hormone imbalance, hermaphrodite or ??

Ok, I saw something really weird today. My girl pig is suspected gravid, she is really, really fat but so far, no signs of laying. 1-2 times a day she completely freaks out wanting to get to Crimm, my old male. I usually give in and put her in his cage for a few minutes, it settles her down and crimm is unable to mate so I have no concerns about them being together.

I put her in his cage about 15 minutes ago. There was the usual headbobbing and bowing, then they preceded to lay next to each other and bask. This is normal behavior when they are together. All of a sudden I heard activity from the cage and looked over to see Pig on top of Crimm with his neck in her mouth. She was bouncing him around and doing the whole butt wriggle, trying to mate thing. I went over, picked her up and checked her underside. Sure enough her vent was swollen and open, just like a males before they actual breeding act but of course, there was no hemipens as Pig is in fact, female.

I sat her back down next to crimm and she proceeded to run over to crimm's blanky and give it a good humping. Dang weirdest thing I've ever seen. I kept check her bottom, just in case a hemipens would appear but it never did. I have often wondered if she was different in regards to her gender. She looks female but just barely so, she really looks more gender neutral. She has appears gravid for over a month now but there doesn't seem to be eggs, her tummy is purely squishy. Is it possible for a dragon to have a phantom pregnancy?
She displays female mating behavior, bowing and lifting her rump/tail but then today she took on a males roll. There have been other instances of her rubbing her vent around on a rock or food dish but it was never as frantic as what happened with the blanket today.

I guess my question is, what do I have? Is she just a normal female desperate to breed or could she be hormonally mixed up, even a hermaphrodite?
I know if I breed her and she produced eggs I would know one way or the other but I don't know anyone with a male and my guy is too old to do the deed. Getting a xray to determine whats going on isn't really a option either, vets her won't even run a fecal on a reptile.

Hi Gail,

That is really weird I've never heard of it happening before.

I hope you don't mind me posting just to "bookmark" it, if you will. So I can follow along with the responses with you.

Have you actually felt the eggs inside her? Or is her size what is tipping you off?

-Brandon

No, we never could feel any eggs although she appears gravid due to her size and weight gain. Looking at her, she looks like she should pop any day now.

I did find a really interesting article on "hot" females who are actually genetically male. It mention how often, eggss incubated at high temps will produce deformed babies. Pig had several deformed siblings, really makes me wonder if this could be her issue. Interesting read for anyone who is interested in genetics.

http://www.hadesdragons.co.uk/tdsr-bd.html

Wow, what an interesting read. I can't help with your problem, that's definitely a first for me, but thanks for that article.

There is so much we just don't know about these guys, I was really glad to find that article. I tried putting Pig back in with Crimm a little while ago and she went full blown aggressive, tried biting chunks from his tail/back end. She is done visiting Crimm now, she is just too violent.

I double and triple checked her gender today, she has a completely smooth tail. No bumps or bulges of any kind, even her femoral pores are almost non existent.

I have experienced this with 2 separate pairs of my BDs. A male & female & 2 females.

The first experience was shortly after acquiring my 2 rescues, Dinah (F) & Arrow (M). When I first acquired them I was told that they were both females & on visual check did indeed appear to be. To this day Arrow still appears female, at least no noticeable bumps other than a very slight almost imperceptible rise where the 'Female' bump should be.

One evening I heard what, after the next 2 days, got to be a very familiar commotion sound in their enclosure. When I looked in the enclosure, there was Dinah, who I was positive to be female, as she had laid infertile eggs some time prior to this, in full mount on Arrow, tails intertwined, serious dry humping. This activity continued periodically through the next day. I thought, omg I have 'Lizbians'. The following day after that, I once again, heard the familiar commotion, only this time the roles were reversed, with Arrow mounting Dinah in full lock, where on closer inspection to my surprise I could see his 'Junk' in action. Proving that he was indeed Male. Upon dismount, I immediately separated them permanently. 16 days later Dinah laid some messed up infertile eggs, which obviously were not a result of the coupling.

