Afraid my baby is dying...

Was given a baby beardie (Roja) 3 days ago by someone who did not know what kind of lizard it was. I was told initially that it was a desert swift.

She was in a 10 gallon tank, on the crushed walnut, in a basement with no light or heat for almost a month from the date of purchase. (the purchaser had gotten very ill and was hospitalized within a few days after bringing her home). I don't know what age they normally sell them from petstores. She was purchased from Petsmart.

So she sat in a house for almost 4 weeks with very little food and no heat/light.

I took her in, got a 50 watt neodymium basking bulb for the hot end, which has been keeping it between 90-105 degrees and a Zilla halogen/fluorescent combo for UV and night heat. The combo is on the other end near the water and food and stays in the 80's.

She had only eaten a few crickets and had no other food in the 4 weeks before I got her. She was very healthy seeming, despite the hard beginning. Feisty, quick, eating well. Didn't seem too skinny. Bright eyes. Inquisitive. She ate some ants and spiders and a couple grasshoppers the first 2 days I had her (still thinking she was a desert swift which eats literally anything) then once I realized she was a beardie I went to a petstore and asked for the best food for a baby beardie and because all the crickets they had at the time were bigger than her entire head, we were given mealworms and calcium powder. I've been giving her fresh veggies daily too, although she never seemed too interested.

She ate 3 or 4 mealworms yesterday afternoon after I brought them home, then another 2 this morning.

She was fine this morning, then suddenly took a rapid downturn. She is barely moving and has had her eyes closed since about noon. I read a bunch and figured she may be impacted from not only the substrate she's been on (she's on papertowels now) but I also read mealworms are bad for babies because of the exoskeleton.

I tried to give her a warm bath but she is so tiny still. I don't know how old they are when they get sold, I'm guessing 5 weeks maybe? Then she was in the bad situation for another 4. I've had her since Sunday. She she must be 10 weeks old now... but she is very very small. I couldn't really give her a bath because she freaks out in the water and tries to run. (it was the most movement she had all day). I made sure it was warm and not too deep, but I think it just stressed her out even more. She's too tiny for me to rub her belly.

So... when you are dealing with a baby this small.. and a possible overeat situation or impaction... what can I do? Try to forcefeed her some applesauce? Olive oil? more warm baths even if she is freaking out and trying to get away?

HELP!

When I first brought her home on Sunday: Alert, head up, eating well, climbing, jumping, running:
<- (see how tiny she is still? and has to be at least 10 weeks old.. Can someone help me guess her age?)

Today: <- no bueno. ;(

I'm sorry to hear about Roja! I doubt the issues could be from the strange bugs, but you might factor it in if she ate them recently (pesticides, germs, impaction, etc). I would imagine it's impaction. The walnut shells, random bugs, and mealworms could all factor towards it. I would try feeding her either Canned pumpkin (Not spiced pie filling or anything, just plain pumpkin) possibly mixed with some olive oil, or apple sauce/baby food mixed with olive oil. Keep giving her warm baths and just try to lightly rub her tummy. I know she's really small, but use your pinky or tip of your finger to gently massage. just get the food, baths, and massages going and hope for the best! If worst comes to worst you could try going to a vet, but she's is so tiny so I doubt they would do anything. Just keep trying to help her through it! Good luck!

Hello,

Please please please turn your Zilla tube UVB light off, immediately.
That is what is wrong I am afraid. That light is producing low wavelength UVB which is harming your baby.
Just leave the basking light on for now, with NO UVB for the time being. You will need to take that light back & get your money back if possible. You will need to order the Reptisun 10 tube bulb, instead. You can purchase it from here:
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/11442-504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10-0-uvb-bulb.html

Go ahead & give the soft foods as directed, in case he could also be impacted. Good she is on paper towels now. She is a bearded dragon species.
Try getting some phoenix worms instead of mealworms they do not cause impaction issues. Small crickets are good feeders, too.
Please let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

Oh wow.. Thank you Tracie!

It's this: http://www.petco.com/product/108364/Zilla-Desert-Series-Halogen/Fluorescent-Combo-Dome-for-Reptiles.aspx with the blue bulb.

What is it that is damaging? Can you explain how? I had no idea! I feel so horrible.

