One post described what I saw perfectly. Laying on the bottom of the tank sighing to breath. In this case it was an upper respritory infection that was cured by antibiotics. In the post I read, the symptoms where there for days, not hours..
I have two reasons for suspectnig this:

#1 My kids use WAY too much calcium powder and just dump it and the crickets into the viv. I dump the power and crickets into a plastic drinking glass, then use a spoon to chase the crickets out without making a mess. Until right now, I've concidered it just a waste of calcium and a mess... MAYBE the excess powder got into his lungs?

#2 The viv gets a basic cleanning (poops and excess calcium) Monday and Thurs, and gets emptied and sanitized Saturday morning (before Cartoons). While we wait for the tank to air out and dry we give the beardy a bath. Is that cleanning schedule often enough?

#3 While the viv I built is by no means air tight, I did make the vent holes slightly smaller than recommended. Again, I was thinking about trying to keep the viv warm for our 50 degree bedrooms in the winter.

ShannyBeard · Jun 21, 2012

kjpetriel":5blmq8xp said:
There are still 4 available from a clutch that hatched at the same time. I'm going to go down tonight and study the 10 gallon tank they are currently in and replicate it before picking him up tomorrow. I have no tolerance for any more mistakes.

Having read several other posts in the ER section, I've been wondering about upper respritory infections.

One post described what I saw perfectly. Laying on the bottom of the tank sighing to breath. In this case it was an upper respritory infection that was cured by antibiotics. In the post I read, the symptoms where there for days, not hours..
I have two reasons for suspectnig this:

#1 My kids use WAY too much calcium powder and just dump it and the crickets into the viv. I dump the power and crickets into a plastic drinking glass, then use a spoon to chase the crickets out without making a mess. Until right now, I've concidered it just a waste of calcium and a mess... MAYBE the
excess powder got into his lungs?

#2 The viv gets a basic cleanning (poops and excess calcium) Monday and Thurs, and gets emptied and sanitized Saturday morning (before Cartoons). While we wait for the tank to air out and dry we give the beardy a bath. Is that cleanning schedule often enough?

#3 While the viv I built is by no means air tight, I did make the vent holes slightly smaller than recommended. Again, I was thinking about trying to keep the viv warm for our 50 degree bedrooms in the winter.

I don't see how the calcium powder could have caused this. I do believe babies need more careful care than children can give. I'd still recommend that you get an older beardie, maybe 6 months old or older if children will be handling or participating in their care.

Your cleaning schedule seems fine to me.

What do you measure the humidity inside of the viv with? What was the humidity running in the week to two weeks before your beardies died? What kind of thermometer do you have?

kjpetriel · Jun 21, 2012

We haven't been measuring humidity since there is nothing we can do to lower it.
The temp/humidity I stated way above was the outdoor conditions stated by the weather channel.

Breeder would prefer that we measure temp with a wheel type thermometer instead of a digital. But my digital is a calibrated industrial thermometer, so I'm not sure how much better you can get.

Spike 2 dying... Same symptoms as #1

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