The second time was with Sandy & Nitro, 2 females. It only happened on the one occasion, where Sandy was in full mount, tails intertwined, again serious dry humping. This was shortlived though, Nitro worked her way out from under Sandy, moved to the far end of the enclosure. Sandy started following her, dragging her bottom on the floor wiggling in a side to side motion. She then climbed on a rock & start rubbing herself on it, side to side with a humping motion also. Shortly after that she settled down & it never happened again. A 'Lizbian' experimental stage, I guess :roll: .

I too questioned this on several forums, to find that this is not as uncommon as it sounds. That a few others had experienced similar attempted couplings, between 2 Females & roles reversed Female on Male. But received no factual explanations as to 'Why'?

Had to share that, you aren't the only one :lol: .

Is Pig digging around, frantically glass/wall climbing? Some Females will periodically lay infertile eggs without ever having been with a male. Dinah does just about yearly, sometimes more often. Once 3 infertile clutches within a years time. Infertile eggs are very difficult to feel, if possible at all in most females, as they are not 'Plump' like fertile ones.

If you suspect her of being gravid, you should set up a lay bin for her, if she is climbing walls or digging around.

Good Luck,

Well I'm glad its happened to others. Pig also does the dragging her bottom and wriggling while she walks thing, really odd looking. Yes, she has been frantically glass dancing for about two weeks now but no digging and she has had a lay box for almost 4 weeks.

Have you seen any aggression from the females who did the humping? Its almost like she got mad at Crimm for not being able to do the deed. He will head bob and grab her neck but by then he is too pooped out to try anything further.

In My situation, Dinah has always been the more Dominant one, had always been my largest BD until about a year ago, when Sandy surpassed her in weight & size. Both in the 20", 650-700+g range. They have all been housed separately for quite some time now (Years) and only have physical access to each other on the rare occasion when I cut them all loose to run around after their soaks. During which time I am very vigilant at keeping their distance. So I really don't have an answer to your last mentioned scenario. Sorry.

:laughhard: Lizbians!!

I found a more recent article in one of my databases for this stuff. It's from 2009, but I only have the abstract. When I get the full text, I'll read over it and let you know. This is all very interesting to me, though, I don't know if high temperature incubation and "genetic" differentiation from presented sex necessarily accounts for any/all of these behaviors. Female birds and monkeys and dogs have all been known to be sexually "aggressive" and to show masturbatory behavior, so I don't know why beardies would be any different.

Hey Gail,
Every now and then I run accross this, In the absence of a dominate male a female will take on the role and act just like a male, right up to and including trying to mate. 1 time this led right up to infertile eggs. Thats really all I can tell you about it. Sorry if I took a bit to respond , but im on the road quite a bit now.
T

All this gives me hope that she is normal, just a bit domineering. Any idea why she isn't laying yet? She has been gravid for at 6-7 weeks and still shows no real sign on laying. She glass dances almost non stop and barely eats but hasn't dug at all. Would it get things moving if I did breed her?

Gail,

Can you actually feel the eggs inside her? That's a really long time to be gravid.

Since I keep all my females together, I get about 5 girls a day doing the whole male breeding act all the way to the wiggle. Sometimes if I breed them with a male, it stops instantly, but not always.

No, I can't feel any eggs but her tummy is huge and she has been off food for over two week plus the daily glass dancing is getting crazy.

In my opinion, I think she was ready to breed and her homones were elevated, so she put on weight while increasing her fat stores in preparation. When females are cycling or getting ready to cycle their eggs, they act super restless which would explain the erratic behavior and glass dancing along with wanting to get to your male. You put her in with the male and she displayed typical dominant female breeding behavior all the way to the wiggle. Now that she thinks she may have bred, she might go ahead and let her eggs develop and then want to lay them, fertile or not.

Thats really interesting behavior. Do you think she might have partially developed eggs she is just holding onto? How long can they continue this before it affects health? I weighed her today and she is over 400 grms with a body length of 7".
Would you recommend breeding her to get things kicked into gear? Females are a pain, never will have another.