Yes I too would like to know why that certain light is so damaging.

Gave her a warm bath. It did stress her out.. she jumped off my finger and was "swimming" super fast to get away. (she was in a bowl so there was nowhere to go). When i got her back on my finger she just laid her head down and closed her eyes and stopped moving.

I rubbed her tummy really gently downwards.

Then suddenly.. I noticed a tiny poo.. half brown half white.

I took her out and put her back on the basking rock to warm up. She just laid all the way down and closed her eyes.

I mashed some apple and tried to see if she'd take it. Nothing. I rubbed it lightly over her lips and she didnt' even open her eyes.

I don't know what else to do.

Hello! Sorry to hear your little one is not doing too well.
Did you remove the Zilla compact bulb as Tracie suggested? Those particular bulbs have been associated with PKC(Photo-Kerato Conjunctivitis) in beardies, which is a painful eye condition, due to the type of uv that bulb is putting out.
I noticed you mentioned a blue bulb. Is this your heat bulb? The basking/heat bulb should be a bright white light. This not only protects the beardies eyes from harmful uv, but also simulates natural sunlight. You can use an ordinary bright white household bulb for this.
Have you been able to pick up any babyfood? Since she did go to the bathroom for you, she may be ready for a little protein, just to get her strength back up. I would stay away from live feeders at the moment and try some babyfood. You can get either turkey or chicken babyfood(all natural), add a little water to it to thin and syringe feed your beardie. Try dropping a little on her nose to see if she licks it off. She is probably very weak right now, so be persistent with the feeding, but don't force it. Try not to give her too much at one time. You don't want her to aspirate it into her lungs.
Do keep up with the baths for hydration and in case she has anymore walnut/mealworms in her.

Hello,

How is your baby doing this morning?
I am sure that the bath did stress him out. If you find it is just too much stress, then, go ahead & skip the baths but try to get oral fluids & food into him very very carefully so he doesn't aspirate any as Dawn suggested.
The Zilla combo light, is it a heat light & UVB all in one as a big basking flood light, OR a tube bulb or compact/coil light with a halogen type of basking ilght?
Photo-kerato-conjunctivitis is caused by damaging UVC or low wavelength levels of UVB which should not be emitted from any UVB light that is for human, mammal or reptile use. These lights, as well as some others have been causing these issues because the wrong type of glass was & is still being used which is allowing the short wavelength through the glass, emitting the UVC when it should be blocked with the proper type of glass & phosphor combination.
In nature, our atmosphere blocks the UVC for the most part, thus, the UV index warnings tell us how "strong" the UVB is so we know when to avoid being outside & so do the reptiles by their 3rd or parietal eye sensor on top of their heads.
That is pretty much it in a nutshell, as to why they are causing damage & what is happening to your dragon.
What he needs right now is just a basic, bright white basking light such as a regular household light bulb, or a lower wattage halogen flood or spot light such as a 50 or 60 watt, placed above him for about 1-2 week time period. This will be fine while you are waiting for the Reptisun 10 to come in.

Please let us know how he is doing today.
Tracie

Drache613":1zjt4oxd said:

Hello,

How is your baby doing this morning?
I am sure that the bath did stress him out. If you find it is just too much stress, then, go ahead & skip the baths but try to get oral fluids & food into him very very carefully so he doesn't aspirate any as Dawn suggested.
The Zilla combo light, is it a heat light & UVB all in one as a big basking flood light, OR a tube bulb or compact/coil light with a halogen type of basking ilght?
Photo-kerato-conjunctivitis is caused by damaging UVC or low wavelength levels of UVB which should not be emitted from any UVB light that is for human, mammal or reptile use. These lights, as well as some others have been causing these issues because the wrong type of glass was & is still being used which is allowing the short wavelength through the glass, emitting the UVC when it should be blocked with the proper type of glass & phosphor combination.
In nature, our atmosphere blocks the UVC for the most part, thus, the UV index warnings tell us how "strong" the UVB is so we know when to avoid being outside & so do the reptiles by their 3rd or parietal eye sensor on top of their heads.
That is pretty much it in a nutshell, as to why they are causing damage & what is happening to your dragon.
What he needs right now is just a basic, bright white basking light such as a regular household light bulb, or a lower wattage halogen flood or spot light such as a 50 or 60 watt, placed above him for about 1-2 week time period. This will be fine while you are waiting for the Reptisun 10 to come in.

Please let us know how he is doing today.
Tracie

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Hi Tracie,

Thanks for the details. The craziest part of this to me is that the little guy survived a cold, dark, no food 4 weeks then the 3rd day of me "saving" her... she starts to die.

Maybe its the shock of all of a sudden having all the light. She seemed to be so happy the first 2 days.

Right before I left for work I peeked in at her and her head was up high. Great sign! She still doesn't seem to want to eat and won't open her mouth or even try to lick anything. As I said above I put mashed apple on the tip of her nose and got zero response. Mouth clamped shut.

I'm just hoping it a mixture of stress and big bugs. (those grasshoppers and spiders and then the mealworms). I'm going to try to buy some more crickets today and see if they have tiny ones.

Are ants okay for her?

I think I linked the light above, but here it is again: http://www.zilla-rules.com/products/combo-dome.htm

Thanks again! What a cool community this is!
http://www.zilla-rules.com/products/combo-dome.htm

Hi, sorry to hear about your little baby. I agree with the others to leave the UVB light turned off and only have a heat bulb on her. It does indeed sound like that UVB caused a good portion of the decline. What size tank is she in now? Could you fill us in on the type of thermometer you're using, is it a strip, round gauge dial, digital with a probe end or temperature gun? If it's anything OTHER than a digital with a long wire & probe end or a temperature gun, the temps can be as much as 20 degrees off so it's critical that an accurate way of reading temps is used. Since she went without heat for so long, it's important to increase the temperatures gradually because if they are too hot, it can cause rapid dehydration which is devastating for a baby that small.

PLEASE DON'T FEED ANY ANTS!! Rather than feeding any live feeders at all, it would be best to feed chicken or turkey baby food mixed with squash baby food and as Dawn mentioned, add a little water to thin it. It might take a few minutes to get the idea of licking it off her nose but once she does, she should really like it. The chicken will help with protein intake and should help give her a boost too.

Please let us know how she is when you come home.

She was laying on her little log with her head down, eyes closed and back legs hanging over each side just dangling. When I came in she heard me and opened her eyes.. slowly stood up.

Didn't look like she ate anything all day, and there was no poo. I got her out and gave her a warm bath. She tried to swim away in a panic, but I got her calmed down. Stroked her belly. It didn't work for poo this time.

Gave her a little ground turkey.. rubbed it on her nose. She is just clamped shut. Doesn't seem to want anything. I tried some apple sauce too. She is just completely uninterested.

She seems to have a little more energy then yesterday.. at least she is holding her head up a little bit.

What does the wrong UVB actually do? How would it create the symptoms she has now? I'm still confused about how that would effect her in this way. I thought the photokeratoconjunctivitis is an eye issue. Would that effect her strength, ability to eat, ability to hold her head up even with no signs of damaged eyes?

btw.. I turned that Zilla desert 50 combo dome off right after Tracie told me too yesterday and it's been off since. The more I read about it, there seem to have been reports of adverse effects going back at least 3-4 years! HOW are they still selling it and how are national petstore chains recommending them?? :?: :shock: :?:

Thoughts anyone?

Here's a current picture. See how she is hanging her head?



That's only as high as she'll hold it. Its an improvement from yesterday when she couldn't even keep it up at all and wouldn't open her eyes:

She does look better than yesterday. The bad UVB's do indeed cause eye problems that feel like sand in their eyes constantly and is very painful. Can also cause lethargy, loss of appetite and I've even heard of imbalance issues. You mentioned that she was keeping her eyes closed and if you look closely in both of the pictures, her eyes do indeed look puffy and affected by it.

You really need to get some food into her. Did you mix a little of the chicken baby food with squash and add a little water? It also makes it more pleasing to them to heat in the microwave for a few seconds to take the chill off. It may take her a few minutes to get the idea to lick off her nose, but if she won't then you're going to have to very gently lift down on the side of her mouth and squirt a small amount in just inside of her lower lip. She can't go on much longer without any protein since she is so tiny and frail.

Could you please respond to this?

What size tank is she in now? Could you fill us in on the type of thermometer you're using, is it a strip, round gauge dial, digital with a probe end or temperature gun? If it's anything OTHER than a digital with a long wire & probe end or a temperature gun, the temps can be as much as 20 degrees off so it's critical that an accurate way of reading temps is used. Since she went without heat for so long, it's important to increase the temperatures gradually because if they are too hot, it can cause rapid dehydration which is devastating for a baby that small.

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Diane,

Thank you! I haven't had time tonight to get to the store to get what I need for the mixture to feed her. I tried giving her a little ground turkey and applesauce and it was a no-go. Clamped shut mouth.

I had someone drop off some little crickets a little while ago. I dusted and dropped 2 in the tank to see her reaction. She has really perked up in the last 15 mins! Running around. Licking the air and licking logs and rocks. She was excited by the movement of the crickets although she is not trying to eat them yet. Just seems very intrigued and has opened her mouth wide a few times and puffed up her throat. She's watching them closely and will crawl fast towards them for a moment then seem to ignore them. Their presence has really perked her up but one actually crawled up her back and sat on her head for about a minute! We couldn't stop laughing it looked so funny. Then it crawled away and she licked her lips and tilted her head to the side and watched it leave.

She is basking right now and crawled up the log herself. HUGE change.

I think she'll probably eat them tonight. She's gearing up I can tell.

Could you please respond to this?

What size tank is she in now? Could you fill us in on the type of thermometer you're using, is it a strip, round gauge dial, digital with a probe end or temperature gun? If it's anything OTHER than a digital with a long wire & probe end or a temperature gun, the temps can be as much as 20 degrees off so it's critical that an accurate way of reading temps is used. Since she went without heat for so long, it's important to increase the temperatures gradually because if they are too hot, it can cause rapid dehydration which is devastating for a baby that small.

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Yes, sorry. Didn't see this earlier.

I just got her on Saturday and haven't had a chance to get all the right stuff. I've been researching and reading a lot and learning what we need. Right now there is only a strip thermometer at the moment. I'll be investing in a probe soon. I wanted to see if she made it past this traumatic situation before I spent more money. The strips read between 95-110 in the basking end and 85-95 in the water/food end.

I'm going to get the Reptisun 10 this weekend and the basking light I already have is a 50 watt neodymium.

She's in a 10 gallon right now. She's about 5" long is all. When do you think I'll have to get a bigger tank?

One more question.. until I get the Reptisun... do I need to leave the basking light on 24 hours? The room temp is low 70's at night.

Look who's up!!!

I can't BELIEVE what a turnaround since turning off that blinkity blank Zilla light.. WOW. Add us to the list of official reports of adverse effects. I can't believe this!

Its good she was soo interested, but make sure not to leave feeders in the tank either overnight or for long periods. Beardies are very heavy sleepers and crix like to nibble on them, the last thing you want atm is an infected bite wound ontop of everything!

The stick on strip is on taking the tamp of the glass its stuck to, ill bet my bottom dollar the basking spot is actually too high. Please get a digital thermometer today, they are only about $12 from wallmart but the overall health of your new baby really depends on having acurite temps.

Im also unsure about the neodymium bulb, i think i remember some issues when using that as a basking bulb, but it was a converstaion a few years ago, something about the element and light refraction. Stick to the normal household bulbs (not the engery saving kind)

And no, the basking and UVB needs to be on 12-14 hours during the day and nothing at night. 70c is perfect for a nighttime temp, but again this could be inaccurite, the glass of the tank is 70 at night.

Hello!

GREAT great news I see!
Thanks Diane for joining.
That is incredible, what a huge turnaround for your little one. You will most definitely need to upgrade his tank to at least a 30 gallon for better temperature control.
So, he is eating now!
Well, to answer your question as to why it affected him in that manner, is as Diane had explained his eyes felt like they had sand in them & it was basically like a sunburn on the cornea. Also, emitting UVC will cause nausea & sometimes vomiting when exposed even to low levels of it. That type of wavelength will kill living cells & damage DNA. I do not know why Zilla/ESU continues to put out such terrible quality of lights, it is bothersome & very frustrating.
Definitely try to get the temp gun or digital probe as suggested because the temperatures are very important for his overall health & well being. At least he is eating now, that is wonderful.

Tracie